New clubs are very expensive, but...

[NiftyNiblick]

I remember when four pro shop woods cost $160,

nine pro shop irons cost $225,

and a good, pro shop putter cost $25 or $30.

Now there are no pro shop only clubs

and the store model set costs three to four grand.

 

And if you order exotic shafts,

you can top the five grand mark with little trouble.

 

The modern technology is impressive,

yet,

if I had all the money in the world,

I'd have to own the company to get my ideal set of clubs.

They're simply not available from the current OEMs

or even the boutique clubmakers.

 

I understand what this means:  I'm extremely atypical.

We have a forum full of golf enthusiasts, and nobody--

nobody at all--

shares my contempt for the OEMs.

It's obviously just me, or would be  if I could still play.

 

Still, with the exorbitant cost of modern, new golf clubs,

I would ask a simple question.

 

Do the OEM's offer too many redundant models,

while not offering a full range of spec options

within the models?

 

In addition to head, shaft and grip otions,

shouldn't there be more spec options too?

At today's prices,

if I want a 300cc, 13º driver with a 1º open face and a 55º lie angle,

shouldn't that be easy to get?

If I want a set of irons with a 30º 5-iron and 46º 9-iron.

shouldn't that be easy to get?

If i want non-conforming box grooves,

shouldn't those be easy to get?  At least with a premium charge?

At least when I'm asked to spend four grand for a set?

Or was I forced to leave golf at the right time?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. 82]

I remember when gas was $1.15 a gallon and hamburgers at McDonalds were 50 cents.  See, we can play this game all day long.

[NiftyNiblick]

2 minutes ago, GSwag said:

I remember when gas was $1.15 a gallon and hamburgers at McDonalds were 50 cents.  See, we can play this game all day long.

That's not the game. Not even close to the game, GSwag.

If it were, I remember when gas was 28 cents a gallon and McDonald's burgers were 15 cents.

I actually paid both those prices.

 

The question was whether the OEMs should offer more options with the prices that they charge.

[cnosil]

You need to factor the cost of materials and labor into you discussion. What would the cost of the clubs you mentioned be in today’s dollars?

I think OEMs offer lots of options and in the case of putters I need to make some sacrifices, but used, or do custom to get what I need.

You have the ability to get everything you want. Length, lie, and loft are all able to be changed. People modify the off the standard co figuration if clubs all the time. It would be i
Possible for an OEM to be able to custom build a set for every person that wanted one.

[NiftyNiblick]

11 minutes ago, cnosil said:

You have the ability to get everything you want. Length, lie, and loft are all able to be changed.

You make good points, cnosil, but the above is not true with metalwoods--only with old fashioned wood.

You can't change the loft of irons with changing the bounce angles.

 

You can make the length and lie of irons match the lofts to your liking,

but than you're still stuck with stampings you don't like.

As for other options,  Ari from National Custom Works has already told me

that that particular  custom company would not be able to fill my custom order were I to make one.

 

See, even the custom shops can't accommodate certain orders.

You could have irons and wedges altered by folks like the Iron Factory, and now your new set is going to cost eight or ten grand.

 

It's just an intellectual exercise to discover just how alone I am in these opinions.

Obviously, it's very alone.

If I were still able to play,

it would obviously have to be with vintage equipment.

I couldn't break 100 with the modern stuff.

[THEZIPR23]

I believe that if you were to be playing Nifty, you could get the exact set you wanted. The customization would probably be through a 3rd party so the expense may be high but you could do it.

OEM's make/market to the biggest portion of the pie that their clubs fit. It is the way of the world, the bottomline is the most important thing. But on that same vein OEM's have definitely changed their options. You are now able to order almost anything directly through a OEM with custom specs and options. This has been a progression for the better and while they still sell to the majority, there has been progress made. 

[null]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Inflation

[NiftyNiblick]

Perhaps so, Zip.

I see your point.

If I were actually in position to see it through,

I'd be inquiring much more vigorously that I would now.

