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revkev

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I still don't get the 460cc thing...

 

DJ hit a Persimmon Driver that is like 150cc 300 yards. Extra air inside the club is BS.

 

If you find the middle of the 460cc why couldn't you find the middle of a 300cc?

 

The middle is the middle no matter if it is 1000cc or 100c.

 

Tiger hit a 175cc Driver 300+, and probably still could.

 

I'm glad I am in the 1% that hates 460cc drivers, gives me something to argue about.

460 cc is about forgiveness and ability to relocate the CG, which obviously would help amateurs more than pros.

 

Why do people keep bringing up what pros would do with smaller drivers?

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This could be a blatant violation of the morals code,

but it's also totally and inarguably relevant to the game of golf.

 

I would bet everything on the widening income gap being the biggest single factor in the scaling back of golf.

 

Factory workers played golf in the 1960s and 1970s.

Lots of them.

And those folks are all elderly like me or dead now.

It had nothing to do with the yet unborn Tiger Woods.

 

Now, we hardly have any factory workers in comparison.

I have no idea what that has to do with the moral code... Or frankly just about anything...
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If someone wants to blades or smaller wood heads, the options are out there for them.

 

Why do those people need to judge others that want to use different equipment that makes the game easier for them?

 

Play what makes you happy and helps you get the most enjoyment out of the game and let others do the same.

 

It's

 

That

 

Friggen

 

Simple

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I like the point made here. Shaq couldn't switch out and shoot a different basketball to try and correct his atrocious free throw shooting . Tom Brady can't legally play with flatter or smaller footballs to throw further or more accurately. It would be interesting to see Rory or Tiger or Rickie all have to play a set of clubs that had the exact same flex characteristics, lofts, lengths, and so forth. Since they are all fine tuned athletes, I am sure they would still dominate the sport without a problem, but it would be interesting to see how their strategy and club selection changed to accommodate issues they experienced with the clubs, since they would no longer be tuned exactly to their specific needs. Stricter standardization of equipment may actually be a possible solution to the distance problem instead of trying to roll back golf ball technology, who knows. But I think that would put a lot of the custom component companies out of business, so it would never happen anyway.

 

As far as people saying bifurcation would hurt companies from a marketing standpoint, I doubt it would make any type of difference. People bought Nike golf clubs and golf clubs because of Tiger, but how many people did you see playing the blade irons he was playing? Same with Rickie Fowler - people that love him will still go out and buy Cobra clubs, but I think it is a vast minority that actually goes out and buys the Cobra blade irons that he is bagging. I think people are more loyal to brand name than the actual specific equipment that golfers are using - i.e. "Rory hits the ball far, he plays Taylor Made, so I am going to go buy Taylor Made" more so than "I am going to buy the Taylor Made M3 driver".

 

I also wonder about what effect course design change (longer rough, tighter fairways, more hazards) would have on recreational golfers. Let's say that happened, so suddenly pros rarely play driver anymore off the tee box, they start just using woods and irons. Does the recreational golfer start to do the same, since, lets be honest, the majority of the public tries to emulate what the pros do, especially when you are first learning any type of sport. Kids chuck 3's at a young age in basketball now (which, as a basketball coach, I hate since the majority of the time this messes up their shooting form), and everyone wants to hit the deep bomb like Dustin now, so would people stop using certain clubs and follow what pros do, even though it actually hurts your chance to score better? Does golf become less fun to watch or play because if this - would you want to watch US Open type conditions every single week?

Interesting thoughts. I enjoy s reading them and wish we were here with our favorite beverages to discuss

 

@nifty there is no doubt that there were multiple factors that led to the post Tiger boom bust in golf. But the economy has rebounded significantly. The cost of the game has decreased. There are more people who can afford to play golf now than could in 2004 when the sport was booming.

 

And I agree there is a widening economic divide but that has very little impact on golf.

 

So my question is why don't more people point to the controversial USGA decisions as a factor in Golf's decline. They correspond every bit as much as anything else does.

 

 

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So my question is why don't more people point to the controversial USGA decisions as a factor in Golf's decline. They correspond every bit as much as anything else does.

 

 

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Which ones do you think factor in to the decline? Just curious, I think the USGA is as worthless as a lot of other organizations, golf related or not.

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Interesting thoughts. I enjoy s reading them and wish we were here with our favorite beverages to discuss

 

@nifty there is no doubt that there were multiple factors that led to the post Tiger boom bust in golf. But the economy has rebounded significantly. The cost of the game has decreased. There are more people who can afford to play golf now than could in 2004 when the sport was booming.

