Modern Irons are here to stay

[LoganT]

Distance irons haven’t been on my radar either until I hit the i500 and was blown away. I love my current irons (Cleveland 588 combo set) but I want something that is slightly more forgiving but still looks great. After reading I think that a couple of the irons from the “players distance” category may be what I’m looking for.


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[NiftyNiblick]

If I were in the market for new irons, I would check bounce angles.

Models with less bounce can be bent two degrees weak without rendering the soles unplayable.

There isn't a model made today that I wouldn't have to bend two degrees weak.

Bending two degrees strong would reduce bounce for my flat swing,

lengths and lies can be adjusted to create good length/loft correlations,

but it would also make the number/loft correlation even more ludicrous than it is already.

(Sorry if I think that matters.)

A nice mixed Mizuno set

with the Fli Hi s and the 919s bent 2º weak

and the S18s chosen to match them

would still be a good, modern set, I imagine.

I wish that I were in a position to find out.

Among the mainstream OEMs, 

Mizuno andTitleist would be my most likely iron choices over Callaway, Cleveland, Cobra, Ping, TaylorMade, and Wilson

mainly on the basis of cosmetics

and how they set up in sets with the S18 and SM7 choices.

 

[chisag]

2 hours ago, NiftyNiblick said:

If I were in the market for new irons, I would check bounce angles.

Models with less bounce can be bent two degrees weak without rendering the soles unplayable.

There isn't a model made today that I wouldn't have to bend two degrees weak.

Bending two degrees strong would reduce bounce for my flat swing,

lengths and lies can be adjusted to create good length/loft correlations,

but it would also make the number/loft correlation even more ludicrous than it is already.

(Sorry if I think that matters.)

A nice mixed Mizuno set

with the Fli Hi s and the 919s bent 2º weak

and the S18s chosen to match them

would still be a good, modern set, I imagine.

I wish that I were in a position to find out.

Among the mainstream OEMs, 

Mizuno andTitleist would be my most likely iron choices over Callaway, Cleveland, Cobra, Ping, TaylorMade, and Wilson

mainly on the basis of cosmetics

and how they set up in sets with the S18 and SM7 choices.

 

 

... Nifty the problem is there is not a lot of room for those irons in the trunk of your Model T Ford. 

[NiftyNiblick]

 

... Nifty the problem is there is not a lot of room for those irons in the trunk of your Model T Ford. 

I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee.

Plenty of room for multiple golf bags, especially with the back seats folded down.

The Model T is a good car too, but no air, GPS or backup camera.

At least the Model T lets you wear a ********* hat.

(Not a boy's cap.  A man's hat.)

I left my clubs in the bag room, anyway.

That way they got properly cleaned,

and  went straight onto the cart without my having to get involved.

 

 

 

[hartrick11]

... Distance irons were never on my radar and I was shocked at how much I instantly loved the P790's. So sorry Logant but I have only hit a few of them and my opinions would be subjective and limited to one demo session with range balls. 

I had my first full fitting yesterday and my dispersion data was actually best on the Cobra Forged Tecs and then the 790s, with the more blade-like irons pacing well behind, which is just one more story confirming your point. Had I not been reading this and other threads on mgs the last few months I would’ve been less open to these new types of clubs. One thing that makes me a little bit nervous though is the loft gaps that go from 2 degrees in the strong irons to 5 degrees in the 8-w. What are your thoughts on that chisag?


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[chisag]

...  I bent my 5 iron .5* weak and my 6 - pw 1* degree weak. So instead of  2.5 - 3 - 4 - 4.5 - 5 - 5  I am have my gaps at 3 - 3.5 - 4 - 4.5 - 5 - 5 and it has worked well.  But it may be for peace of mind as the long irons are pretty explosive and I am not sure I would notice a .5* difference, but hey why not since I have a L&L machine? The 4 iron at 21* is really a strong 3 iron as clubs like the AP2 still have a 24* 4 iron which is weaker than the 790/Tec 5 irons so unless you need and use a 2 iron, the 3 irons are basically driving irons for most of us. Fwiw, I had no trouble with the long and mid irons but it did take several rounds before I became comfortable with the 5* gaps in the short irons. Once I started hitting more 3/4 shots with them, everything fell into place and actually improved my short iron play. 

