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GHIN index data


tony@CIC

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Has anyone ever seen data from GHIN on indexes across the US. Just curious what a distribution chart would look like: say indexes 0-5, 6-10, etc. and the percentage of the GHIN population of each.

 

 

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Ah never mind, just found the data at this link

 

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/handicap-index-statistics/mens-handicap-index-statistics-d24e6096.html

 

The percentages are somewhat surprising and is skewed to the lower end of the index scale. The guys in our men's league are at the higher end of the scale (say 18 and higher). We must be an anomaly to the rest of the golfing world.

 

 

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Ah never mind, just found the data at this link

 

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/handicap-index-statistics/mens-handicap-index-statistics-d24e6096.html

 

The percentages are somewhat surprising and is skewed to the lower end of the index scale. The guys in our men's league are at the higher end of the scale (say 18 and higher). We must be an anomaly to the rest of the golfing world.

 

 

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Y'all aren't the anomaly. Anything under a legit 10 is the anomaly. Of people that play golf less than 1% have a official handicap. Most of your weekend hackers who shoot in the 100's either don't have a handicap or keep a "glory" handicap that is a 4 or so. Most golfers shoot in the 100+ range if they acually know how to count.

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Y'all aren't the anomaly. Anything under a legit 10 is the anomaly. Of people that play golf less than 1% have a official handicap. Most of your weekend hackers who shoot in the 100's either don't have a handicap or keep a "glory" handicap that is a 4 or so. Most golfers shoot in the 100+ range if they acually know how to count.

Seeing and potentially interacting with anywhere from 50 to 200 golfers a day, I'm surprised at how many consider themselves avid golfers, yet they don't have an official handicap.

 

Your right a lot of these guys seemingly can't count past five or 100.

 

I played a casual round recently with a guy from our club. I shot 96 and I know he shot at least 10 to 12 shots higher. Yet I heard him in the clubhouse talking about his 88. WTF???

 

 

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Y'all aren't the anomaly. Anything under a legit 10 is the anomaly. Of people that play golf less than 1% have a official handicap. Most of your weekend hackers who shoot in the 100's either don't have a handicap or keep a "glory" handicap that is a 4 or so. Most golfers shoot in the 100+ range if they acually know how to count.

Do you have a source for this information, or is this simply your opinion?

 

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Do you have a source for this information, or is this simply your opinion?

 

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Simply an opinion, but based on everything I have seen from private clubs to local Munis this is a well educated opinion.

There isn't really a way to prove it, because you would be taking people for their word in a poll. This is difficult because on a phone poll 50% of people admitted to taking a drug that didn't exist. (Sorry, pointless digression)

The only way to prove it would to follow 100 "avid" golfers and score their round for them.

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Our club is pretty meticulous about entering scores from our league events into GHIN. Also, you need to have a minimum number of scores posted for the 'championship' events. Obviously an attempt to prevent sandbagging.

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I hate handicaps. I took along my 4.5 hcp and played in our City Championship - Sr. Flight a few weeks ago. The first round I was paired with a guy with a 10 hcp. Through #15 he was 3 under! Then he shot 3 over the final three holes carding even par for the day. But he was just getting warmed up. The next two rounds he shot 3 under and 2 under. I mentioned to him how well he played that first day. I asked where he plays and he said he didn't play much and usually only if invited occasionally to this or that course. Right! I've since learned he does play all over the area and a lot. Now I know; should I run into this character again and his 10 hcp.

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I hate handicaps. I took along my 4.5 hcp and played in our City Championship - Sr. Flight a few weeks ago. The first round I was paired with a guy with a 10 hcp. Through #15 he was 3 under! Then he shot 3 over the final three holes carding even par for the day. But he was just getting warmed up. The next two rounds he shot 3 under and 2 under. I mentioned to him how well he played that first day. I asked where he plays and he said he didn't play much and usually only if invited occasionally to this or that course. Right! I've since learned he does play all over the area and a lot. Now I know; should I run into this character again and his 10 hcp.

