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33 minutes ago, silver & black said:

Serious question to all of you Pats fans:

Do you honestly think all the rest of us NFL fans should respect your team over the last 20 years? I might get in trouble over this, but I liken this to how Trump is viewed. Strike that..... I will get trouble for that.

How about.............. way too much evidence that points out less than "honerable "intent??? My Raiders said after the BULLSHIT tuck call that it seemed like they knew every play that was called before the snap. Interesting, no? I wonder why?

As I said..... the Pats are/were a very good team. I just question the how and why of it after all the unscrupulous "allegations" over the years.... by many teams, not just the Raiders.

Flame away. I would expect nothing less.

 

 

If the Patriots were truly a good team all these years, they would have an average margin of victory in all of their playoff games and Super Bowls that is greater than 2 points.  I don't think it's a coincidence that every Super Bowl win they've had is by 3 points or less.  Every playoff game is close.  That's because they cheat and steal and rob signals, signs, and deflate footballs however they please to tilt a level playing field to make sure they can squeak out a victory.

There is nothing wrong with your post.  Your arguments are valid. Patriots fans can just go suck it and they can now know what it feels like to have an early off season just like the rest of the NFL teams normally get.  I am hopeful that this is just the start of the downward spiral for that loathsome franchise.  I hope that Bill Belichick spends the next 5 years going 3-13 or worse as the rest of the NFL starts to rip apart his horrible playbook and manners and dish back to him what he's been screwing the rest of the NFL over with for the past 20 years.  Belichick will die old, alone, and with no one at his funeral.  We'll all be sitting around saying, "Sorry Coach, we've moved on to Cincinnati."

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Serious question to all of you Pats fans:
Do you honestly think all the rest of us NFL fans should respect your team over the last 20 years? I might get in trouble over this, but I liken this to how Trump is viewed. Strike that..... I will get trouble for that.
How about.............. way too much evidence that points out less than "honerable "intent??? My Raiders said after the BULLSHIT tuck call that it seemed like they knew every play that was called before the snap. Interesting, no? I wonder why?
As I said..... the Pats are/were a very good team. I just question the how and why of it after all the unscrupulous "allegations" over the years.... by many teams, not just the Raiders.
Flame away. I would expect nothing less.
 
 


I’ll take a shot at this but I grew up in Kansas a Chiefs fan but root for the Pats now that I live in New England. I think the tuck call was BS and the Raiders got screwed and you know any Chiefs fan hates the Raiders. My belief is most Pats fans think they walk on water and have never broken any rules. My household of born and bred Pats fans fall in the middle in that yeah, they have cheated, got caught, accepted the consequences and moved on.

I read an article today how Cower and Shanahan explained how they stole play calls in game and via video but that doesn’t get mentioned. The same article talked about how the Bills opened a gate or something like that to create a wind tunnel when opposing teams are going that direction. NFL caught them but no punishment because they were losing the games anyway.

The Trump analogy is probably pretty good in that you are on one side or the other and it is hard as hell to sway anyone the other way. Growing up a Royals fan I hated the Yankees and living so close to Boston it has only gotten worse but I sure did respect their team during the 90s. Did they cheat by taking steroids? I think the consensus is at minimum Clemens did and probably Petit, but so did a lot of other guys on other teams. Maybe that is where the Pats are, they broke some rules but so do a lot of other teams. Their success has magnified all of this but the guys on top are the ones we criticize the most, maybe that is just human nature. Maybe if the Astros won the WS this year after a 20 year run people would make a bigger deal about them stealing signs.

My best guess is that die hard New England fans could careless if they are respected by anyone else in the league like most other fans would be if it were their team.






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6 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

No one's saying they didn't benefit from a less than stellar division but it's nonsense to suggest that it's the only reason for their success, which some seem to be suggesting.

I posted this earlier in the year as a direct response to the same thing being said.

"People have been saying the Pats' reign is over every year since the 2014 season and they've only won 3 Super Bowls and been to 4 in that time.

Also, the idea that they've only been good over the Brady/Belichick era because of their division is just a flat out myth. In that timeframe, they have a better winning percentage against 4 other divisions than they do their own. Their winning percentages against the AFC and the NFC in that timeframe are practically identical.

