Why have so many left this great game?

[TR1PTIK]

I'd have to agree with GB13's point. I don't think golf will become "curling", but you can look at plenty of other sports that have boomed and then decreased in popularity over the years. Using skateboarding and BMX as examples (since that's my background), both grew in popularity during the 60's and 70's, but waned in the 80's and 90's only to grow again in the early 2000's and now both sports have kind of normalized. I've seen plenty of baseball fields, and basketball and tennis courts overtaken by weeds but haven't heard a lot of discussion about the death of those sports. I do think some of it is also attributable to technology and how people spend their time now - they just aren't outside as much. Whatever you want to point the finger at though, golf isn't going anywhere. It's just changing. I know I don't plan on leaving anytime soon (currently 31) and I have plenty of friends in my age bracket that play as well. We all love the game and the challenges it offers.

[tony@CIC]

35 minutes ago, GB13 said:

I don't think golf is dying. I think it is becoming a more niche sport and will thrive in its own little spot. It just needs to downsize and it will be healthy again. It may not look how it does now but it will come back. Maybe there will be a course every 4 towns instead of one in every town, but that one course will thrive instead of having 4 failing courses. There will always be avid golfers but the "recreational" crowd might stop playing as much. Golf will end up being like curling. A niche sport that is still popular to those who care about it but not a popular, mainstream sport  

So instead of golf dying, I think it is downsizing but is going to thrive as a niche sport. 

Your comments are spot on. Like anything else 'things' go through cycles - highs and lows before they settle out. Along the way people also assume that courses dying is representative of the sport dying and not thinking that these are businesses. Some businesses make good decisions and are successful and some don't and close down.  We see quite a few retirees (myself included) taking up the game - so I'm a bit more optimistic. 

[perseveringgolfer]

2 hours ago, Middler said:

Is it players leaving the game, or younger/middle aged players not taking up golf as they once did? I believe it's more the latter.

Most seniors I know of have stayed with the game until they literally just can't play/enjoy golf anymore. But the generations that are following Boomers just haven't taken up golf like they used to, aside from the Tiger blip. Unless there's another Tiger phenomena, the decline will probably continue.

One DATA point: Our local muni course publishes numbers. At that course there were:

• over 43,000 rounds played in 1999,
• 25,933 in 2007, and
• 18,770 in 2017 (and revenue is down 16% since 2007)

Exact same decline in sailing, my other dying pastime (sigh). The median age of sailors used to be mid 30's a generation or two back, but it's mid 50's and climbing now. The local yacht club, where I am no longer a member, is more and more 'elderly' dock bunnies who rarely if ever take their boats out (if they even still own one). And similar to golf, junior programs and professional sailors are still healthy, but otherwise adult sailors are rapidly declining. " 95% of youth sailors quit sailing by age 22."

Thats an interesting perspective on it, I hadn't thought of it that way and could be nearer the reason.

[perseveringgolfer]

1 hour ago, GB13 said:

Golf will end up being like curling.

I can hardly type the word before falling into a catatonic sleep......look, I'll try...

CURL...zzzzzzzzz

[Wedgie]

I spent my morning driving to Philly and listening to PGA Radio. They had the CEO of Club Champion on Hank Haney’s show. He said there are 24,000,000 golfers in the USA. They consider 8,000,000 of those golfers as avid and define avid as 10-20 rounds per year or more. Avid golfers represent 2.5% of the US population. That being said Club Champion will have 62 locations nationwide by spring time. That is triple the amount they had just 3 years ago. Maybe there are just too many golf courses. I think it was General Motors that closed dealerships a few years ago because there were just too many to be profitable. Could be the same here and the reason people perceive a decline in the game.


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[fixyurdivot]

2 hours ago, GB13 said:

Maybe there will be a course every 4 towns instead of one in every town

I didn't know you played here in Montana.   

 

1 hour ago, TR1PTIK said:

Whatever you want to point the finger at though, golf isn't going anywhere. It's just changing.