Definite sandbagger there. Ruins it for everyone

 

 

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Left Hand orientation

:taylormade-small:SIM 2 D Max with Fujikura Air Speeder Shaft 

Cobra  Radspeed 3W/RIptide Shaft
:ping-small:  410  Hybrids 22*, 26*

Cobra Speed Zone 6-GP/Recoil ESX 460 F3 Shafts 

:titelist-small: SM7 54* Wedge

:ping-small: Glide 3.0  60* Wedge

:odyssey-small: O Works putter

:ShotScope: V3
:918457628_PrecisionPro:NX9-HD

:CaddyTek: - 4 Wheel 

EZGO TXT 48v cart
:footjoy-small: - too many shoes to list and so many to buy

:1590477705_SunMountain: And  BAG Boy

Golf Balls: Vice Pro Plus 

2020 Official Teste:SuperSpeed: Beginning Driver Speed  - 78

2019 Official Tester :ping-small:  410 Driver

2018 Official Tester :wilson-small: C300

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I hate handicaps. I took along my 4.5 hcp and played in our City Championship - Sr. Flight a few weeks ago. The first round I was paired with a guy with a 10 hcp. Through #15 he was 3 under! Then he shot 3 over the final three holes carding even par for the day. But he was just getting warmed up. The next two rounds he shot 3 under and 2 under. I mentioned to him how well he played that first day. I asked where he plays and he said he didn't play much and usually only if invited occasionally to this or that course. Right! I've since learned he does play all over the area and a lot. Now I know; should I run into this character again and his 10 hcp.

it's not just in your area, but (probably) everywhere. The last few years I have been playing in flighted tournaments, where once you are flighted by handicap, your gross score is what you post for the tournament in your flight. The exception to this is the senior flight, which is net. Every tournament, without fail, is filled with a senior flight (65+) of nothing byt sandbaggers. I mean, when a guy shoots a net 67 two days in a row, followed by his merry band of 5-10 friends who all netted 70 or less, we have a major sandbagging problem.

 

I'm 50 now, and taking mental notes for 15 years from now. When I do arrive at 65, I won't play in any tournament where it is net, because frankly I have a track record with you seniors and your cheating/lying/stealing with regards to your handicap. Bluntly put, if you are 65 years or older and playing in net tournaments, the odds are that you are probably a sandbagger. And sadly, the only way you win a net tournament as a senior is to do what the dude you described does. Because 6 or 7 other seniors in his flight are all lying about their handicaps as well.

 

What an embarassing testimony from you retired dudes, where the only takeaway from your golf game is that you are all a bunch of cheaters. Play me straight up or not at all. That is my "moral code" going forward.

 

 

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Seeing and potentially interacting with anywhere from 50 to 200 golfers a day, I'm surprised at how many consider themselves avid golfers, yet they don't have an official handicap.

 

Your right a lot of these guys seemingly can't count past five or 100.

 

I played a casual round recently with a guy from our club. I shot 96 and I know he shot at least 10 to 12 shots higher. Yet I heard him in the clubhouse talking about his 88. WTF???

 

 

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Were you playing with my brother in law!?!

 

 

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Ah never mind, just found the data at this link

 

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/handicap-index-statistics/mens-handicap-index-statistics-d24e6096.html

 

The percentages are somewhat surprising and is skewed to the lower end of the index scale. The guys in our men's league are at the higher end of the scale (say 18 and higher). We must be an anomaly to the rest of the golfing world.

 

I don't think that you're an anomaly among linksters in general.

The majority of lesser skilled players aren't carrying official USGA indexes.

If they were, it would tilt the percentages radically.

 

 

 

 

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I hate handicaps. I took along my 4.5 hcp and played in our City Championship - Sr. Flight a few weeks ago. The first round I was paired with a guy with a 10 hcp. Through #15 he was 3 under! Then he shot 3 over the final three holes carding even par for the day. But he was just getting warmed up. The next two rounds he shot 3 under and 2 under. I mentioned to him how well he played that first day. I asked where he plays and he said he didn't play much and usually only if invited occasionally to this or that course. Right! I've since learned he does play all over the area and a lot. Now I know; should I run into this character again and his 10 hcp.

This is an occasion for contacting his home club.  If he's in GHIN, you can find his home club, and you can find a contact on the handicap committee there.  You can forward the tournament scores, and make sure that his scores are posted.  That's the only way that cheaters like this get exposed.  