 

And I agree there is a widening economic divide but that has very little impact on golf.

 

So my question is why don't more people point to the controversial USGA decisions as a factor in Golf's decline. They correspond every bit as much as anything else does.

 

 

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I think the larger factor in golf's decline is different generations.

The millennials that should have been the next generation of golfers were attracted more to social media and are part of an instant gratification society. They don't understand the value of 4 hours on a golf course and don't like the slow progression and hard work needed to become a good golfer. I am afraid golf isn't "techy" enough for millennials and future generations.

 

I think while the USGA has made a series of bad desicions for the game, it is too easy to blame the entire decline on them while 95% of golfers don't give two sh!ts what the USGA say.

 

Sorry for the get off my lawn rant. This post is simply made to create discussion not to offend anyone so please don't take it that way.

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I think the larger factor in golf's decline is different generations.

The millennials that should have been the next generation of golfers were attracted more to social media and are part of an instant gratification society. They don't understand the value of 4 hours on a golf course and don't like the slow progression and hard work needed to become a good golfer. I am afraid golf isn't "techy" enough for millennials and future generations.

 

I think while the USGA has made a series of bad desicions for the game, it is too easy to blame the entire decline on them while 95% of golfers don't give two sh!ts what the USGA say.

 

Sorry for the get off my lawn rant. This post is simply made to create discussion not to offend anyone so please don't take it that way.

I think any company that blames "millennials" for lack of interest in their product is lazy and doesn't have the self awareness that their company failed to adapt to changing markets (when markets have ALWAYS changed).

 

Millennials is nothing but a scape goat term

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I think any company that blames "millennials" for lack of interest in their product is lazy and doesn't have the self awareness that their company failed to adapt to changing markets (when markets have ALWAYS changed).

 

Millennials is nothing but a scape goat term

How would you change golf to better suit a changing market? I won't disagree that markets have changed but golf has weathered 400 years of changing markets. It has weathered the Industrial Revolution, WW1, WW2, and every other era without much change.

 

Is the answer digital golf on simulators or what?

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How would you change golf to better suit a changing market? I won't disagree that markets have changed but golf has weathered 400 years of changing markets. It has weathered the Industrial Revolution, WW1, WW2, and every other era without much change.

 

Is the answer digital golf on simulators or what?

Golf has changed a ton since then.

 

Equipment has changed. Television coverage has changed. The way clubs are sold has changed. Apparel and style has changed. Accessibility has changed dramatically (first tee programs, driving ranges, mini golf, top golf, etc)

 

The game itself doesn't have to change, but it can be expanded and consumed in different ways so that it grows as society as a whole changes

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I have no idea what that has to do with the moral code... Or frankly just about anything...

I'll explain for you, jlukes.

The widening income gap is a flat out political issue of the nature proscribed by the morals code.

 

I still think that all those baby boomer (and older than baby boomer) factory workers

who played golf in the days of high paying union factory jobs

have not been replaced now that we're fading away.

 

I was an office worker, a results accountant,

but I include myself with them because it was a good union job.

 

And Rev, I'm not comparing things to 2004.

I'm comparing them to the 50s, 60s, and 70s when working class golf exploded.

 

I hope that helps.

 

 

 

 

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Guys, I'm looking at the equipment such as the driver size maybe a bit different. I'm 72 all my peers and playing friends range from 65 to 80+ years old. Most need a driver the size of a Volkswagen Beetle just to hit the ball 150 yards. I'm not talking a handful of guys but entire senior communities. They want the most they can get out of their clubs and ball and they don't care what any ruling body has to say.

They are seniors with a couple bucks enjoying their retirement years and could care less what any Pro has “WITB”. I may not agree with their interpretation of the rules but what the he$$ it doesn't hurt anyone.

I think I got off track, anyway these folks spend money on clubs, balls, carts, all kinds of clothes and equipment mess with the dynamics this cash cow could go away.

 

 

 

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Rick

 

 

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5 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr       
7 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr      
5 hybrid; Cally Steelhead, Hazardous R2     
Irons; Mizuno JPX 923HM 7-GW Recoil 460 F2
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Golf has changed a ton since then.

 

Equipment has changed. Television coverage has changed. The way clubs are sold has changed. Apparel and style has changed. Accessibility has changed dramatically (first tee programs, driving ranges, mini golf, top golf, etc)

 

The game itself doesn't have to change, but it can be expanded and consumed in different ways so that it grows as society as a whole changes

I can agree with that. But at the end of the day, the game remains largely unchanged.

