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revkev

Distance Issue

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Hit ball, walk to ball, repeat. Why must everything be made so complicated?

 

The USGA has been in bed with club manufacturers for years. First, it was “old clubs will be non-conforming, you'll need to buy new clubs.” OEM's rejoiced $$$$$$$$!

 

Now it's “Those clubs you bought hit the ball too far, we need to dial it back, so what you just bought will soon be non-conforming again.” OEM's rejoice again $$$$$$$$!

 

The problems aren't with the game of golf. The game of golf is as beautiful and simple as it's always been. The problems are the people in board rooms at the OEMs and the USGA who don't give a damn about the game, just how much money they can extract from the golfing consumer.

 

 

 

 

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+1 I could not have said it any better myself

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A football is a football, a basketball is a basketball, and a baseball is a baseball. The players using these objects don't, for the most part, get to select the brand, type or technology. These sports attempt to standardize equipment to eliminate deviation while increasing the importance of the player's and not the equipment's performance.

 

I like technology and love the pursuit of the perfect clubs. Still could you imagine a golf tournament where all participants had to use the same clubs and balls? Rory shows up to The Open empty handed because the tournament provides his clubs which are the exact same clubs as all other competitors?

 

On the flip side could you imagine a clean up hitter walking up to bat and tossing the catcher a baseball of his choosing? Maybe it was developed to go higher and longer or maybe it produces just line drives and ground balls.

 

 

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I like the point made here. Shaq couldn't switch out and shoot a different basketball to try and correct his atrocious free throw shooting . Tom Brady can't legally play with flatter or smaller footballs to throw further or more accurately.  It would be interesting to see Rory or Tiger or Rickie all have to play a set of clubs that had the exact same flex characteristics, lofts, lengths, and so forth. Since they are all fine tuned athletes, I am sure they would still dominate the sport without a problem, but it would be interesting to see how their strategy and club selection changed to accommodate issues they experienced with the clubs, since they would no longer be tuned exactly to their specific needs. Stricter standardization of equipment may actually be a possible solution to the distance problem instead of trying to roll back golf ball technology, who knows. But I think that would put a lot of the custom component companies out of business, so it would never happen anyway. 

 

As far as people saying bifurcation would hurt companies from a marketing standpoint, I doubt it would make any type of difference. People bought Nike golf clubs and golf clubs because of Tiger, but how many people did you see playing the blade irons he was playing? Same with Rickie Fowler - people that love him will still go out and buy Cobra clubs, but I think it is a vast minority that actually goes out and buys the Cobra blade irons that he is bagging. I think people are more loyal to brand name than the actual specific equipment that golfers are using - i.e. "Rory hits the ball far, he plays Taylor Made, so I am going to go buy Taylor Made" more so than "I am going to buy the Taylor Made M3 driver".   

 

I also wonder about what effect course design change (longer rough, tighter fairways, more hazards) would have on recreational golfers. Let's say that happened, so suddenly pros rarely play driver anymore off the tee box, they start just using woods and irons. Does the recreational golfer start to do the same, since, lets be honest, the majority of the public tries to emulate what the pros do, especially when you are first learning any type of sport. Kids chuck 3's at a young age in basketball now (which, as a basketball coach, I hate since the majority of the time this messes up their shooting form), and everyone wants to hit the deep bomb like Dustin now, so would people stop using certain clubs and follow what pros do, even though it actually hurts your chance to score better? Does golf become less fun to watch or play because if this - would you want to watch US Open type conditions every single week?

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I personally believe that a rollback or bifurcation would be horrible for the game! For one, statistics show that for amateurs, distance has slightly decreased over the last few years. The only area that has shown an increase is on tour.

 

I was thinking about that when I was doing the MGS survey. If anything my issue with distance is loss of it.

 

 

 

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If they make 250-300cc drivers I am all for it. Just lower the compression limit a touch....

 

Get rid of 460cc drivers. Please.

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If they make 250-300cc drivers I am all for it. Just lower the compression limit a touch....

 

Get rid of 460cc drivers. Please.

I used to hit my little steel Golfsmith driver farther than I hit my current one. Now, I was 30+ years younger, and swung the club a LOT faster, but distance wasn't a problem for me then... Heck, Tiger hit his Cobra and Titleist steel drivers just as far as DJ hits his now. No distance problem then.

 

 

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IHeck, Tiger hit his Cobra and Titleist steel drivers just as far as DJ hits his now. No distance problem then.

 

 

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This! Exactly this!

Distance has leveled out in the past 15 years since the institution of the solid core ball. No problem then.

With the new limits on balls and clubs such as initial velocity and COR, there is no need to rollback. They just need to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. And they have done that.

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I did the first survey and I came away thinking " why am I filling this out?"

My thoughts were that I am a recreational golfer and distance control is purely an issue at the professional level. I or 99.99 % of the rec golfers out there cannot consistently take advantage of the technology offered to them and would buy a hammer if the manufacturers touted them as distance enhancing clubs.

And the mix of questions aimed at us along with questions about professional events made no sense.

I was thinking am I qualified to answer these?