... As always with new irons, especially those with high tech, it is a good idea to play them first and see how the gapping is working for you before making changes. 

[NiftyNiblick]

...  I bent my 5 iron .5* weak and my 6 - pw 1* degree weak. So instead of  2.5 - 3 - 4 - 4.5 - 5 - 5  I am have my gaps at 3 - 3.5 - 4 - 4.5 - 5 - 5 and it has worked well.  But it may be for peace of mind as the long irons are pretty explosive and I am not sure I would notice a .5* difference, but hey why not since I have a L&L machine? The 4 iron at 21* is really a strong 3 iron as clubs like the AP2 still have a 24* 4 iron which is weaker than the 790/Tec 5 irons so unless you need and use a 2 iron, the 3 irons are basically driving irons for most of us. Fwiw, I had no trouble with the long and mid irons but it did a several rounds before I became comfortable with the 5* gaps in the short irons. Once I started hitting more 3/4 shots with them, everything fell into place and actually improved my short iron play. 

I try to forget about this game.

Forgetting about my early teens,  playing with my uncles,

sometimes with my normally non-golf playing dad joining us and chopping the course to shreds,

should be tough to forget, but I can do that.

 

 

Forgetting about my ten year old son pulling my trolley followed by a "men's night out" at Kitty's Restaurant and the movies

(and/or the batting cages) should be tough to forget, but I can do that.

 

Forgetting about the Dukes and our comical de facto segregation from the rest of the club

should be tough to forget, but I can do that.

 

But when a  silver haired pretty boy actor from Chicago

who still plays to a PLUS ********* handicap

starts talking about bending his iron lofts,

that's when, like the crazy idiot that I am,

I start really missing the game.

 

The equipment aspect of the game always intrigued me so much that I delved into it

as if I were even money against the entire rest of the field at Carnoustie.

As much as I love retirement,

which I embraced at fifty-five and for which I was ready at college graduation,

I would go back to work tomorrow morning if I could own a sporting goods company

and make the golf clubs that I'd like to make,

while the rest of the line with which I'd have nothing to do

would have to keep my company afloat because nobody would buy the Nifty-inspired products.

 

I just posted about bending lofts and how the clubs would have to be low bounce so that I could bend them weak

because I hate the number stamping / loft correlations.

(Even bending wouldn't get them right but it would at least bring us to 1990.)

I often spoke of removing the no longer relevant number stamping altogether and scratched my head

because most players still want them even though they bear no relation to the original numbering system.

I'd rather play with a mashie- niblick than a seven-iron with a "9" stamped on it, and the entire rest of the forum

thinks that I'm insane because of it.

 

It's the damned equipment talk that still stokes my fire.

Even if I couldn't play, I could still tell my engineer/club makers what the hell I wanted to make anyway,

just so I could look at it all with admiration.

 

Freakin'  chisag kidding me about Model Ts and then bending his own irons for silly gapping reasons instead of good taste

is going to do it every time.

 

 

 

 

 

[GB13]

7 hours ago, hartrick11 said:

I had my first full fitting yesterday and my dispersion data was actually best on the Cobra Forged Tecs and then the 790s, with the more blade-like irons pacing well behind, which is just one more story confirming your point. Had I not been reading this and other threads on mgs the last few months I would’ve been less open to these new types of clubs. One thing that makes me a little bit nervous though is the loft gaps that go from 2 degrees in the strong irons to 5 degrees in the 8-w. What are your thoughts on that chisag?


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I glad you were open to all club options and ended up with the best clubs for you. 

I would recommend getting some time on a LM and then hitting 5 shots with all clubs. Then I would look and see if the average distance for each club gives you proper gapping. If so, great, and forget about the lofts. If not, take them back to the fitter, and have them bent a little. If you need advice on how much to bend them, either the fitter can help you, or we can help you here on MGS. 

[hartrick11]

16 hours ago, GB13 said:

I glad you were open to all club options and ended up with the best clubs for you. 