Good point.  Seems the younger generation likes everything "extreme" (i.e. skiing of the sides of mountains).  I'd never heard of "Speed-golf" until the other day when one of us brought up the desire to play a format whereby your time to complete a round was calculated into your stroke score.  Anyone on the forum involved with this new format?  They're having the 2018  Season Championship today and tomorrow at Turning Stone Resort, Verona, NY.  

http://www.usaspeedgolf.com/

http://www.usaspeedgolf.com/#gallery_4-5

We need some local MGS's to do a little intel for us.  

[fixyurdivot]

53 minutes ago, perseveringgolfer said:

I can hardly type the word before falling into a catatonic sleep......look, I'll try...

CURL...zzzzzzzzz

Your post made me think about all the Canadians in our Park in Yuma that have either Curling or Hockey broadcasts on their patio TV's.  I have to admit that curling is starting to grow on me a bit.  There is some serious strategy going on and that ice roughening and polishing drill is fascinating.

[revkev]

Is it players leaving the game, or younger/middle aged players not taking up golf as they once did? I believe it's more the latter.
Most seniors I know of have stayed with the game until they literally just can't play/enjoy golf anymore. But the generations that are following Boomers just haven't taken up golf like they used to, aside from the Tiger blip. Unless there's another Tiger phenomena, the decline will probably continue.
One DATA point: Our local muni course publishes numbers. At that course there were:

• over 43,000 rounds played in 1999,
• 25,933 in 2007, and
• 18,770 in 2017 (and revenue is down 16% since 2007)

Exact same decline in sailing, my other dying pastime (sigh). The median age of sailors used to be mid 30's a generation or two back, but it's mid 50's and climbing now. The local yacht club, where I am no longer a member, is more and more 'elderly' dock bunnies who rarely if ever take their boats out (if they even still own one). And similar to golf, junior programs and professional sailors are still healthy, but otherwise adult sailors are rapidly declining. " 95% of youth sailors quit sailing by age 22."
IMO golf and sailing will become more like polo (horses) WRT participation. Expensive sports activities for the conspicuous consumption crowd who want "exclusivity." For them, affordability isn't a positive feature. Again, we're already seeing that with sailing and golf. The top tier yacht clubs and country clubs are absolutely thriving, with waiting lists - while the other 90% of clubs are hanging on for dear life or have already gone bankrupt.

There have to be double the courses today from 20 years ago though. I’d really need hard data.

There were no tee times at the courses I played at 50-30 years ago. Strictly first come, first serve put your ball in the rack enterprises, very few ranges either - you played cards or putting games with your friends while you waited.

Golf was decidedly kid and women unfriendly - most courses didn’t allow them before noon on the weekend and many courses did not have multiple sets of tees - in fact few that I played did 50 years ago.


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[NiftyNiblick]

Does it really matter if golf downsizes radically?

There will always be enough courses to accommodate the number of people who want to play.

I don't think many of us care about the purse sizes in pro golf.  Not our problem.

 

Equipment, I feel, will get better in many ways.

Instead of making stuff and trying to sell it to us,  club makers will make what we ask for when we order it.

The people who know what they want will be able to get it, while others will rely on the advice of fitters.

That will make equipment even more expensive as small shops will replace the big factories,

but for the thrift minded, we've got enough used clubs sitting around to equip millions of casual players for generations.

 

Lots of golf courses will become other things, but the present number can support those losses. 

Merion and Brookline and Pine Valley and Augusta and Cypress Point and Shinnecock Hills aren't going anywhere..

The scruffy proletarian tracks will exist wherever they're needed. They're safe, too.

The 'tweener courses will be decimated because they were built for projected demographics  that will not materialize.

 

 

 

 

[Mr. 82]

2 hours ago, perseveringgolfer said:

I can hardly type the word before falling into a catatonic sleep......look, I'll try...

CURL...zzzzzzzzz

You apparently didn't watch curling in the Olympics...