Including the Patriots win totals, the AFC East also has the best win percentage for a division in that timeframe. Taking the Patriots wins out of the equation, yes, the AFC East has the lowest win percentage in that timeframe, but something interesting happens when you remove the division winner from every division and look at the win percentages then. The AFC East has the second best win percentage of any division in the league in that timeframe when looking solely at the performance of the 3 teams in each division that didn't win the division.

Going further and removing the best team from each division over that time period puts the AFC East as the 4th most winningest division in football in that timeframe. Far from the worst.

Here's the source: https://patriotsdynasty.info/blog/2019/01-02/myth-easy-afc-east-definitive-guide"

I'm not sure I understand how you think it had no bearing on their success? 
I'm not taking anything away from their accomplishments. I'm saying that the division they played in, more or less..... more, most of the time, allowed them six division wins almost every year. It allowed them home field advantage in the playoffs. It allowed them a first round by every year (I think) except this year. 
I agree that they beat the best to win their SB's, but you can't say the weak division had nothing to do with their #1 seading and home field advantage over the last 20 years.


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This is total BS.  How many other divisions over the past 20 years have seen one team win the division 18 years out of 20?  (NY Jets in 2002, Dolphins in 2008).  Since 2001, the Dolphins and Bills have made the playoffs as a Wildcard twice, with the Jets getting a Wild card 5 times.

Here are the playoff records of the three other AFC East teams since 2001

  • Miami Dolphins 0-3
  • Buffalo Bills 0-2 (including this year)
  • New York Jets 6-6

It was quite a few years ago, but Peter King from SI posted the winning percentages of all four AFC East teams since 2001, and the rest of the AFC East teams didn't even come close to winning as many games as the Patriots did COMBINED.  Basically it's not even debatable that the AFC East is the least competitive division in all of the NFL for the last 20 years.

Basically I will simply say that I look forward to the demise of the Patriots, and them returning to their 1970's status of doormat of the league.  That's where they belong at this point.

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If the Patriots were truly a good team all these years, they would have an average margin of victory in all of their playoff games and Super Bowls that is greater than 2 points.  I don't think it's a coincidence that every Super Bowl win they've had is by 3 points or less.  Every playoff game is close.  That's because they cheat and steal and rob signals, signs, and deflate footballs however they please to tilt a level playing field to make sure they can squeak out a victory.
There is nothing wrong with your post.  Your arguments are valid. Patriots fans can just go suck it and they can now know what it feels like to have an early off season just like the rest of the NFL teams normally get.  I am hopeful that this is just the start of the downward spiral for that loathsome franchise.  I hope that Bill Belichick spends the next 5 years going 3-13 or worse as the rest of the NFL starts to rip apart his horrible playbook and manners and dish back to him what he's been screwing the rest of the NFL over with for the past 20 years.  Belichick will die old, alone, and with no one at his funeral.  We'll all be sitting around saying, "Sorry Coach, we've moved on to Cincinnati."
SB 53 13-3
SB 51 34-28
SB 49 28-24

It's literally only their first 3 titles, the first of which no one even gave them a chance to win, that they won by 3 points each. But sure, it's not like they've blown out the Colts, Broncos, Steelers, Chargers and Titans, among others in the playoffs over the years. It's almost as if Super Bowls and Conference championships are supposed to be hard to win??? And winning by small margins doesn't detract from the fact that they won???

Hate on the Pats all you want. ****** and moan about whatever you want about them, but for crying out loud, get your facts straight.

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Facts aren't BS but think whatever you want.

This is total BS.  How many other divisions over the past 20 years have seen one team win the division 18 years out of 20?  (NY Jets in 2002, Dolphins in 2008).  Since 2001, the Dolphins and Bills have made the playoffs as a Wildcard twice, with the Jets getting a Wild card 5 times.
Here are the playoff records of the three other AFC East teams since 2001
  • Miami Dolphins 0-3
  • Buffalo Bills 0-2 (including this year)
  • New York Jets 6-6
It was quite a few years ago, but Peter King from SI posted the winning percentages of all four AFC East teams since 2001, and the rest of the AFC East teams didn't even come close to winning as many games as the Patriots did COMBINED.  Basically it's not even debatable that the AFC East is the least competitive division in all of the NFL for the last 20 years.
Basically I will simply say that I look forward to the demise of the Patriots, and them returning to their 1970's status of doormat of the league.  That's where they belong at this point.