I would recommend getting some time on a LM and then hitting 5 shots with all clubs. Then I would look and see if the average distance for each club gives you proper gapping. If so, great, and forget about the lofts. If not, take them back to the fitter, and have them bent a little. If you need advice on how much to bend them, either the fitter can help you, or we can help you here on MGS. 

Thanks, that makes sense logically.  I just need to get comfortable enough to pull the trigger on the set in order to test all of the clubs for gapping purposes (the TrueSpec fitting was using 6i heads only).

This last comment is probably best suited for a different thread, but thought I would throw it out there for anyone who is on the fence for a fitting - what was even more eye-opening than the modern club heads was how comically bad my current shafts are for my game. Wish I got a fitting 3 years ago when I bought the last set! 

[hartrick11]

On 10/28/2018 at 10:50 AM, chisag said:

...  I bent my 5 iron .5* weak and my 6 - pw 1* degree weak. So instead of  2.5 - 3 - 4 - 4.5 - 5 - 5  I am have my gaps at 3 - 3.5 - 4 - 4.5 - 5 - 5 and it has worked well.  But it may be for peace of mind as the long irons are pretty explosive and I am not sure I would notice a .5* difference, but hey why not since I have a L&L machine? The 4 iron at 21* is really a strong 3 iron as clubs like the AP2 still have a 24* 4 iron which is weaker than the 790/Tec 5 irons so unless you need and use a 2 iron, the 3 irons are basically driving irons for most of us. Fwiw, I had no trouble with the long and mid irons but it did take several rounds before I became comfortable with the 5* gaps in the short irons. Once I started hitting more 3/4 shots with them, everything fell into place and actually improved my short iron play. 

... As always with new irons, especially those with high tech, it is a good idea to play them first and see how the gapping is working for you before making changes. 

Chisag, did you ever consider blending the FTB and King Pro CBs vs getting a full set of FTB)? I know the King Pro is a flow CB/MB set, but I was thinking about making it a bit more forgiving combo. I assume since you can get order a whole set of CBs that the sales desk would accommodate something like this, right? 

The lofts are a little out of whack when you blend them since the FTBs are so strong, so here is what I would have to put together for an 8 piece set. Obviously the numbers stamped on the soles would be weird, but I don't know that I care - I would also specify the exact lengths on the order sheet since those would also be a bit out of whack.

I could always just get the whole set of FTBs, but the loft gaps are just sticking in my head as issues even though they may not be an issue at all (Let's be honest they probably aren't based on the comments already mentioned, and I need to get better at 3/4 shots anyway...). My other consideration is the Hogan Ft Worth Blacks, but I'm waiting on a demo to become available (and for the Stage 2 reviews to come in) since my fitter didn't have any of those to play with.

FTB 5 Iron, 1* strong, (22*)

FTB 6 Iron, standard (26*)

FTB 7 Iron, standard (30*)

FTB 8 Iron, 1* strong (34*)

King Pro CB 8 Iron (38*)

King Pro CB 9 Iron (42*)

King Pro CB PW (46*)

King Pro CB GW (50*)

 

Any feedback would be much appreciated!

[chisag]

... That would work but for me, that would just be too much of a jump in irons going from the larger and thicker top lined FTB to the thin top lined and much small headed King Pro CB's. I think you could go one of two ways if you really want a combo set: 

5-7 FTB and 8-pw Forged Tours

or 

5-7 Forged Tours and 8-pw King Pro CB's

... In fact, you could order Fly Z+ irons ($89 individually) instead of Forged Tours ($145 individually) as they are basically identical in construction. I am a little biased as I think the Amp Forged/Fly Z+/Forged Tours should be in the hall of fame for players irons. I was playing the original AP2's and preferred the Cobra's in every way from looks at address to performance and feel. I played all 3 sets. Maybe the best feeling multi material iron made. 

 

[hartrick11]

22 minutes ago, chisag said:

... That would work but for me, that would just be too much of a jump in irons going from the larger and thicker top lined FTB to the thin top lined and much small headed King Pro CB's. I think you could go one of two ways if you really want a combo set: 

5-7 FTB and 8-pw Forged Tours

or 

5-7 Forged Tours and 8-pw King Pro CB's

... In fact, you could order Fly Z+ irons ($89 individually) instead of Forged Tours ($145 individually) as they are basically identical in construction. I am a little biased as I think the Amp Forged/Fly Z+/Forged Tours should be in the hall of fame for players irons. I was playing the original AP2's and preferred the Cobra's in every way from looks at address to performance and feel. I played all 3 sets. Maybe the best feeling multi material iron made. 