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Reston, Virginia

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it's not just in your area, but (probably) everywhere. The last few years I have been playing in flighted tournaments, where once you are flighted by handicap, your gross score is what you post for the tournament in your flight. The exception to this is the senior flight, which is net. Every tournament, without fail, is filled with a senior flight (65+) of nothing byt sandbaggers. I mean, when a guy shoots a net 67 two days in a row, followed by his merry band of 5-10 friends who all netted 70 or less, we have a major sandbagging problem.

 

I'm 50 now, and taking mental notes for 15 years from now. When I do arrive at 65, I won't play in any tournament where it is net, because frankly I have a track record with you seniors and your cheating/lying/stealing with regards to your handicap. Bluntly put, if you are 65 years or older and playing in net tournaments, the odds are that you are probably a sandbagger. And sadly, the only way you win a net tournament as a senior is to do what the dude you described does. Because 6 or 7 other seniors in his flight are all lying about their handicaps as well.

 

What an embarassing testimony from you retired dudes, where the only takeaway from your golf game is that you are all a bunch of cheaters. Play me straight up or not at all. That is my "moral code" going forward.

 

 

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Wow that's a pretty big generalization. Is this at muni events? Sorry you're experiencing such an issue with older players - I certainly hope that's not the case across the US.

 

At our club the scores are recorded by the club pro for weekly men's league. Since we do skins at these events there is a bit of competitiveness so no one is intentionally playing badly to raise their handicap. All of our championships are flighted and except for the top flight it's on a gross and net basis. So I'm pretty comfortable that no one is sandbagging. On the other hand I've never played in Muni events so my experience is limited to Club play only.

 

The intent of my original post here is to better understand what the index bell curve looks like and where I and some of the other golfers at our Club fit in.

 

 

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Wow that's a pretty big generalization. Is this at muni events? Sorry you're experiencing such an issue with older players - I certainly hope that's not the case across the US.

 

At our club the scores are recorded by the club pro for weekly men's league. Since we do skins at these events there is a bit of competitiveness so no one is intentionally playing badly to raise their handicap. All of our championships are flighted and except for the top flight it's on a gross and net basis. So I'm pretty comfortable that no one is sandbagging. On the other hand I've never played in Muni events so my experience is limited to Club play only.

 

The intent of my original post here is to better understand what the index bell curve looks like and where I and some of the other golfers at our Club fit in.

 

 

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multiple tournaments at multiple clubs, public open to the public tournaments.

 

 

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This is an occasion for contacting his home club. If he's in GHIN, you can find his home club, and you can find a contact on the handicap committee there. You can forward the tournament scores, and make sure that his scores are posted. That's the only way that cheaters like this get exposed.

Since again I've never played in events outside of my Club, do you have to submit a handicap/index card? I know the GHIN app has a card printing capability and show not only your index but also the recent scores.

 

 

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Left Hand orientation

:taylormade-small:SIM 2 D Max with Fujikura Air Speeder Shaft 

Cobra  Radspeed 3W/RIptide Shaft
:ping-small:  410  Hybrids 22*, 26*

Cobra Speed Zone 6-GP/Recoil ESX 460 F3 Shafts 

:titelist-small: SM7 54* Wedge

:ping-small: Glide 3.0  60* Wedge

:odyssey-small: O Works putter

:ShotScope: V3
:918457628_PrecisionPro:NX9-HD

:CaddyTek: - 4 Wheel 

EZGO TXT 48v cart
:footjoy-small: - too many shoes to list and so many to buy

:1590477705_SunMountain: And  BAG Boy

Golf Balls: Vice Pro Plus 

2020 Official Teste:SuperSpeed: Beginning Driver Speed  - 78

2019 Official Tester :ping-small:  410 Driver

2018 Official Tester :wilson-small: C300

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Since again I've never played in events outside of my Club, do you have to submit a handicap/index card? I know the GHIN app has a card printing capability and show not only your index but also the recent scores.

 

 

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If he is playing on a city-wide event, presumably he has an official USGA handicap. It's important to be sure that excellent tournament rounds are posted to that handicap. Plaid can almost certainly let us know just what the entry requirements are

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If you play in enough events, it's not difficult to see who the sandbaggers are for handicap purposes. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of Hcp by area.

