cheating

[zkilo]

recently I just finished my first golf league. I know there a lot of 'gimme putts' but what amazed me is the number of players improving they lies. Astounding, I can't think of one player who didn't improved their lies. to top it off they then post scores and handicaps that don't really reflect their actual game. Then tonight, a couple of guys I play with, had a round. One of the players always improves his lie, " there's a tree root and I don't want to break my club" and other improvements. Either 'fluffing' the ball or just out right moving the ball. What really bothers me about this one player  gets pissed when I don't give him a 'gimme' putt and he misses it. The way I figure, due to an injury that as limited my strength, I have to be better around the green to beat him, and to have him whine because "they would give this to me in league" boils my butt.Am I wrong in this opinion? Isn't golf a game of skill, but also of fun?. If you lack the skill get better. I realize that my skill will always be limited, but to have someone beat me because of the above issues leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Okay I know this is a rant but i needed to get this off my chest. What do other players think?

[GB13]

This is a person I want to play in a tournament. Fake handicap. No person should ever post a round that is not played by the rules. No gimmies and certainly no "fluffing". I would call him out and if he doesn't agree, pull out the rule book. Then, if he doesn't stop, cut him out of the bets.

[NiftyNiblick]

The best thing is to play with people who play like you play.

If you join a league, the protocols of the league were already in place.

If you help form a league, you know what the majority of founding members want.

 

And if you're a stickler about playing by the rules of golf, you need to play in an environment where that view is prevalent.  That's usually a serious golf club, and everybody doesn't really have the means to do that.

 

Let's put it this way. If you play at a crowded public course, the course itself would rather you didn't walk all the way back to the tee after not being able to find your drive.

 

Is this ideal? Of course not.  It's just the way it unfortunately is.

[Rusty1885]

The good thing about these people is that they get so anxious when they can't improve their lies. I play with a few like that, usually we play for a few bucks. On the “push” holes I usually pretend not to see or care about it, then I turn on my Hawkeye and start looking closely and even call out if they move the ball. It usually piss them off.

 

Almost 100% of the time they'd hit it fat. I love playing with these guys. There's always a bright side.

[BIG STU]

Gotta agree with GB and Nifty on the case in point----- Most of the leagues around here play loose rules and post their handicaps for league play. Not saying it is right by any means but just saying---- What is the funny part is most of the ones here accuse others of cheating no joke. On the root rule thing most courses here do have a "local" root rule allowing you to move a ball where it is safe to hit. Some of the leagues here also have again a "local" rule allowing anchored putters. I have no problem with either one of those "local rules" What the problem for me with those guys which is a moot point anyhow is they do stuff like ground a club in the traps or hazard and stuff like that. The reason it is a moot point for me is because they do not allow me to play in the senior leagues due to me being an ex "pro" as they put it. Technically I never did get my AM status back. I have filled in a couple of times on team events playing persimmon woods and antique blade irons and still beat 99% of them from the gold ( senior) tees. Really I do not care to play with them because all they do is argue. I have my little groups I play with for fun now or real small money matches ($1 $5 bets $20 max cap) and everyone in the group agrees with the "rules for the game we are playing" Technically on the league stuff if you go strictly by the book I am not legal anyhow because most of the clubs in my signature both front line and vintage are "non conforming". I will contend ( in the spirit of arguing my case) that all my clubs were conforming on the date of manufacture to USGA and R&A standards. But that ramble is left better for another day and thread

 

Personally I play golf for fun and so should every one else that does not do it for a living. Part of that fun is playing with people you can have fun playing with and playing with the equipment you enjoy playing and how ever you enjoy playing whether it is strictly by the book or on the slide some so to speak 

[BIG STU]

The good thing about these people is that they get so anxious when they can't improve their lies. I play with a few like that, usually we play for a few bucks. On the “push” holes I usually pretend not to see or care about it, then I turn on my Hawkeye and start looking closely and even call out if they move the ball. It usually piss them off.

 

Almost 100% of the time they'd hit it fat. I love playing with these guys. There's always a bright side.