Do I know if rolling back the ball will affect distance??? Absolutely not.

Distance roll back issue shoukd be handled by a committee that consists of key stakeholders - Tours,professional golfers, course owners,superintendents,etc.

 

I'll go back and see what is different about this survey. let's see

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I might be in the minority here, but I don't think golf courses are long enough, by a lot. I am brand new to the game, having just started 2 months ago, but I can already hit it over 300 on most tee shots I manage to have go straight. I'm young, 27, and a life long ice hockey player. I played junior, college, and semi-pro. I switched sports because I simply cannot play hockey forever and I was interested in Tigers comeback. But after having seen DJ, Rory, et all crush the ball, I was hooked. I wanted to hit it just as far and am working towards that. Golf is no longer a sport for the average body typed individual at the pro level. Legitimate athletes are playing the sport now. There certainly is a distance problem, courses aren't long enough. I would quit immediately if I was forced to use equipment that dampened my athletic ability to perform. Golf is having a hard time attracting individuals like myself and this will only make that worse. I want to see people accomplish inhuman feats when watching sports that's what makes them entertaining. Smashing a ball 400 yards while simultaneously keeping it in play with the goal of the lowest score possible is just that, entertaining. Fitness is a huge part of my life and younger people like me, if I'm given something to hamper that, how is that fair? The ONLY thing I could get behind would be a standardized ball played at all PGA contests. Hockey is highly specialized and personalized with equipment, but everyone still uses the same puck.

 

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I have said this before. If the USGA rolls back the ball the ball manufacturers will go broke. There are literally billions upon billions of balls meeting today's standards out there. Most golfers play exactly like Rev stated as in they do their own thing and play by their rules. I for one am not going to switch to a declawed ball no way.

 

And Rover Rick i have not renewed my membership with the USGA for over 5 years now. This is one fat redneck that they will not get a red hot cent off of either.

Interesting, I dropped my USGA membership 3 years ago.

 

 

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I did the first survey and I came away thinking " why am I filling this out?"

My thoughts were that I am a recreational golfer and distance control is purely an issue at the professional level. I or 99.99 % of the rec golfers out there cannot consistently take advantage of the technology offered to them and would buy a hammer if the manufacturers touted them as distance enhancing clubs.

And the mix of questions aimed at us along with questions about professional events made no sense.

I was thinking am I qualified to answer these?

Do I know if rolling back the ball will affect distance??? Absolutely not.

Distance roll back issue shoukd be handled by a committee that consists of key stakeholders - Tours,professional golfers, course owners,superintendents,etc.

 

I'll go back and see what is different about this survey. let's see

I hope you were doing the USGA survey because you're like me, and the rest of the posters to this thread.  Because you hope the USGA will consider the great mass of everyday golfers, as well as the course owners, the pro tours, the manufacturers, and all the rest of the interested parties.  I said it before, I feel certain that the USGA paid attention to the last major survey, the one about the proposed rule changes.  I hope they pay attention to the current survey the same way.

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If they make 250-300cc drivers I am all for it. Just lower the compression limit a touch....

 

Get rid of 460cc drivers. Please.

I don't think that they need to further regulate balls.  If anything, they should bring the 1.62" ball back for those who choose to play it because it's a big part of the game's tradition.

 

(I won't get into an argument with the young ones who don't care about anything that they don't remember.)

 

The 460cc drivers have been around a while now, and they STILL look like something from the Flintstones.

A 300 cc limit really shouldn't bother anybody except Daphne and whoever else makes massive size headcovers that can double as hand puppets.

 

That's the only equipment rule change that I'd like to see.

Well, fifteen clubs and fewer restrictions on scoring grooves would get my vote as well.

We should be allowed to fill all fifteen slots in a cart bag (not that anything stopped me from doing that anyway).,

 

Overall, though, when it comes to equipment, I have much bigger gripes with the OEMs than I do with the USGA.

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If they make 250-300cc drivers I am all for it. Just lower the compression limit a touch....

 

Get rid of 460cc drivers. Please.

Changes are okay so long as they don't impact my !game?

 

Shanks you don't have to play a 460 cc driver but for goodness sakes the overwhelming majority of people do. Even guys on tour do - I'm guessing all of them use a driver that's over 430 cc's because you can do more with it technologically. If you don't want that advantage by all means knock yourself out because no one is stopping you.

 

Reducing driver head size would almost instantly drive people from the game or make them cheaters if they want to continue to hold a USGA handicap.

 

I never tried an anchored putter. I thought they should have been declared non-conforming when they first came out. But once they were allowed and there was a generation of players using them I thought the decision to ban them was short sighted and unfair. I would never use a driving iron but wouldn't call for a ban on them either.

 

Significantly fewer people play golf in the wake of the groove and anchor changes. I'm with Dave P in hoping the USGA will listen to what people say on those surveys. They are courting disaster for the growth of the game if some sort of roll back is the end result.

 

 

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Reducing driver head size would almost instantly drive people from the game or make them cheaters if they want to continue to hold a USGA handicap.