Maybe I'd find something if I were willing to go the "cost is no object" route..

 

[NiftyNiblick]

9 minutes ago, jlukes said:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Inflation

Not just an inflation issue, jlukes.

OEM options once available in the pre high-tech era

are no longer available from OEMs at any price now.

I concede that this is hard to imagine if you weren't around back then.

Lots of people who were around don't really remember because they never availed themselves of these services.

 

I shouldn't have even mentioned the old prices.

Why would today's players even care?

 

[null]

I understand your point, but you are ignoring the fact that $1 in 1960 had the same "purchasing power" or "buying power" as $8.11 in 2016.

 

It's not necessary for you me to have been alive in the 60s or 70s to understand inflation, changing labor rates, and other market dynamics that at drastically different today than they were 40 years ago

[chisag]

"In addition to head, shaft and grip otions, 

shouldn't there be more spec options too?

At today's prices,

if I want a 300cc, 13º driver with a 1º open face and a 55º lie angle,

shouldn't that be easy to get?

If I want a set of irons with a 30º 5-iron and 46º 9-iron.

shouldn't that be easy to get?

If i want non-conforming box grooves,

shouldn't those be easy to get?  At least with a premium charge?"

... None of those specs were ever easy to get or even available from OEMs. I remember when metal woods first came out and I went from store to store to try and find a driver that looked open at address. And lofts were all over the place, especially after Ely tricked his customers into using a 10.5* driver head with a Stiff shaft that was really 14.5* or higher with a Regular shaft stamped Stiff.  Back in the early 90's when I was on staff with Titleist my irons arrived with my 7 and 8 only 1* apart in loft. I was an ambassador for the brand and playing those irons would have been problematic without adjustments. So if they were that far off for someone on staff, what were they like for the average consumer? That was when I bought a loft/lie machine and started doing my own work.

... And as jlukes has pointed out, price has nothing to do with it. 

[cnosil]

It's just an intellectual exercise to discover just how alone I am in these opinions.

I guess it depends on where you focus lies. In reading yours posts you have defined a set of club specs that you want to find. Essentially you want something one off since you started getting into stamping. One off is almost

Impossible to get or would be extremely cost prohibitive for a company due to the tooling.

 

I honestly have no real care for what loft, lie, length I play. I simply care about results. Take a set and start adjusting to make the clubs perform. The adjustable woods do a pretty good job of slowing you to effectively adjust lie, loft,and face angle. I know you have limitations that won’t let you play golf anymore, but I think you would be able to find a set of more modern clubs that give you the results you want.

 

Honestly I am surprised you don’t have more to say about the ball since back in the days of balata balls you could actually work tee ball to get the shot types you are seeking with your custom clubs.

 

[revkev]

Nifty - I think we are more moderate than you are in regards to OEMs. Just like the OEMs of our youth they exist to make money.

For the right amount of money and with the right club builder at hand I’m confident that you could get whatever you wanted with quality components and a top shelf build.

On a somewhat related note I had an interesting chat with my fitter yesterday as he was refilling my wedges.

He is not a big fan of PXG. His opinion is that if someone is interested in playing their best golf they could spend 1,300 on irons from a major OEM that are built better than PXGs, have comparable components and then invest the savings in lessons. He said that he’s had to rebuild four sets of PXGs for customers this summer.

Interesting


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[tony@CIC]

1 hour ago, NiftyNiblick said:

I remember when four pro shop woods cost $160,

nine pro shop irons cost $225,

and a good, pro shop putter cost $25 or $30.

Now there are no pro shop only clubs

and the store model set costs three to four grand.

 

And if you order exotic shafts,

you can top the five grand mark with little trouble.

 

The modern technology is impressive,

yet,

if I had all the money in the world,

I'd have to own the company to get my ideal set of clubs.

They're simply not available from the current OEMs

or even the boutique clubmakers.

 

I understand what this means:  I'm extremely atypical.