I love playing those "down matches" as we call them. Allows me to be creative on shots. I grew up in the Piedmont area of NC on public courses and we played them there. Trouble here is most of these guys do not want to play down matches period. I think I have played maybe 3 in the 18 years I have been at this beach excluding Pro events. 

[HardcoreLooper]

 

 

The good thing about these people is that they get so anxious when they can't improve their lies...

It's become a part of their preshot routine. My favorite thing is to watch someone with a perfectly good lie move the ball.

 

And Nifty is right. When I belonged to a club, we always played for a few bucks. I never play for money now unless it's with old friends.

 

My dad's senior group at his club had a split because some guys didn't want to play by the rules of the group.

 

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[revkev]

The best thing is to play with people who play like you play.

If you join a league, the protocols of the league were either already in place.

If you help form a league, you know what the majority of founding members want.

 

And if you're a stickler about playing by the rules of golf, you need to play in an environment where that view is prevalent. That's usually a serious golf club, and everybody doesn't really have the means to do that.

 

Let's put it this way. If you play at a crowded public course, the course itself would rather you didn't walk all the way back to the tee after not being able to find your drive.

 

Is this ideal? Of course not. It's just the way it unfortunately is.

This is exactly right! Most leagues allow you to move the ball in the fairway, to give putts and there will s normally a local rule that grants a drop away from tree roots. Is that the case with this league?

 

 

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[golfinnut]

The league I'm in allows the ball to be moved while in the fairway & always gives "gimmies" but really only in the essence of speeding up play.  Otherwise, these guys would be out there all night.  As it is, they take almost 2 1/2 hours to play nine holes sometimes.  If they played completely by the rules, they would take even longer.  

I think that's the main reason why most clubs or leagues do that ... just to speed up play.  Now my opinion on it is I don't care how you play, just play fast.  I'm of the age now that I will "roll the ball" in my fairway most of the time just so I can have a better time.  Nothing is more frustrating than hitting a great drive and ending up in a canyon of a divot.  Will my handicap be that affected by it ... I don't think so.  I played competitively back in HS & college, so I know how to play the ball down but I don't do that anymore.  If I'm playing for some cash, we will establish the rules at the beginning of the round so that everyone is on the same page and there is no confusion.  I don't care one way or the other what the rules are.  You want to play the back tees ... OK.  You want to play the ball down ... sure.  Gimmies .... why not.  Roll the ball ... happy to.  I will take your money regardless!  HA!  

Back when I used to play with my father & his buddies, we would play for some cash.  I would have to play everything down, while they could roll the ball Everywhere, including the rough.  WTH?!  I still took their money.  Including my father's but he never paid me.  HA!  

Bottom line is this will always be the case in the amateur world of golf, regardless.  You just have to grin and bear it and either go along with it or you will end up playing by yourself or you just won't be playing for money with anyone.  Don't let the rule violators get you down.  None of us are PGA Tour players and we don't do this for a living.  So let it go and play your own game & stop worrying about what others are doing.

[SteddyGolf]

Unless you are playing for Benjamins or other high stakes, do what gives you the best opportunity to enjoy the game. It's your time and your green fee.

 

If you put in your score for an approved handicap and you bumped your ball all over the course then more power to you. If it makes you feel better to claim a 8 when you are really a 14 your handicap doesn't effect me in the least.

 

I normally play by the rules but I don't care one single bit if others do not. At the end of the day it's me against me (and the course) the other players are just there as accessories .

 

 

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[MaxEntropy]

In our league, we have a few unique "local" rules, including rolling the ball. At the same time, none of us have established official handicaps. Our league secretary has a spreadsheet to calculate/update for league use only. I let the various apps I use track/update my "handicap" just so I have a good history of my trending, but have no intention of ever playing in anything that requires an official handicap, at least for now.