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1 minute ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Facts aren't BS but think whatever you want.

 


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you replied too quickly to even read my post.  I stand by what I've witnessed for 20 freaking years.

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4 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

I'm not saying it would have been overturned had they reviewed it or that they should have thrown a flag. I just found it odd they didn't even review it as there was a clear push off from Rudolph to create separation. I don't think it would have been a ticky tack call at all, personally. I'm fine with it as a non-call, but I'd have also been fine with it as a flag for OPI as well
 

 

They reviewed it.  There was a pause at the end of the game and a delayed Minnesota celebration while the officials spoke to New York.  There wasn't enough video evidence to warrant an OPI call.

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I read your post before I posted it but nice try. You're dismissing actual statistics that contradict what you feel to be true.

That being said, I'm so beyond done with these conversations. No matter the amount of actual real facts Pats fans can put in front of people like you, none of you are even willing to consider anything other than your own blind hatred over a team being successful for such a long period of time.

you replied too quickly to even read my post.  I stand by what I've witnessed for 20 freaking years.


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5 minutes ago, Middler said:

But again, the Belicheck-Brady dynasty is over whether they like it or not, they lost and deserved to this year, so how much longer do you want to argue about it? 

Well, since they've been cheating....errrr....winning for 20+ years, I figure I can go at least 25-30 years more.  😎

And if you want to talk about childish, just watch ANY Belichick press conference over the past 20+ years. 

Don't worry, "I've moved on to Cincinnati."  🙄

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That's all I got to say 

 

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3 minutes ago, Middler said:

There are so many stupid questions and so many asking the same thing over and over, I don’t blame Belicheck for his press conference behavior over the years. The Pats, and Belicheck in particular, play things close to the vest - I think that’s what drives his non answers for the most part. There have been others like Ditka, Parcells, etc. And though many head coaches act pleasant, many of them give lots of lengthy non answers too. 
 

Pats fans don’t care if you respect the team or not, no one asked you to. But if harping on the Pats makes you feel better about yourself or your team - have at it.

Close to the vest for what on Saturday?  The season was over.  There was nothing to prepare for.  There was nothing to veil or be subversive about.  Be a man, and answer the f'ing questions, no matter how stupid or repetitive they seem to be.  That's part of the job, and any other "professional" would handle it with respect and dignity.  But Belichick has neither respect, grace, manners, humility, or dignity in anything he says or does.  He flips the middle finger at the press with his waste of time pressers, and he went out of his way to wear the ugliest mandated NFL attire on game day so as to give the NFL the middle finger as well.  Everything about this man is rude, condescending, arrogant, belligerent and mean.

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....alright gang.... let's turn the volume down a notch and remember 

THIS IS A GOLF FORUM

it's fine to discuss other things but do if you want to get down to the nitty gritty and argue about coaching styles and behavior please consider a football forum and always READ WHAT YOU WRITE BEFORE HITTING SUBMIT REPLY.... if you are on the other end reading it and it seems offensive or is getting too personal please edit or consider not posting

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11 hours ago, GSwag said:

Basically I will simply say that I look forward to the demise of the Patriots, and them returning to their 1970's status of doormat of the league.  That's where they belong at this point.

I'm not sure I could become a Brady fan even if he ended up in Miami and led them to blowout wins over NE and a return to the Superbowl... well, maybe I could.  I mean, this would be a valid and ultimate test of his GOAT moniker...don't you think?  🙂  

Regarding Belichick's post game monotones, I actually find them just right.  Listening to most of these coaches blather on about this and that, to the redundant and clickbait media questions, is (was) boring.

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29 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

That's all I got to say 

 

IMG_0920.JPG

This is both sad and funny at the same time. Still deciding on which reaction icon to use 🤔.