 

Sorry, if my posts came off as offensive, it has been a challenging day.

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Ping Glide 52* and 58* stiff

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My physical ailments robbed me of a possible game with Rickp.

 

We're about the same age and would have had similar handicaps.

 

We both wear Red Sox caps.

 

And I don't hate Florida, particularly between Christmas and Easter.

 

Wasn't to be, i guess, but I'm sure that it would have been a good time.

 

 

 

 

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My physical ailments robbed me of a possible game with Rickp.

 

We're about the same age and would have had similar handicaps.

 

We both wear Red Sox caps.

 

And I don't hate Florida, particularly between Christmas and Easter.

 

Wasn't to be, i guess, but I'm sure that it would have been a good time.

True that

 

 

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Rick

 

 

Left Hand, 

Driver; PXG 0311XF Cypher 50 gr Senior  
5 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr       
7 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr      
5 hybrid; Cally Steelhead, Hazardous R2     
Irons; Mizuno JPX 923HM 7-GW Recoil 460 F2
Wedges; Titleist S9 54*, Mizuno SW 56*

Putter; Waaay too many to list

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I'll explain for you, jlukes.

The widening income gap is a flat out political issue of the nature proscribed by the morals code.

 

I still think that all those baby boomer (and older than baby boomer) factory workers

who played golf in the days of high paying union factory jobs

have not been replaced now that we're fading away.

 

I was an office worker, a results accountant,

but I include myself with them because it was a good union job.

 

And Rev, I'm not comparing things to 2004.

I'm comparing them to the 50s, 60s, and 70s when working class golf exploded.

 

I hope that helps.

It does but way more people were playing golf in 2000 than in the 50's- 70's. Tiger created a boom like no one else.

 

I don't think it's political to say that the economy has changed. It becomes political when we discuss the whys - so we won't do that. The Economy has changed but there are lots of younger people with money who are not taking up golf. Keeping Merion and Shinnecock as championship venues are not on their list of concerns. That's not what's going to get them to take up the game.

 

 

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Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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True that

 

 

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Back in the day a “few” Adult Beverages

 

 

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Rick

 

 

Left Hand, 

Driver; PXG 0311XF Cypher 50 gr Senior  
5 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr       
7 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr      
5 hybrid; Cally Steelhead, Hazardous R2     
Irons; Mizuno JPX 923HM 7-GW Recoil 460 F2
Wedges; Titleist S9 54*, Mizuno SW 56*

Putter; Waaay too many to list

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If someone wants to blades or smaller wood heads, the options are out there for them.

 

Why do those people need to judge others that want to use different equipment that makes the game easier for them?

 

Play what makes you happy and helps you get the most enjoyment out of the game and let others do the same.

 

It's

 

That

 

Friggen

 

Simple

Gotta agree with you 110% on that one even though I am of the Persimmon / Blades camp---- Since I do not play comps or serious money matches any more I enjoy playing the vintage stuff, But with that being said I could care less what anyone else plays as long as they have fun doing so. I am going to play what I want to and so should anyone else

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 G

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I think the larger factor in golf's decline is different generations.

The millennials that should have been the next generation of golfers were attracted more to social media and are part of an instant gratification society. They don't understand the value of 4 hours on a golf course and don't like the slow progression and hard work needed to become a good golfer. I am afraid golf isn't "techy" enough for millennials and future generations.

 

I think while the USGA has made a series of bad desicions for the game, it is too easy to blame the entire decline on them while 95% of golfers don't give two sh!ts what the USGA say.

 

Sorry for the get off my lawn rant. This post is simply made to create discussion not to offend anyone so please don't take it that way.

And I will PROUDLY tell you or anyone else that I am one of the 95% of the golfers that you mentioned  that does not give "two Sh!ts" about the USGA or the R&A or the PGA for that matter

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

 G

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I can agree with that. But at the end of the day, the game remains largely unchanged.

 

Sorry, if my posts came off as offensive, it has been a challenging day.

FWIW--- You or anyone else in this thread have not offended me in any way shape form or fashion. I like different opinions it is brain food

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

 G

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Which ones do you think factor in to the decline? Just curious, I think the USGA is as worthless as a lot of other organizations, golf related or not.