[GolfSpy_APH]

Funny how curling has that reputation. Curling and golf are so intertwined and at least here in Canada a lot of curlers golf with their offseasons lining up so well. Personally I've curled for 23 years now and much like other sports it's very much about the social aspect and the drinks afterwards. I get how most find it boring to watch, however to play especially for your first time I can guarantee you'll be sore as all get out the next day!
Oddly enough it is growing as a sport by adapting to newer trends and making the game not only more accessible to New comers including changing the form the game is played in. Maybe it's something golf can take a page out of?

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[fixyurdivot]

And for those that think a set of PXG irons are pricey.

http://www.canadacurlingstone.on.ca/catalogue.php?c=2

[perseveringgolfer]

3 hours ago, GSwag said:

You apparently didn't watch curling in the Olympics...

oh I did, kept me interested for a few minutes 

[Charli]

Kids 

[Har in the Hat]

Count me in as one who has almost or will be leaving the game for good.The last 5 years my golf has diminished down to nothing.Ive went from an extreme avid 6 day a week golfer for 25 plus years.And now I played only 3 rounds this year and last was late April.My excuse is I just don’t want to be out there anymore.Still go to the driving range a few times a month but that is the extent of it.My love for the game in general will always be with me.The one thing that hurts was buddies calling me up every week for a round on the weekend.They all stopped calling a few years ago since I kept on telling them no.I miss the banter and good times, but don’t miss being on the course as much.At the pace I’m going now, in a few years I won’t even have one round a season.It isn’t money,time or my body preventing me from playing at all

out of curiosity and please don't take this the wrong way. .. why are you interested in this forum and it's contents if you're not interested in playing anymore? this has me curious. Again, I'm not trying to be ficeous. your post piqued my interest in what is keeping you interested in this "golfing" forum if you no longer play.

thanks

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[Har in the Hat]

I love golf and am addicted to it.
I wish I could golf everyday.

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[Reesedw]

I don't think Golf is on the decline. I just think it is readjusting, and what i mean is,  Golf took off in the late 90's through the early 2000's.. with that came a bunch of people who thought they were going to ride the Golf Boom to Billionaire status, they soon realized that there was money to be made across all facets of the golf industry, but it was going to take time and money to do it. Fast forward, the courses that are closing are doing so because they were either unable to adapt or unwilling to, and have been passed over. IMO.. So now the courses that are staying around  are fitting a Niche ( whatever that niche might be ).. economical, High end, gimmicky, fun, challenging, beautiful, whatever there is a reason they are still around. and the ones that have changed just might be what was needed. I have seen a couple that were sold off for development and other than not being another course, not really a big loss...  

As far as the decline in participation i think it follows the same rhythm, a lot of people jumped on the "GOLF" bandwagon because they needed to part of something that was exploding and afraid to be left out, and realized later that Golf was not for them. Now that the golf industry has stabilized to a more normal state i think it will come out that it is not in decline, but a more natural state of growth and very strong.. 

I hope my ramblings make sense.. 

[revkev]

Lots of good replies here - Nifty and Reesedw are effectively saying what I’m saying.

But I’d truly like to see the data. I will try to do some searching tomorrow when I’m off


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[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, revkev said:

Lots of good replies here - Nifty and Reesedw are effectively saying what I’m saying.

But I’d truly like to see the data. I will try to do some searching tomorrow when I’m off


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This was the organization I had stumbled on a few weeks ago and that I was unable to access their research.  Not sure how unbiased they may be considering their primary customers are those selling all things golf. Perhaps one of our fellow MGS's is a member or knows someone who is?

http://www.ngf.org/

[Mr. 82]

1 hour ago, revkev said:

Lots of good replies here - Nifty and Reesedw are effectively saying what I’m saying.

But I’d truly like to see the data. I will try to do some searching tomorrow when I’m off


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As I've shown in several previous posts in this thread, a simple google search should provide you with an endless supply of source material for you to run down the rabbit hole with.