I'd also be curious of the tournament directors enter the scores or the participants.

 

 

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:titelist-small: SM7 54* Wedge

:ping-small: Glide 3.0  60* Wedge

:odyssey-small: O Works putter

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:918457628_PrecisionPro:NX9-HD

:CaddyTek: - 4 Wheel 

EZGO TXT 48v cart
:footjoy-small: - too many shoes to list and so many to buy

:1590477705_SunMountain: And  BAG Boy

Golf Balls: Vice Pro Plus 

2020 Official Teste:SuperSpeed: Beginning Driver Speed  - 78

2019 Official Tester :ping-small:  410 Driver

2018 Official Tester :wilson-small: C300

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Has anyone ever seen data from GHIN on indexes across the US. Just curious what a distribution chart would look like: say indexes 0-5, 6-10, etc. and the percentage of the GHIN population of each.

 

 

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The Grint has charts like these somewhere within their blog (sorry, don't have the specific link).

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.....

I played a casual round recently with a guy from our club. I shot 96 and I know he shot at least 10 to 12 shots higher. Yet I heard him in the clubhouse talking about his 88. WTF???

 

Unrelated to the OP, but kinda related and asking here 'cuz I'm not clear - say I did have a handicap and it's 18, and say I go out and shoot a 98 GROSS. Did that mean I shot an ..approx.. Net 80..?? Thx.

WITB of an "aspiring"  😉 play-ah ...
Driver...Callaway Paradym (Aldila Ascent PL Blue 40/A)
5W...Callaway Great Big Bertha (MCA Kai'Li Red 50/R)
7W...Tour Edge Exotics EXS (Tensei CK Blue 50/R)

4H...Callaway Epic Super Hybrid (Recoil ZT9 F3)
5H...Callaway Big Bertha ('19) (Recoil 460 ESX F3)
6i-GW...Sub 70 699 V2 (Recoil 660 F3) 
54°, 60°...Cleveland CBX2, CBX 60 (Rotex graphite)
Putter...Ev
nRoll ER5 or MLA Tour XDream (P2 Reflex grip on both)
...all in a Datrek bag on an MGI Zip Navigator electric cart. Ball often, not always, MaxFli Tour.

Forum Member tester for the Paradym X driver (2023)
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In general terms yes. The index or commonly termed handicap is the difference between gross and net. What comes into play is where you shot the 98. Each course has a slope rating including from different tees so if you have a 18, that index will differ on tees and courses and is related to a difficulty factor.

 

If you're using GHIN to log your scores you'll find a calculator on the app. You select the course and tee box and it'll give you the adjustment to your handicap. It could be an additional couple of strokes plus or minus.

 

As an example our Club Course rating is 126 from the bronze tees and I have a 24 index. If I played a course and tees that have a slope rating of 100 (easy) that index would be a 22, on the other hand if I played a course and tees with a rating of 130 (harder) my index will be 29.

 

 

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I know one way to sand bag or “cheat the system is to make a score from a particular tee, but post it from a different tee. So let's say you played the tips and shot 72. The index for that round is probably +2 If you post that score in the system and say you shot 72 from the white tees, the index for that tee box is more likely to be 2. This of course depends on the course and slope ratings for the course. At my course this scenario would be accurate as there is a 4 stroke differential from the black to the white tees. So it is possible to post the correct score but post it from the Erin tees to keep your Hcp up.

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There are multiple ways to "cheat" the handicap system if you really want to. Only post your score if it is above a certain number. Intentionally miss putts on every hole or select holes per round. So instead of having your best effort, you posted a round where it was a legitimate score, but you missed a shot here or there intentionally.

 

I mean, if someone wants to sandbag, they are going to sandbag, and they can get around even leagues and clubs where rounds are witnessed and attested by multiple parties playing by strict interpretation of the rules.

 

Ultimately, if you play enough tournaments or competitive rounds where you scored well below what your handicap is, you are a sandbagger. Whatever means you took to get there is ultimately on you.

 

And if you are around this game long enough, you'll witness enough sandbagging to fill a large novel with the stories. Ultimately whenever money is involved, there will always be people gold enough to want to steal it. Banks have bank robbers, governments have lobbyists and politicians, golf has sandbaggers. But however you wrap up the package, a thief is a thief is a thief.