 

Thank you for the insight. If I'm being honest with myself just a full set of Forged Tec Black should be the move rather than over-thinking things (until my credit card has been charged I am going to over-think things).  

[chisag]

... Probably a good choice. I went thru the same thing when I first got my P790's and I did a combo set with my Forged Tours in 8-pw, but it really just made me want to play one or the other and the P790's won.  

[NiftyNiblick]

What is the difference between Mizuno JPX 919 Hot Metal,

Mizuno JPX 919 Tour,

and Mizunp JPX 919 Forged?

Did anybody get fired over this nonsense?

I would have offered just one of those with a choice of vintage, classic, modern, wide gap,  or power lofts.

 

They have the MP18s in multiple models, too.

 

 

 

 

[chisag]

... HUGE difference Nifty. The JPX Tours are basically small headed MB's. The JPX Forged are a players iron with a very nice feel and some forgiveness but still workable and easy to flight. The JPX Hot Metals are forgiving GI irons and while they don't have that Mizuno feel, they are very playable and easy to hit high and straight. 

[NiftyNiblick]

Thanks, Chi. 

Imagine that. 

I'd have gone with just the 919 Forged with five loft options.

And my only other model would have been MP18s with  Fli Hi  2-6 irons and conventional from 7 down.

That would be the MO of Nifty Niblick Premium Golf Clubs.

Fewer models.

More options within the models..

I'd have gone broke MY way.

 

 

[yungkory]

Just now, NiftyNiblick said:

Thanks, Chi. 

Imagine that. 

I'd have gone with just the 919 Forged with five loft options.

And my only other model would have been MP18s with  Fli Hi  2-6 irons and conventional from 7 down.

That would be the MO of Nifty Niblick Premium Golf Clubs.

Fewer models.

More options within the models..

I'd have gone broke MY way.

 

 

To me, the way Mizuno does it makes sense for people who are building combo sets. It's not that they want to offer 3 completely different sets, they want you to think of them as one so that you can blend them together easily. They're not doing it for the sake of having multiple SKUs in pro shops.

[NiftyNiblick]

11 minutes ago, yungkory said:

To me, the way Mizuno does it makes sense for people who are building combo sets. It's not that they want to offer 3 completely different sets, they want you to think of them as one so that you can blend them together easily. They're not doing it for the sake of having multiple SKUs in pro shops.

I'm sure that they know more about it than I do.

They make really good irons and wedges.

Not a lot of choices in metalwoods, but irons are their reputation.

[Peaksy68]

I hit all of the current Mizuno lineup yesterday. Highest ball flight was the hot metal, despite the strongest loft. MMC was a clear standout, the very subtle (in appearance) tech worked great for me. Blades were beautiful, but to quote Clint Eastwood, “A mans gots’ to know his limitations “


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[GB13]

3 minutes ago, Peaksy68 said:

I hit all of the current Mizuno lineup yesterday. Highest ball flight was the hot metal, despite the strongest loft. MMC was a clear standout, the very subtle (in appearance) tech worked great for me. Blades were beautiful, but to quote Clint Eastwood, “A mans gots’ to know his limitations “


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What made the MMC the best?

From my experience the MMC are in between the Forged and the HM. Is this what you saw too?

[Peaksy68]

What made the MMC the best?
From my experience the MMC are in between the Forged and the HM. Is this what you saw too?

For me the ball flight was more penetrating. Ball flight was boring through a slight headwind with no hint of ballooning that I got from the JPX line. The feedback was better, I knew exactly where my mis hits were on the face.

Most importantly the consistency, even on the less than stellar contact the ball was finishing thereabouts.


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[BIG STU]

On 10/2/2018 at 2:24 PM, NiftyNiblick said:

It feels awfully needy to be bumping my own post twice, but I'm really curious if I'm alone with this thing.