[Big money]

10 hours ago, Har in the Hat said:

out of curiosity and please don't take this the wrong way. .. why are you interested in this forum and it's contents if you're not interested in playing anymore? this has me curious. Again, I'm not trying to be ficeous. your post piqued my interest in what is keeping you interested in this "golfing" forum if you no longer play.

thanks

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I enjoy reading the golfing banter.

[NiftyNiblick]

2 hours ago, Big money said:

I enjoy reading the golfing banter.

People do lose interest in things over time.

I left golf because playing was too physically painful to my back,

and the nerve damage in my left arm and hand reduced my ability to grip the club..

Otherwise, I might have played another ten years.

 

I enjoy posting here because I represent antiquated opinions that are often unique on the forum, and i enjoy the response of

younger players in reaction to them.  More than that, it's generally a real nice group, here.

 

Have you ever mentioned here the actually reasons that golf lost its appeal to you?

 

[Big money]

5 hours ago, NiftyNiblick said:

 

[tony@CIC]

It would be interesting to take that graph back another 15 years and then overlay numbers on the economy.


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[revkev]

I guess I will try again - IMO golf had an artificial surge in the late 90’s to early 2,000’s. We agree that there was a surge at that point and that the number of golfers and courses have dropped in the last 15 years.

However this data may prove my point or it may not because it starts at the predictable down turn from that artificial surge. It’s incomplete, it’s cherry picked. Golf has exactly step as a sport for 400 years. 15 years are hardly and adequate sample size. I would say the modern game has excited since the end of WW II or 80 years plus. 15 years still isn’t really that much.

My assertion is that if we measure the state of golf today verses 40 years ago, a true generation, we will find that it is healthier today. More players, more courses, more affordable.

This is probably the 4th time I’ve made that point. I’ve also stated that when I have time tomorrow I will do some research. I have this day job that has made it impossible for me to do that over the time since this thread was started.

I hope that helps - sorry that I came across as out of touch - perhaps you may wish to go back and read my posts.



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[Kenny B]

I think there will always be peaks and valleys in the golf industry.  Some of it is weather-related, and Yes, it peaked during the Tiger era, then declined shortly after when he stopped winning.  However, there are still a lot of golfers out there.  I tend to agree with Rev about golf now vs golf 40 years ago.  I don't go back that far since I only took up game in 1992.  However, I will say that the decline is most noticeable in areas that were saturated with golf courses.  

I don't see a decline here in the Pacific Northwest, at least not on my side of the Cascade Mountains.  The last golf course built in my community was built 22 years ago.  There are more people playing on our courses now than 22 years ago, and in those 22 years our population has grown by 100K people.  To get a decent tee time at my muni course on a weekend I have to reserve a time a week in advance.  If there is a tournament, I have to find a different course to play, or play late in the day.  All courses both public and private are doing quite well, and we could use another course but no one wants to make that investment.

[revkev]

Thank you for this data Middler as it gets us back 30 years - I’m looking at number of courses data in a report from the R and A that goes back to the 60’s.

Your data and theirs are proving my point. Their conclusion and mine are similar. Yours differs, although I think there’s some validity to yours.

Looking at this chart there was an upward arc of golfers from the mid 80’s to early 90’s (if we had earlier data it would be from the mid 70’s to early 90’s based on number of courses being built). The number leveled off at around 24 million.

Then the boom hit - Tiger boom plus economic boom. Time has proven it to be artificial. People tried golf because it was cool but many left. OEMs and course developers mid read the situation and saturated the market with equipment and courses.

Since 2006 the game has returned to its pre Tiger boom norm of 24 to 25 million golfers. According to the R and A’s study while the number of courses have declined from peak there are significantly more now in the US than in ‘95 and 74 percent are public access as opposed to 65 percent then. I’m still looking for the data to back their narrative.

While my statement about double the courses 20 years ago was meant to say 40 which would be true - I was writing in haste - it’s entirely possible that there are double the public golf opportunities in your area today as there were 25 to 30 years ago.

In regards to millennials and golf that’s a different topic although I suspect there have been many such holes in the sport. Throughout generations people take the game up at an early age and many drop out for a variety of reasons only to return or actually start playing once kids are out of the house and their is more leisure time.