[tony@CIC]

Gotta agree with GB and Nifty on the case in point----- Most of the leagues around here play loose rules and post their handicaps for league play. Not saying it is right by any means but just saying---- What is the funny part is most of the ones here accuse others of cheating no joke. On the root rule thing most courses here do have a "local" root rule allowing you to move a ball where it is safe to hit. Some of the leagues here also have again a "local" rule allowing anchored putters. I have no problem with either one of those "local rules" What the problem for me with those guys which is a moot point anyhow is they do stuff like ground a club in the traps or hazard and stuff like that. The reason it is a moot point for me is because they do not allow me to play in the senior leagues due to me being an ex "pro" as they put it. Technically I never did get my AM status back. I have filled in a couple of times on team events playing persimmon woods and antique blade irons and still beat 99% of them from the gold ( senior) tees. Really I do not care to play with them because all they do is argue. I have my little groups I play with for fun now or real small money matches ($1 $5 bets $20 max cap) and everyone in the group agrees with the "rules for the game we are playing" Technically on the league stuff if you go strictly by the book I am not legal anyhow because most of the clubs in my signature both front line and vintage are "non conforming". I will contend ( in the spirit of arguing my case) that all my clubs were conforming on the date of manufacture to USGA and R&A standards. But that ramble is left better for another day and thread

 

Personally I play golf for fun and so should every one else that does not do it for a living. Part of that fun is playing with people you can have fun playing with and playing with the equipment you enjoy playing and how ever you enjoy playing whether it is strictly by the book or on the slide some so to speak

Same here, the rules are 'slightly loose' when we're just playing for fun. A foot away from the cup - yup that's a gimme, ball on a tree root and you'll hurt yourself hitting it - yeah you can move it. Tournament play on the other hand is strictly by the book.

[BIG STU]

Tony you and I are on the same page here. I do not have a official handicap now since I do not play any comps needing one any more and besides technically more than half of my bag is deemed "non conforming" I do have a friend of mine who is physically disabled  but is a computer whiz. He has the software to do the handicap thing. He does mine for my purposes and several other guys non official handicaps. I can remember back in the day when I would be paired with golfers from out of town. Two of the first things I would tell them was about the local root rule and you are playing at sea level. I would add you are here on Vacation having a good time and we are not in the US Open so do not bust a wrist or a club on a damn root. As far as stipulated handicap rounds here on the leagues those guys play under the same rules for all of them even though not strictly USGA legal but I do not see any of them attempting to qualify for a Senior Mid Am or the US Senior Open. Their caps are for league play only. Yeah you wanna roll it fine we can do that or if you want to play it down we can do that too. I am pretty flexible in the game department not so much any more in the body department. 

[Kenny B]

Technically on the league stuff if you go strictly by the book I am not legal anyhow because most of the clubs in my signature both front line and vintage are "non conforming". I will contend ( in the spirit of arguing my case) that all my clubs were conforming on the date of manufacture to USGA and R&A standards. But that ramble is left better for another day and thread

 

Stu...  I'm not sure that your vintage clubs are non-conforming unless there is a problem with groove spacing.  I seem to remember that ALL clubs manufactured before 1984 had V-grooves and would conform to the 2010 rule.  It was Ping who introduced the square grooves and put them closer together that started this whole mess.

 

Anyway, unless you play on Tour or in USGA-sanctioned events, the old square grooves are valid even for handicap purposes until 2024.  Supposedly, at that time the USGA will consider if the rule is working out.  It's a sore spot for me.  Sure, let's change the grooves on wedges so that 99.9% of the golfing public will have a more difficult experience, just so that the top players don't get as much spin out of the rough {read sarcasm}.

[Charli]

Yep you let them do it. Then play them for some money and discuss the rules. I love them players.

[Reesedw]

Zkilo:

 You do not have to play with them.. It is all about choices.. What you choose and what they choose.. I will always move my ball from a root unless I'm playing in league.. I'm sorry golf equipment is expensive and I personally do not want to break a club or hurt myself.. All the other things are just that things.. Play your game have fun and enjoy life.. If it's not fun playing with these people then Don't. 

 

If it is in league then call them on it. and make sure their are others to stand up for your call, so that you do not get into a he said situation.. 

 

But make the choice that is best for you.. Me, I'm playing golf and enjoying life.. and not playing with someone that takes liberties with the rules to take my money, points or such.. But that's just me.. 

 

 

And unless their is Something significant on the line then its just them playing golf the way they want.. and that's ok also.. My FIL is 81 he takes a few liberties here and their, Hell I give him a few.. as well as his best friend.. but Thats OK by me.. and my choice.. 