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As I have said before, I'm not much of an NFL fan.  I watch sporadic coverage during the playoffs but haven't watched a regular season game since before having kids nearly 15 years ago.  With that said, it appears the Patriots "dynasty" is likely coming to an end.  It's been as impressive a run as anything in the history of all professional sports.  My hat's off to Belichick and Brady for accomplishing more in 20 years than anyone ever imagined possible.

Regardless of how anyone may feel about the Patriots, Belichick or Brady, their accomplishments are unprecedented in professional sports.  The closest possible comparison may be the Boston Celtics of the 50's and 60's.  In my opinion, free agency alone renders the Patriots dynasty head and shoulders above the Celtics.  Auerbach and company never had to deal with an ever changing and evolving roster.  They essentially had the exact same roster for 15 years.

I'm certainly not a Patriot's fan but have enormous respect for what the organization has accomplished over the past 20 years.  The level of excellence and consistency is stunning and unprecedented in professional team sports.

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2 hours ago, Middler said:

I’m a Pats fan, and I don’t much care what others think, Pats fans are used to it. No one cares if you respect the Pats. Root for your team, but when fans go out of their way to criticize another team it’s almost childish. Or present selective facts, like the weak division BS, grow up. 9 AFC championships and 6 Super Bowls, and you want to believe it was just cheating?

Tell me what’s good about your team, not what you think is bad about a team you don’t like. Be happy when a team you like wins, but being gleeful about another team losing is childish.

But again, the Belicheck-Brady dynasty is over whether they like it or not, they lost and deserved to this year, so how much longer do you want to argue about it? 

I'm not arguing at all. I just strongly disagree with your position on the weak division. It IS a weak division that most definitely played to the Pat's favor. I'm not sure how you or anyone else can't see/understand that. 

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1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

This is both sad and funny at the same time. Still deciding on which reaction icon to use 🤔.

Its sad on many levels. 

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1 minute ago, tony@CIC said:

Its sad on many levels. 

You're not getting too many tears from this lifelong Miami Dolphins fan 😉.  Let's see which one of us gets Brady 😆.

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1 minute ago, Middler said:

Weak division or not, how did that win them 9 AFC championships and 6 Super Bowls? They had to play the best of every other division more years than not.

I get both of your points, but being able to run roughshod over their division during this run certainly increased their chances of getting postseason bids.  Shifting focus a bit, do you think Brady resigns with NE or gets swooned away by another team?

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14 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

You're not getting too many tears from this lifelong Miami Dolphins fan 😉.  Let's see which one of us gets Brady 😆.

I dunno, I think the Dolphins might finally be getting on the right track again. With 3 first round picks this year, and coach that the players actually seem to respect, y’all could be doing pretty well soon. 

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Wow-

Seahawks win and get one post about a headshot from Clowney.

but the Pats lose and get 6 pages of hatred or defending accusations...

I think the one post of twisted panties was the best encapsulated statement.

 

ok folks, on to round 2!!

49ers by 7 over Minn

Balt by 9 over Tenn

KC by 9-1/2 over Houston

Packers by 4 over Hawks

 

there is always an upset isn’t there? Who will get upset next week?

I pick (duh) the Hawks to beat the Packers, and Minn to beat the 49ers

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, GB13 said:

I dunno, I think the Dolphins might finally be getting on the right track again. With 3 first round picks this year, and coach that the players actually seem to respect, y’all could be doing pretty well soon. 

We (fans) can only hope.  It's been a long, thirsty drought.

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2 minutes ago, Middler said:

For the third time, getting postseason bids does not help you beat anyone from another division. If they'd done it once or twice you'd have an argument, but not with so many wins against all comers. They had to beat the best from other divisions 2-3 times to win 9 AFC titles, and the best of the NFC to win the Super Bowl.

I don't care what he does. He's had a great career, already longer than most, and I hope he retires before he tarnishes his legacy further, he did not play well this years despite a weaker supporting cast. I hope he doesn't go anywhere else, to tarnish his legacy somewhere else. The current Pats dynasty is over whether they like it or not, and I'm a Pats fan.