We have a forum full of golf enthusiasts, and nobody--

nobody at all--

shares my contempt for the OEMs.

It's obviously just me, or would be  if I could still play.

 

Still, with the exorbitant cost of modern, new golf clubs,

I would ask a simple question.

 

Do the OEM's offer too many redundant models,

while not offering a full range of spec options

within the models?

 

In addition to head, shaft and grip otions,

shouldn't there be more spec options too?

At today's prices,

if I want a 300cc, 13º driver with a 1º open face and a 55º lie angle,

shouldn't that be easy to get?

If I want a set of irons with a 30º 5-iron and 46º 9-iron.

shouldn't that be easy to get?

If i want non-conforming box grooves,

shouldn't those be easy to get?  At least with a premium charge?

At least when I'm asked to spend four grand for a set?

Or was I forced to leave golf at the right time?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3-4 grand for a store model set??

I paid substantially less than that AT my Pro shop for custom irons. 

 

[NiftyNiblick]

4 minutes ago, chisag said:

... And as jlukes has pointed out, price has nothing to do with it. 

jlukes brought up inflation.

I was the one who pointed out that things are not available at any price.

Let's do a recap.

 

When you ordered wooden woods from your pro,

you  could absolutely get the exact lofts, face angles, and lie angles that your then static fitting warranted.

You could get them from MacGregor and Spalding for sure, and I assume that if they did it, the other major builders

would have to do it too.   Metal ended that.   Specialist forger Zeider offered it for a while.

 

Irons already had the loft / number correlations that were comfortable for me, but one or two degrees flat was no problem.

If I did want custom stamping, Kenneth Smith could do that with no problem.

But Spalding also had that available with their Top Flite Custom option.

 

Being there mattered because you couldn't know this if you weren't.

 

My main point, however, was to see if i was totally alone in my preferences.

We've determined that I probably am.

That's all.

No need for a major argument!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheWahoo]

The value of any commodity not related to basic needs is based on what one is willing to pay and another is willing to accept.   For multiple reasons, I guess, golfers, especially those labelled "hos" are willing to pay and the OEMs most assuredly are willing to accept.  If one does not like the prices, then do not be willing to pay it.   Sooner of later the prices will come down with each newer version and if enough of the consumer market is not willing to pay, the prices will come down even sooner.

OK, OK , I would guess there are some here that consider that new shiny club a basic need.

[NiftyNiblick]

8 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

3-4 grand for a store model set??

I paid substantially less than that AT my Pro shop for custom irons. 

 

Sure.  I was just saying how easy it is to spend 3-4 grand.

Every time I run up a set on TGW out of curiosity,  it's over three grand.

They only offer the super exotic shafts in stiff and extra stiff , and I'm an R or A guy,

but if I went for them, four grand is a snap.

[null]

https://mygolfspy.com/the-increasing-costs-of-drivers/

Quote

 

 Talge provides several reasons why most OEMs are raising prices. Reasons behind the general upward trend at Titleist include:

• Performance seeking each and every cycle (new material research and implementation)
• Using the highest performance partners and suppliers (real deal shafts and grips)
• A different approach to club building and assembly. All Titleist clubs sold in the United States are assembled in Oceanside, CA
• Cost of labor increases over the years
• Time value of money (inflation)

Sound enough reasoning, but have prices really increased that much?

Callaway is quick to point out that the original Great Big Bertha driver launched in 1996 with a retail price of $500. In 2017, the Epic was released for the same price. So in looking at the bigger picture, it’s difficult to definitively say that prices have even kept up with inflation. For example, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, prices in 2017 are 56% higher than prices in 1996 when Callaway released the Great Big Bertha. That would suggest that $500 in the year 1996 is equivalent in purchasing power to $780.07 in 2017.

......

“OEMs had a desire to price at $300 to satisfy strategic accounts,” said Rigg, “but insights showed that, out of the gate, it’s easier to take money from early adopters/core golfers who pay-up for new tech. Then, discount/cascade later and maintain margin.”