 

Do what you have to.. but enjoy playing your game more than being mad at someone else's game.. 

[zkilo]

Perhaps I can clarify my rant. When I play with my daughter or my sweetness, it's for fun. With guys, by our nature We Are Competitive. It in our DNA. So when there's a tree root go ahead move it but not 4 feet away, when you are under a tree, guess what, you put yourself under the tree. Play it, don't move it to give yourself an advantage over your crappy shot. I have to do play my crappy shots, and there and a lot of those, Golf should still be fun. By our nature we, as men, are very competitive with other men, but that's part of the fun. Why should you be allowed, with a poor shot be allowed to enhance that shot. I wouldn't be playing this game if not for the fun but also the competitive nature of the game.

[Kenny B]

Perhaps I can clarify my rant. When I play with my daughter or my sweetness, it's for fun. With guys, by our nature We Are Competitive. It in our DNA. So when there's a tree root go ahead move it but not 4 feet away, when you are under a tree, guess what, you put yourself under the tree. Play it, don't move it to give yourself an advantage over your crappy shot. I have to do play my crappy shots, and there and a lot of those, Golf should still be fun. By our nature we, as men, are very competitive with other men, but that's part of the fun. Why should you be allowed, with a poor shot be allowed to enhance that shot. I wouldn't be playing this game if not for the fun but also the competitive nature of the game.

Just for the record... the Ladies Club at my club are more sticklers for rules than the Men's Club.  My wife plays with the ladies some of the time.  I never play with the men's club.  The men have certain "rules".  The ladies don't.  

 

One example:  My wife is one of the better players in the Ladies Club in a team better ball event.  The #9 hole is adjacent to the driving range, and range balls are common in the fairway.  They are yellow; my wife plays a yellow Srixon Z-Star.  While she was waiting for another lady to hit her ball, she hit a range ball back into the range.  We do that all the time when the two of us play.  A lady on her team told her that was practicing and wasn't allowed.  True statement.  My wife said "Do you want to give me a penalty?"  The lady said "Well, no, that would hurt the team."  The ladies know the rules.

[Sluggo42]

and you have the cheaters that go the other way with their 15 indexes who haven't shot over a 75 in the last 10 years...

[Kenny B]

and you have the cheaters that go the other way with their 15 indexes who haven't shot over a 75 in the last 10 years...

That's why I don't play in the Men's Club at my course.  The club championship was two weekends ago.  With my index I would be in the second flight.  A guy took second place as an 11 handicap... shot 3 rounds in the 70's.  I'm lucky to shoot 3 rounds in the 70's in a month playing 4 times a week.

[Charli]

Kenny that's when you call him a pos

[tony@CIC]

That's why I don't play in the Men's Club at my course.  The club championship was two weekends ago.  With my index I would be in the second flight.  A guy took second place as an 11 handicap... shot 3 rounds in the 70's.  I'm lucky to shoot 3 rounds in the 70's in a month playing 4 times a week.

This is where the club Pro has to step in. I had a situation a few months back on men's league match play night. I was playing against a guy who was clearly better than me on my best day and I was giving him 6 strokes on 9 holes. I complained to the Club Pro who ended up adjusting his card for Men's League.

[Mr. 82]

I'll just say what others are saying.  I have a Saturday group that is just for fun.  We don't play for money, and we keep our own scores.  I'm not in a bet with them, so if they want to drop a ball 100 yards in front of the green and start counting from there, what do I care.  Frankly, I don't even know if they post any scores for handicap purposes.

 

As far as the gimme putts go, again, as long as there is no money on the line, then I'd give him the 20 footer if it bothered him that much.  He'll never get better, but it's not costing me a penny.

 

I have another buddy that I play with where we like to have a wager where the loser buys dinner.  But because he plays in a lot of tournaments, he insists we play by strict rules, including playing it as it lies, hitting from wherever it ends up, including tree roots, and we don't give each other even the 6 inch putt.  We putt everything out.  But these rules we agreed upon prior to teeing off every time.