The groove rule declared war against recreational players. True a careful read meant there was a reasonable period of time to change out irons for us but what most heard was - go drop a grand because we think there's a chance that they guys on tour have an advantage hitting big out of the rough now. It came at a time when the economy was tanking - that was a time when a number of people moved on to other recreational options.

 

Next was the anchor ban and then all the crazy (from a casual fans perspective) penalties in the US Open and Women's US Open.

 

While I know it's not their intent there are times when it seems as if the USGA is trying to preserve the game by exclusion rather than inclusion. Rick's comments are insightful - we've reached a point where the USGA has very little say over what happens in golf. So now when you are playing you need to ask what the rules are - seriously - I play by two sets of rules in my two leagues and I suppose a 3rd in casual rounds with my friends. I've stopped entering scores towards a USGA handicap because that would be a sham. I have handicaps in each of my leagues should there be a question.

 

 

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Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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And I will PROUDLY tell you or anyone else that I am one of the 95% of the golfers that you mentioned that does not give "two Sh!ts" about the USGA or the R&A or the PGA for that matter

Your correct.

I began to think the same way about 6 years ago.

 

 

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Rick

 

 

Left Hand, 

Driver; PXG 0311XF Cypher 50 gr Senior  
5 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr       
7 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr      
5 hybrid; Cally Steelhead, Hazardous R2     
Irons; Mizuno JPX 923HM 7-GW Recoil 460 F2
Wedges; Titleist S9 54*, Mizuno SW 56*

Putter; Waaay too many to list

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My physical ailments robbed me of a possible game with Rickp.

 

We're about the same age and would have had similar handicaps.

 

We both wear Red Sox caps.

 

And I don't hate Florida, particularly between Christmas and Easter.

 

Wasn't to be, i guess, but I'm sure that it would have been a good time.

I'm with you in the physical ailment. I've had more physical problems in the last 2-3 years than in the previous 70.

I've got 2 procedures coming up, knee & shoulder. That's just next couple months.

Nifty take care of yourself

 

 

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Rick

 

 

Left Hand, 

Driver; PXG 0311XF Cypher 50 gr Senior  
5 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr       
7 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr      
5 hybrid; Cally Steelhead, Hazardous R2     
Irons; Mizuno JPX 923HM 7-GW Recoil 460 F2
Wedges; Titleist S9 54*, Mizuno SW 56*

Putter; Waaay too many to list

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Anybody else think the Ryder Cup is set up perfect and it negates the distance issue all together??

 

 

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Anybody else think the Ryder Cup is set up perfect and it negates the distance issue all together??

 

 

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It is perfect. If all events were setup like this, we wouldn't have this thread.

Wilson Staff C300 9.0* Fujikura Pro 58 stiff

Callaway Rogue 3W Mitsubishi Diamana D+ LTD 80 stiff

Mizuno MP-18 MMC FLI-HI 2 iron UST Mamiya Recoil 95 stiff

Ping I200's 4-W Aerotech Steelfiber I110 CW stiff

Ping Glide 52* and 58* stiff

Bettinardi Studio Stock #38 Armlock

 

 

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....

So now when you are playing you need to ask what the rules are - seriously - I play by two sets of rules in my two leagues and I suppose a 3rd in casual rounds with my friends. I've stopped entering scores towards a USGA handicap because that would be a sham. I have handicaps in each of my leagues should there be a question.

 

I wasn't going to join in this thread as I don't really have anything new and different to contribute .. tho I have found the posts in here interesting .. but as I read through I increasingly wondered:

"Well .. just what exactly is a handicap index going to mean going forward????"

 

Rev, sir I applaud you as a man of integrity. But I feel you're already .. and soon to be even more .. an increasingly rare anachronism (not calling old - calling you HONEST) .. ie. if players already use whatever equipment and play by whatever rules then what to make of their claimed handicap?

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1 hour ago, Puttingmatt said:

I agree the course set up at the Ryder Cup was a great set up for a position golf player,

was not just a long ball players venue, like most PGA events.

For better or for worse, there area  lot of people who really WANT to see players hitting it long.  The course at the Ryder Cup rewarded fairways more than length off the tee, and I think it was just fine.   Playing conditions like that for routine tournaments, taking the driver out of most player's hands, might decrease viewership.  I don't know for sure, just guessing.  And the PGA Tour is nothing more than an entertainment business, they're all about sponsorship and advertising money, they're not going to prioritize precision over distance if that means losing viewers.  Add to that, I have the impression that a majority of players simply don't enjoy really difficult conditions.  

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