 

That's why I strive to improve my game to the point where I can play you straight up, with no strokes involved. If you beat me, or I beat you, I know it was based on my skill, and not some convoluted point system that ultimately is fraudulent at least 50% of the time.

 

 

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In general terms yes. The index or commonly termed handicap is the difference between gross and net. What comes into play is where you shot the 98. Each course has a slope rating including from different tees so if you have a 18, that index will differ on tees and courses and is related to a difficulty factor.

 

If you're using GHIN to log your scores you'll find a calculator on the app. You select the course and tee box and it'll give you the adjustment to your handicap. It could be an additional couple of strokes plus or minus.

 

As an example our Club Course rating is 126 from the bronze tees and I have a 24 index. If I played a course and tees that have a slope rating of 100 (easy) that index would be a 22, on the other hand if I played a course and tees with a rating of 130 (harder) my index will be 29.

 

 

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I just want to clear up some terminology.  In the USGA system, your Handicap Index is calculated based on your scores, and the Slope and Course Rating of the courses you played.  Your Index is the same, no matter where you play, and it gets updated on the 1st and the 15th of each month.  Your Course Handicap is calculated based on your Index, and on the Slope Rating of the course you're playing.  As Tony says, your Course Handicap will vary from tee to tee, and course to course.  

And sadly, sandbagging happens.  The only way to fight it is to have an active Handicap Committee.  Maybe that means you have to volunteer to work on the Committee, which is a really thankless job.  Well, not completely thankless, many people will really appreciate efforts to make handicaps accurate.  Some will resent the idea that anyone watches their scores, and some will resent the idea that it will be more difficult to cheat the system.  But in my experience, most players are honest, and will be happy when others are required to be more honest.

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In general terms yes. The index or commonly termed handicap is the difference between gross and net. What comes into play is where you shot the 98. Each course has a slope rating including from different tees so if you have a 18, that index will differ on tees and courses and is related to a difficulty factor.

 

If you're using GHIN to log your scores you'll find a calculator on the app. You select the course and tee box and it'll give you the adjustment to your handicap. It could be an additional couple of strokes plus or minus.

 

As an example our Club Course rating is 126 from the bronze tees and I have a 24 index. If I played a course and tees that have a slope rating of 100 (easy) that index would be a 22, on the other hand if I played a course and tees with a rating of 130 (harder) my index will be 29.

 

 

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Think I've got it. Thx for that info!

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  • 7 months later...

Yes a lot of sandbagging in the handicap space,  the GHIN is basically a joke for the over 15 handicapper who shots one low score every 10, 15 rounds and gets his handicap cut because he has the "Potential" to be a 14, when in truth he is a 17 90% of the time.  Women are really taken advantage of with the GHIN ,  over 50 ladies for sure...they shoot 95 to 110 95% of the time then play a course set up with short par 3's and short par 5's and they shoot 88....and loose 2 to 3 points off their handicap  for  3 or 4 months....my wife got two hole in ones in one round on a women friendly course and went from a 19.9 handicap  to a 14.7 because of one lucky round...took 4 months to get her handicap back to a correct number.

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I just want to clear up some terminology.  In the USGA system, your Handicap Index is calculated based on your scores, and the Slope and Course Rating of the courses you played.  Your Index is the same, no matter where you play, and it gets updated on the 1st and the 15th of each month.  Your Course Handicap is calculated based on your Index, and on the Slope Rating of the course you're playing.  As Tony says, your Course Handicap will vary from tee to tee, and course to course.  
And sadly, sandbagging happens.  The only way to fight it is to have an active Handicap Committee.  Maybe that means you have to volunteer to work on the Committee, which is a really thankless job.  Well, not completely thankless, many people will really appreciate efforts to make handicaps accurate.  Some will resent the idea that anyone watches their scores, and some will resent the idea that it will be more difficult to cheat the system.  But in my experience, most players are honest, and will be happy when others are required to be more honest.


Well said and I agree.
Want to see how the sausage is made then jump in and volunteer your time and effort on a committee to help your group or course.
Sign up for a handicap workshop when they are done in your area.
Knowledge is power.


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