But you're not taking into consideration that, in a highly competitive division, they might not even get into the playoffs, get home field advantage, get byes and time to heal.

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11 minutes ago, Sluggo42 said:

Wow-

Seahawks win and get one post about a headshot from Clowney.

but the Pats lose and get 6 pages of hatred or defending accusations...

I think the one post of twisted panties was the best encapsulated statement.

 

ok folks, on to round 2!!

49ers by 7 over Minn

Balt by 9 over Tenn

KC by 9-1/2 over Houston

Packers by 4 over Hawks

 

there is always an upset isn’t there? Who will get upset next week?

I pick (duh) the Hawks to beat the Packers, and Minn to beat the 49ers

 

 

Who are the Seahawks?

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A few unbiased observations after reading through some of the recent commentary in this thread.  The Patriots have definitely benefited in recent years from playing in a weak division but it hasn't been a weak division for 20 years.  Regardless of the strength of the division, it doesn't reflect on the Patriots winning 6 of 9 Super Bowls since 2001.  Every division in football has had the opportunity to end the Patriots dominance and few have been able to.  Point being, the Patriots have still had to go through the Ravens, Colts, Broncos, and Steelers to reach 9 Super Bowls in 18 seasons.

It's a remarkable level of excellence and consistency that is unmatched in professional team sports.  Objectively appreciate it for what it is.  The odds are very slim we will ever see anything similar again.

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37 minutes ago, Sluggo42 said:

Wow-

Seahawks win and get one post about a headshot from Clowney.

but the Pats lose and get 6 pages of hatred or defending accusations...

I think the one post of twisted panties was the best encapsulated statement.

 

ok folks, on to round 2!!

49ers by 7 over Minn

Balt by 9 over Tenn

KC by 9-1/2 over Houston

Packers by 4 over Hawks

 

there is always an upset isn’t there? Who will get upset next week?

I pick (duh) the Hawks to beat the Packers, and Minn to beat the 49ers

 

 

I like the Hawks over the Packers, and I dunno if Ten will actually win, but I predict it to be much closer than everyone expects. Otherwise I think KC and SF will take care of business. 

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Interesting read.  https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/08/23/washington-redskins-2013-coaching-staff-sean-mcvay-kyle-shanahan-matt-lafleur-mike-shanahan-rg3 

From 2010 to 2014, the Redskins had Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay, Matt LaFleur, Mike LaFleur, Rich Scangarello and Mike McDaniel on their staff.  Shanahan, McVay and Matt LaFleur have all become head coaches in the NFL.  One would even suggest, they have become elite head coaches in the NFL.  The Redskins are still searching for anything respectable.  Shanahan has turned the 49ers into a Super Bowl contender.  McVay took the Rams to the Super Bowl a year ago.  LaFleur has turned the Packers around in very short order.  His younger brother Mike is one of the hottest assistants in the league along with Scangarello and McDaniel.  Quite a coaching tree for such an awful Redskins team.  Those kinds of coaching trees are usually found in Super Bowl contenders, not doormats of the league.

Dan Snyder is the worst owner in professional sports!   

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45 minutes ago, sixcat said:

Dan Snyder is the worst owner in professional sports!   

I think this is definitely something we can ALL agree on, regardless of who you root for!

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2 hours ago, Middler said:

Weak division or not, how did that win them 9 AFC championships and 6 Super Bowls? They had to play the best of every other division for every one of those wins. I'm not sure how you or anyone else can't see/understand that.

People should also keep in mind the Pats have a first place schedule every year meaning they play the top teams in other divisions.  Maybe that is why the Super Bowl loser rarely makes the playoffs the next year.  But at the end of the day who cares.

Brady to Denver.

Home teams hold serve this weekend.

Niners go all the way after getting a good look at Lamar during the regular season.  

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21 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Saints fans are going to have a whole nother postseason of living with a missed PI call...

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I’m more upset about the gifted TD during regulation. Our guy was all over Rudolph on that last play so I can’t be too upset about the ruling on the field. I can be upset about New York’s decision not to review it though.

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