If you're a veteran player hitting modern jacked lofts,

do you go long and flat

to turn a modern 6-iron into a traditional 4-iron except for the stamping?

Is that just a Nifty thing, 

trying to keep keep length / loft correlations familiar?

 

 

 

 

That is what I basically had to do with my 2013 Cally X forged. Those things had hot faces too. Tried lofting them up some but that only increased the bounce on clubs that had too much bounce to begin with for me. Had distance control issues with the short irons too. Could never get my distances dialed in with those things.  I can also relate to the phone thing too. I carried the same flip phone for over 10 years literally wore out the key pad. Numbers had been worn off for a couple of years and I could still dial it though. Then it lost all the 'action" on the key pad. The people at the phone place were amazed. In fact the tech man asked if it was ok if he tore it down. I let him and he said he had never seen a keypad so worn out. The young lady remarked when I first came in. "does that thing still work?" I told her yep it would receive calls but I had gotten to the point I could not dial out. She also told me "sir you have been eligible for several updates" So I ended up with a G-6 Smart Phone which is smarter than I am. I basically stay with something as long as it works. The bank I do business with is another example. In the last 20 years it has been sold and changed names some 3 or 4 times but we stayed because the folks treat us good.  I think one of the wheels was in there the other day and the teller remarked to him that we had been customers since it was Coastal Bank which was 18 years ago now. Did the same thing with Direct TV. We got that when it first came out. 3 years ago we bought our first flat screen HD TV. I could not get my DTV to work so I called them. I remember the service guy was about like the phone folks as in you have been eligible for several updates. He called someone with DTV and told him "These folks have the first boxes and dish we came out with and they still work on the older TVs" He came back the next day with all new boxes dish and remotes and installed them free. Did not cost us one dime. 

[chisag]

... Stu the only question I have is: are you a Stegosaurus or a Brontosaurous?  

[hartrick11]

17 hours ago, chisag said:

... Probably a good choice. I went thru the same thing when I first got my P790's and I did a combo set with my Forged Tours in 8-pw, but it really just made me want to play one or the other and the P790's won.  

Of course I stopped at the driving range last night and demoed a forged tour after your comments, and sure enough it felt amazing. Now I am dreaming about next year when they (hopefully) release a DBM version of these bad boys!

[BIG STU]

3 hours ago, chisag said:

... Stu the only question I have is: are you a Stegosaurus or a Brontosaurous?  

I guess I am some kind of Dinosaur. Some things if they work ok for us then we let it be. I have been driving that same 96 Dakota Pick up for 10 years now. True I built it from all kinds of parts when we had the wrecker business. I have a Borla exhaust from a wrecked Honda Car. It is a 4 cylinder but I have injectors from a V-8 Dodge in it. The wiring harness to the engine controls is patched together with a harness from a V-6 Dodge pick up. Still Runs good. I can remember back when I was racing this old guy that worked at the track made a comment that I was the last of the Dinosaurs. I asked WTF? He looked at my car and remarked I bet $100 you know every bolt nut and weld on that car. Then the light went off I was the last of the guys that built my cars from the ground up including the engine and drove the darn thing too. I wear that like a badge of honor. Yep I am lost somewhere between the 50s and 90s

[NiftyNiblick]

12 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

I was the last of the guys that built my cars from the ground up including the engine and drove the darn thing too. I wear that like a badge of honor. Yep I am lost somewhere between the 50s and 90s

I'm a dinosaur too, and I've never changed my own oil.

I'm still pissed off about having to pump my own gasoline.

[ I admittedly don't wear that like a badge of honor, Stu.   I respect people knowing how to do stuff. ]

Lot's a different style dinosaurs still roaming around, I would say..