Junior golf programs have been robust in 3 of the 4 places that I’ve lived as an adult the Northeast being the exception but it’s also been a long time since I lived there, that may have changed.

Golf has declined since the artificial Tiger boom, its returned to its very healthy norm of the mid 90’s. Baring another significant economic down turn or World War the biggest threat to it would be real estate developers buying courses for housing developments.

I get why those who took up the game in the late 90’s, early 2000’s are freaking out. I’m trying to get you to take a step back, a deep breath and realize that it’s fine right now and the factors that threaten are beyond our control.


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[Mr. 82]

11 hours ago, revkev said:

 

 

I guess I will try again - IMO golf had an artificial surge in the late 90’s to early 2,000’s. We agree that there was a surge at that point and that the number of golfers and courses have dropped in the last 15 years.

However this data may prove my point or it may not because it starts at the predictable down turn from that artificial surge. It’s incomplete, it’s cherry picked. Golf has exactly step as a sport for 400 years. 15 years are hardly and adequate sample size. I would say the modern game has excited since the end of WW II or 80 years plus. 15 years still isn’t really that much.

My assertion is that if we measure the state of golf today verses 40 years ago, a true generation, we will find that it is healthier today. More players, more courses, more affordable.

This is probably the 4th time I’ve made that point. I’ve also stated that when I have time tomorrow I will do some research. I have this day job that has made it impossible for me to do that over the time since this thread was started.

I hope that helps - sorry that I came across as out of touch - perhaps you may wish to go back and read my posts.



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Unbelievable.  

I probably shouldn't respond to this, but I'm always a sucker for foot in mouth disease so here goes.

This rant reminds me of my 70+ year old boss.  He's in charge, but he farms out all the work to everyone else, and the only reason you'd need to talk to him was to get permission....wait....now that I think about it, there is no reason to talk to him.

An example for you.  One of our customers emailed me directly yesterday, asking for our holiday schedule.  I wasn't 100% sure of the schedule, so I emailed my boss, asking him if he knew what it was.  What does he do?  He emails the CIO of the company, who I guess finally responded to him.  Once he got that information, rather than responding to our customer and answering the question, like I asked him to, he tells me the dates, and just leaves it at that.  Then this morning he emails me and two of the girls I work with and asks them to respond to this customer with the holiday schedule.  Sadly, once I got the dates from him yesterday I immediately responded to that customer with the information, and CC'd him on that email, to which he actually responded with some non-response rah rah message that said absolutely nothing.

My point being that my boss is a waste of oxygen and actually does nothing, and accomplishes nothing.  A retired Rear Admiral from the Navy who has spent the past 50 years in charge and telling everyone else what to do, but never actually doing anything himself.

Some people actually do real work.  Then there are others who think they are important, and delegate everything to the people that actually do the work, and do nothing themselves.  And then they go around telling everyone how busy they are and don't have time for anything.

Communicating with our customer took all of less than a minute out of my day.  I responded almost immediately to them initially, and then once I got the information.  It's not rocket science, and it's a simple thing.  But some people like to involve 3 or 4 other people, and inflate a simple project to make it as complicated as putting a man on the moon.

[Mr. 82]

My boss doesn't wear suspenders, but in this clip he does.

[revkev]

@middler as I wrote - you may be right. I don’t think we dispute the data, the question is clearly interpretation.

However the R and A and I see it the same way so my conclusion isn’t ridiculous or far fetched. I also reached my conclusion without reading their opinion paper first.

The increase in junior golf does create the possibility of more adult golfers in the future. String first tee programs also create the possibility of a draw from lower income groups than prior generations. Millennials have more free time they may well turn to golf as boomers have in their senior years.

Finally there is the example of tennis which followed a similar arc and stabilized after its initial decline.

We shall see - well some of us will - others will time out.

I appreciate the discussion - good luck with the sailing - that’s always looked like a wonderful way to spend a day to me.


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