This could possibly be true, Rev, but I don't believe it.

Maybe it's because I'm older, or maybe it's because I  don't hit it well myself,

but the huge, bulbous driver always looked like a mockery of the game to me.

 

It's almost as if one were allowed to swing a tennis-racket shaped, titanium bat in baseball.

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Changes are okay so long as they don't impact my !game?

 

Shanks you don't have to play a 460 cc driver but for goodness sakes the overwhelming majority of people do. Even guys on tour do - I'm guessing all of them use a driver that's over 430 cc's because you can do more with it technologically. If you don't want that advantage by all means knock yourself out because no one is stopping you.

 

Reducing driver head size would almost instantly drive people from the game or make them cheaters if they want to continue to hold a USGA handicap.

 

I never tried an anchored putter. I thought they should have been declared non-conforming when they first came out. But once they were allowed and there was a generation of players using them I thought the decision to ban them was short sighted and unfair. I would never use a driving iron but wouldn't call for a ban on them either.

 

Significantly fewer people play golf in the wake of the groove and anchor changes. I'm with Dave P in hoping the USGA will listen to what people say on those surveys. They are courting disaster for the growth of the game if some sort of roll back is the end result.

 

I'm guessing here, but I expect that any significant change would be phased in much the same way as the groove rule, which STILL doesn't effect most of us.  The ruling bodies have allowed a full 14 years between its enactment (2010) and its application to all golfers (2024).  Top level players, and elite amateurs will be expected to comply pretty quickly, but the rest of us would be likely to have a decade or more.

I don't know whether the current slight decline in golfers is due to equipment rules or not.  I think a big part of it is a correction to the very quick expansion in the Tiger years, but I don't know for sure.  Similarly, I don't know how any rollback would affect golf as a whole.  I think that, like with most things, golfers will adapt to whatever changes are made.  We may not like it at first, but I really doubt that many will really quit.

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This could be a blatant violation of the morals code,

but it's also totally and inarguably relevant to the game of golf.

 

I would bet everything on the widening income gap being the biggest single factor in the scaling back of golf.

 

Factory workers played golf in the 1960s and 1970s.

Lots of them.

And those folks are all elderly like me or dead now.

It had nothing to do with the yet unborn Tiger Woods.

 

Now, we hardly have any factory workers in comparison.

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I'm guessing here, but I expect that any significant change would be phased in much the same way as the groove rule, which STILL doesn't effect most of us.  The ruling bodies have allowed a full 14 years between its enactment (2010) and its application to all golfers (2024).  Top level players, and elite amateurs will be expected to comply pretty quickly, but the rest of us would be likely to have a decade or more.

I don't know whether the current slight decline in golfers is due to equipment rules or not.  I think a big part of it is a correction to the very quick expansion in the Tiger years, but I don't know for sure.  Similarly, I don't know how any rollback would affect golf as a whole.  I think that, like with most things, golfers will adapt to whatever changes are made.  We may not like it at first, but I really doubt that many will really quit.

I do not think it is due to equipment rules at all. I would say out of all the folks who play golf less than 5% are really in tune with the game and equipment rules. Out of that 95% left I would dare say 75% of them do not know if a club is conforming or not nor do they care. Around this area you have a lot of retirees that play in leagues. When the anchoring ban was going to take effect a lot of these older guys were going to quit the game period. The courses realized the potential loss of revenue. All of the leagues here that I know of voted to disregard the anchoring ban for league play. They basically disregard the groove rule too.  You see a lot of pre 2010 clubs in bags and no one gives 2 hoots. 

Personally I am one of those in the know on equipment and the game just like 99% of us on here and other sites. I do not play comps or stipulated events any more so I play older deemed non conforming equipment> Guess what? I do not care either and could care less what equipment someone else plays

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I don't think that they need to further regulate balls.  If anything, they should bring the 1.62" ball back for those who choose to play it because it's a big part of the game's tradition.

 

(I won't get into an argument with the young ones who don't care about anything that they don't remember.)

 

The 460cc drivers have been around a while now, and they STILL look like something from the Flintstones.

A 300 cc limit really shouldn't bother anybody except Daphne and whoever else makes massive size headcovers that can double as hand puppets.

 

That's the only equipment rule change that I'd like to see.

Well, fifteen clubs and fewer restrictions on scoring grooves would get my vote as well.

We should be allowed to fill all fifteen slots in a cart bag (not that anything stopped me from doing that anyway).,

 

Overall, though, when it comes to equipment, I have much bigger gripes with the OEMs than I do with the USGA.

Nifty you cracked me up on the Daphine head covers. Actually at church they were going to do a children's puppet show. They did not know where to get some puppets. I steered them to the PGASS where they got several and I even let them use my Family Guy Stewie one too. I knew one of the managers at PGA SS and talked to him and they ended up getting some for free that people had left on trade ins etc or had returned. A couple were torn but one lady can sew anything so she fixed that one.

 

BTW Nifty I am playing all vintage tomorrow with the vintage clubs listed in the signature. Yeah that 260 Persimmon Penna driver will not intimidate me at all

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