[chisag]

2 hours ago, BIG STU said:

I guess I am some kind of Dinosaur. Some things if they work ok for us then we let it be. I have been driving that same 96 Dakota Pick up for 10 years now. True I built it from all kinds of parts when we had the wrecker business. I have a Borla exhaust from a wrecked Honda Car. It is a 4 cylinder but I have injectors from a V-8 Dodge in it. The wiring harness to the engine controls is patched together with a harness from a V-6 Dodge pick up. Still Runs good. I can remember back when I was racing this old guy that worked at the track made a comment that I was the last of the Dinosaurs. I asked WTF? He looked at my car and remarked I bet $100 you know every bolt nut and weld on that car. Then the light went off I was the last of the guys that built my cars from the ground up including the engine and drove the darn thing too. I wear that like a badge of honor. Yep I am lost somewhere between the 50s and 90s

 

... Yup, nothing wrong with being a dinosaur as long as you are a happy dinosaur. The "get off my lawn with your new fangled phone" kinda dinosaurs are lost in the modern world. You never have to embrace new technology, but you do have to accept it. I am a musical dinosaur and while I do like some modern music, I am forever locked into the musicality, the lyrics, the desire to be the best and experiment on any given instrument and of course an over all "let's make the world a better place" of the 70's instead of the me, Me ME that is much of todays music. The 70's is where I spend almost all of my listening and remembering my days in radio where we were always excited about new releases or legends pushing the envelope like Joe Walsh who never stopped experimenting with his guitar. I interviewed him in the late 70's and he told me guitar legends locking themselves in their room and playing all day long producing an instantly recognizable sound will be a thing of the past. The future will be digital and there will not be legends like Ry Cooder that joins a band for one tune and you know exactly who it is. 

[NiftyNiblick]

15 hours ago, chisag said:

...and of course an over all "let's make the world a better place" of the 70's instead of the me, Me ME that is much of todays music. The 70's is where I spend almost all of my listening and remembering my days in radio where we were always excited about new releases or legends pushing the envelope like Joe Walsh who never stopped experimenting with his guitar. I interviewed him in the late 70's and he told me guitar legends locking themselves in their room and playing all day long producing an instantly recognizable sound will be a thing of the past.

Those 70's tunes are new fangled kids' music to me, Chi.

My discography begins with Italian opera and ends with mid-sixties Stax-Volt.

I can dig Otis Redding,  but anything in the pop genre after than may as well have come from outer space.

70s?   Nobody is Stuck In the Middle with me.  I've obviously never been in the middle!

[BIG STU]

On 11/1/2018 at 5:47 PM, chisag said:

 

... Yup, nothing wrong with being a dinosaur as long as you are a happy dinosaur. The "get off my lawn with your new fangled phone" kinda dinosaurs are lost in the modern world. You never have to embrace new technology, but you do have to accept it. I am a musical dinosaur and while I do like some modern music, I am forever locked into the musicality, the lyrics, the desire to be the best and experiment on any given instrument and of course an over all "let's make the world a better place" of the 70's instead of the me, Me ME that is much of todays music. The 70's is where I spend almost all of my listening and remembering my days in radio where we were always excited about new releases or legends pushing the envelope like Joe Walsh who never stopped experimenting with his guitar. I interviewed him in the late 70's and he told me guitar legends locking themselves in their room and playing all day long producing an instantly recognizable sound will be a thing of the past. The future will be digital and there will not be legends like Ry Cooder that joins a band for one tune and you know exactly who it is. 

Yeah definitely a happy Dinosaur--- What is strange about me at 61 years old is I am more tolerant of the young folks than I am with some of these old farts around here acting like idiots. You know the types with a new Mustang convertible hitting on young ladies young enough to be their Grand Daughters. Now what gets me riled up with the young ones is showing no respect for themselves or others. Things like using the F bomb in front of ladies and children etc. As a whole anyone who knows me knows generally I am pretty laid back unless someone pushes my wrong button. Yep I am set in my ways but not closed minded but tend to march to the beat of my own drum right or wrong. But yeah I am a happy Dinosaur.   

[NiftyNiblick]

17 hours ago, BIG STU said:

 Now what gets me riled up with the young ones is showing no respect for themselves or others. Things like using the F bomb in front of ladies and children etc.

Ah, the civility of Garden City Beach, Stu!

In Boston,  you can wait for the ladies and children to drop the F bombs first--then feel free to speak as you will.

But I agree with you--a little decorum isn't a bad idea.  I can't even guess what the hell happened,

but being a 60s kid  boomer, I feel guilt for probably having had something to do with it.