 

 

 

 

[NiftyNiblick]

We're getting these cost posts

because I clearly titled the thread badly.

I should have gone with the Rolling Stones.

You Can't Always Get What You Want.

[null]

So this wasn't about costs? It was a another post about not being able to order your "Nifty Custom Specs"?

[NiftyNiblick]

Just now, jlukes said:

So this wasn't about costs? It was a another post about not being able to order your "Nifty Custom Specs"?

It's what I do.

 

[TheWahoo]

11 minutes ago, NiftyNiblick said:

We're getting these cost posts

because I clearly titled the thread badly.

I should have gone with the Rolling Stones.

You Can't Always Get What You Want.

Your Stones quote is on point.   Permit me to finish it  "but if you try real hard, you can get what you need".    So regarding golf equipment are we willing to pay for what we want,  not necessarily what we need. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

Expensive varies by each person. The clubs on the American market are cheap when compared to the Asian market.

to some pxg maybe expensive and to others not so much because they want them and price doesn’t matter.  Scotty Cameron tour putter may be expensive to some when they feel for a lot less they can get an otr putter.

technology, materials, labor, r&d, marketing all play a factor into the cost.

As for getting what you want you could find some one who does one offs and pay the price for the custom work.  Whether we like how oems do thinks their goal is to make money and the easiest way is to build and market to the majority of golfers. They find a head size, shape, construction that works for most and pair it with a shaft that will fit most golfers.  They offer customization to a point to fit those who want/need to fine tune the stock setup

 

[Har in the Hat]

2 hours ago, NiftyNiblick said:

I remember when four pro shop woods cost $160,

nine pro shop irons cost $225,

and a good, pro shop putter cost $25 or $30.

Now there are no pro shop only clubs

and the store model set costs three to four grand.

 

And if you order exotic shafts,

you can top the five grand mark with little trouble.

 

The modern technology is impressive,

yet,

if I had all the money in the world,

I'd have to own the company to get my ideal set of clubs.

They're simply not available from the current OEMs

or even the boutique clubmakers.

 

I understand what this means:  I'm extremely atypical.

We have a forum full of golf enthusiasts, and nobody--

nobody at all--

shares my contempt for the OEMs.

It's obviously just me, or would be  if I could still play.

 

Still, with the exorbitant cost of modern, new golf clubs,

I would ask a simple question.

 

Do the OEM's offer too many redundant models,

while not offering a full range of spec options

within the models?

 

In addition to head, shaft and grip otions,

shouldn't there be more spec options too?

At today's prices,

if I want a 300cc, 13º driver with a 1º open face and a 55º lie angle,

shouldn't that be easy to get?

If I want a set of irons with a 30º 5-iron and 46º 9-iron.

shouldn't that be easy to get?

If i want non-conforming box grooves,

shouldn't those be easy to get?  At least with a premium charge?

At least when I'm asked to spend four grand for a set?

Or was I forced to leave golf at the right time?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I noted this in the Titleist article by T.Covey

 

Even the elite golfers who once flocked to Titleist in droves were playing other brands. It’s no secret that pay for play dominates at the professional level. He who pays the most wins the count, but what opened eyes at Titleist was the significant decline in play at events like the NCAA and US Amateur Championship. Once the leader, Titleist found itself just a couple of drivers away from dropping to 4^th in the count. The consumer market as a whole followed much the same trajectory. 

 

We are all paying for the R&D that goes into making the clubs that the tour players want to use and paying whatever it costs so that the brand recognition is there.  For example, Titleist ensures that everyones knows about how any balls are being played on the tours. 

 

Has nothing to do with us, but we pay for it by "wanting to play what the pros play".

[NiftyNiblick]

I can honestly say with all sincerity that I can't remember ever caring that much about what gear the pros play.

I loved to play, but watching pro golf was never super big for me.