 

That would be my advice to you.  Before you start play with your buddies, in whatever format you are in, agree to the terms of the match prior to teeing off.  If you want to play gimmes and preferred lies, or whatever, just agree to it before you start.  That way once you are into the match you know what to expect, and so does the other guy.  That way no one gets pissed, and they can't say they didn't agree to whatever terms you discussed and decided on before you hit a shot.  This usually solves 99% of all debates about cheating or whatever on the golf course.

[MaxEntropy]

 But these rules we agreed upon prior to teeing off every time.

 

 

IMO, that's the key. Set the expectations from the start. I used to have a "high stakes" game with a friend pretty frequently and we always agreed from the start what "local" rules we were implementing.

 

BTW, the stakes were always a "pretty blue Powerade". Big money!

[Alf. S]

To any other UK members do you ever get any of this sh!t when playing at any level of competition/society golf?

 

In non-competitive games i will ask my playing partner if I can move my ball sometimes out of a divot or at the moment playing in Tenerife I won't use my new irons out of lava sand so ask if I can move into the 1st cut. But competitive golf then it is by the rules (including local rules). If you don't want to play it as it lies then take a penalty drop. If you intentionally improve your lie by placing 2 stroke penalty. Playing fast and loose with rules just leads to conflict and where does it stop?

 

Who ever runs the league should stipulate what rules the league adheres to, including any local rules. Anybody not adhering to them should be called out.

 

 

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[DaveP043]

One example:  My wife is one of the better players in the Ladies Club in a team better ball event.  The #9 hole is adjacent to the driving range, and range balls are common in the fairway.  They are yellow; my wife plays a yellow Srixon Z-Star.  While she was waiting for another lady to hit her ball, she hit a range ball back into the range.  We do that all the time when the two of us play.  A lady on her team told her that was practicing and wasn't allowed.  True statement.  My wife said "Do you want to give me a penalty?"  The lady said "Well, no, that would hurt the team."  The ladies know the rules.

Do they REALLY?  I obviously don't know exactly how your wife hit the ball back to the range, but that CAN be done without violating the rules.

 

 

7-2/5  Hitting Practice Range Ball Back to Range

Q.During play of a hole, a player saw some balls from the adjoining practice range lying on the course and flicked one back to the range with his club. Is there a penalty under Rule 7-2?

A.In some circumstances the hitting of a practice range ball back towards the range during the play of a hole would be a breach of Rule 7-2, but the casual flicking of a range ball, apparently only for the purpose of tidying up the course, is not a breach.

[Kenny B]

Do they REALLY?  I obviously don't know exactly how your wife hit the ball back to the range, but that CAN be done without violating the rules.

I did not know that one!  Thanks for sharing.  I will send this to my wife and she can update the "rule nazi" next time she sees her!!

[srooch2]

I HATE when someone improves their lie! Even when we're playing casually. I compare it to playing say basketball 5 on 3 or some other example that would make another sport easier. The only defense against a golfer is the course and themselves. It's the whole idea of the sport, if you didn't like that lie and where your ball eneded up then don't hit it there next time. I don't like "gimmes" either, same instance and I don't think walking up and tapping in adds anytime on to the round either. But I do understand that people can play how they wish, that's why I either play alone or with people of like mindedness.

 

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[djahubes]

Lots of good stuff here, I play in multiple different groups, some treat OB as laterals for pace of play. I don't quite like that one but it's not the end of the world either. Some are generous with “give me” putts. That is where things get tricky for me. We usually go off as 4-5 groups of 5 and there is action all over the place. If someone in a different group is giving generous putts, and we are being more strict, then it's not fair across the whole. My group in Monterey marked 12 in and taped the shaft of the putter. Anything inside was good, anything outside was putted. I found that worked out the best.

 

 

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[Mr. 82]

Do they REALLY?  I obviously don't know exactly how your wife hit the ball back to the range, but that CAN be done without violating the rules.

I was playing in a fourball tournament last weekend and was on the 10th hole, which was adjacent to the driving range.  There was a range ball in the middle of the fairway.  While waiting on the others to play, I picked up the range ball, and threw it over towards the range.

 

How hard is that honestly?  I never used a club to move the range ball, but the purpose was serve by throwing a line drive to get rid of the offending object.  Rules issue solved.

 

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