I liked to try what my friends were playing until I got an idea of what was what.

Then,  at some point, I didn't care what anybody else was playing--obviously from my posts!

 

[chisag]

32 minutes ago, TheWahoo said:

The value of any commodity not related to basic needs is based on what one is willing to pay and another is willing to accept.   For multiple reasons, I guess, golfers, especially those labelled "hos" are willing to pay and the OEMs most assuredly are willing to accept.  If one does not like the prices, then do not be willing to pay it.   Sooner of later the prices will come down with each newer version and if enough of the consumer market is not willing to pay, the prices will come down even sooner.

OK, OK , I would guess there are some here that consider that new shiny club a basic need.

 

... When Srixon offered the Z Star for $39.99 I talked to them at the PGA Show and told them it was easy to review and recommend the Z Star because it performed as well or better than any ball I had played and was $5 less than the other balls selling for $45.99 or more. Most golfers were not on board yet, so positive reviews and players experience were crucial and getting someone to try a new ball when they are happy with their current ball just isn't gonna happen at the same price. But at $5 cheaper, some would be wiling to give them a shot and that is how you build word of mouth. I was a little shocked to hear they were raising the price to $45.99 and I said I thought that is a huge mistake. The Marketing Director agreed it was a mistake but said Sales had done their projections and the increased profit would out weigh the loss of customers. Typical Corporate thinking because they had some momentum and this would change that momentum. A few years later they admitted their mistake and dropped the price back down to $39.99 but they lost market share and momentum. 

[Hook DeLoft]

I think I understand what the OP is saying. But I have questions. We’re you ever able to order a driver head that was 35% smaller than standard? I hear what you’re saying about length and lie, but companies will accommodate those requests. For instance, you can request a driver head from Ping that measures at 9.25 degrees instead of the stated 9 degrees. Wouldn’t that be the same as ordering a persimmon in your preferred loft?  You can order any number of different shaft lengths. I see different iron models on the market that range from 27 degrees to 36 degrees in “7” irons. My point is that you can order a dizzying array of custom options. Last week I ordered a set of PXG 0211 irons on the phone. I was able to specify custom lengths, lies and lofts for each club separately. And the cost was only $84 per club.

It seems to me there is plenty of variety out there. And, if you are averse to chain stores, you can still order through your local club pro. 

[ballhawk]

This may or may not fit into the prime subject disscussion, but it's offered anyway. A playing partner went whole hog for a fitting and expensive clubs. Total cost was just at 5K and he was as proud as a peacock. First round out with them and he shot his normal score, which was decent enough but not earth shattering for what he paid. Now in the group behind us, which were a part of our total group, we had our resident old fogey (76+) who plays irons from the early 80's a somewhat newish 8 year old driver and 3 wood off the rack and a Ping putter circa 1967. Well when settling up after the round, Mr 76 won 3 skins, 2 greenies and tied for lowest putts. Mr peacock won zip, but was still proud of his look at me set and bag. Bottom line is as the old saying goes, "it's the indian not the arrow"

[fixyurdivot]

On 10/4/2018 at 9:29 AM, cnosil said:

You need to factor the cost of materials and labor into you discussion. What would the cost of the clubs you mentioned be in today’s dollars?

I think OEMs offer lots of options and in the case of putters I need to make some sacrifices, but used, or do custom to get what I need.

You have the ability to get everything you want. Length, lie, and loft are all able to be changed. People modify the off the standard co figuration if clubs all the time. It would be i
Possible for an OEM to be able to custom build a set for every person that wanted one.

I once had to do this calculation manually.  There is considerably more technology in modern equipment that are benefitting us as players and, simply looking at the cost increase alone, we're basically getting that for free.  So @NiftyNiblickI would contend that you got out of the sport too soon, need to schedule yourself a full bag fitting, and put a $2000 worth of clubs into a brand new golf bag .

 

[Firebird]

Was that about the same time the a guy called Noah built a big boat.