Pull the Swing or push it

[Nmrfgomes]

I was playing with my son and he pointed out something in my swing, he said i finish too close to my body instead of releasing my left arm in the air, and that must be because i´m swinging with a right and push instead of a left and pull.

I´ve never thought of it in those terms, i´m right handed and he is right on how i swing, mentally that´s how i see myself swinging, is he right?

[NM01]

Golf swing is a pull. Right handed people playing right handed the d to battle the push vice pull

[tommc23]

You'll see they noticed this helped them increase their speeds in the speed stick review. I do agree that I play better when I pull with my left instead of trying to push with my right.

[GB13]

I believe that it is a combo of both. I really don't use my arms to push or pull. For me, it is all a body rotation with the arms just following. I don't know if this is right or not...

[Big money]

I feel both and the feel changes daily.It can be a push for a few holes.Than it will change to a pull feel 

The main thing my instructor told me to worry about is make sure left knee and hip clears first. Than I can pull or push thru. Just what I’m being taught 

[cnosil]

I think each person will be different and will need to do what helps them sequence the swing correctly. For me it is more pull than push. I focus on the left side

[fixyurdivot]

I'm in the pull group - always consciously trying not to allow my right side from dominating.

[bens197]

In simplest terms, the left side controls the swing for a righty golfer.

This only works if the arms are connected with the body and rotate at the same speed as the torso; all while releasing behind the lower body.

Golf is easy right?

Depending on your level of talent and personal goals relative to the amount you practice, sometimes over thinking the swing can actually be counter productive.


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[DaveP043]

56 minutes ago, bens197 said:

In simplest terms, the left side controls the swing for a righty golfer.

This only works if the arms are connected with the body and rotate at the same speed as the torso; all while releasing behind the lower body.

I'm not sure I agree with this.  For the best swings, body rotation is the initial forward action, with arms and club following.  As you approach impact, the hips slow down their rotation, and come to a near stop, then the shoulders, while the arms speed up and eventually out-race the shoulders.  The "feel" of either pushing or pulling is simply that, a feel, and different feels work for different people.  In my mind, one reason that a golfer will finish "close to the body" is that his shoulders haven't turned adequately.  As the arms pass impact, the right arm controls the "radius" of the swing, so the left arm has to fold.  If the shoulders rotate further towards the target, both arms can extend more fully.

[bens197]

I'm not sure I agree with this.  For the best swings, body rotation is the initial forward action, with arms and club following.  As you approach impact, the hips slow down their rotation, and come to a near stop, then the shoulders, while the arms speed up and eventually out-race the shoulders.  The "feel" of either pushing or pulling is simply that, a feel, and different feels work for different people.  In my mind, one reason that a golfer will finish "close to the body" is that his shoulders haven't turned adequately.  As the arms pass impact, the right arm controls the "radius" of the swing, so the left arm has to fold.  If the shoulders rotate further towards the target, both arms can extend more fully.

We can disagree but what you described is a more detailed account of what I had written.

The arms connected with the torso is essential in motion prior to impact. Once the club makes contact the arms extend and release.

We’re saying the same thing different ways and it sounds like a pretty good golf swing


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[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, bens197 said:

We can disagree but what you described is a more detailed account of what I had written.

The arms connected with the torso is essential in motion prior to impact. Once the club makes contact the arms extend and release.

We’re saying the same thing different ways and it sounds like a pretty good golf swing

 

I agree, we're talking similar things with slightly different terminology.  The thing that I think is important has been said before, there are elements of both push and pull in every good golf swing.  The left side definitely controls the radius of the swing before and at impact, yet the right arm extending into impact  provides a big part of the speed.  I think maybe my biggest disagreement is with the OP's son.  He may have noticed that the OPs swing finished close to his body, but I'm doubtful that he diagnosed the basic cause of that finish.  I'm certainly not one to make a diagnosis, my discussion of the turning rates was mostly a guess of what might be causing the OPs finish.  Very very few of us "amateur swing mechanics" have the skills to really diagnose the basic cause behind a fairly obvious "swing defect." 

[bens197]

I agree, we're talking similar things with slightly different terminology.  The thing that I think is important has been said before, there are elements of both push and pull in every good golf swing.  The left side definitely controls the radius of the swing before and at impact, yet the right arm extending into impact  provides a big part of the speed.  I think maybe my biggest disagreement is with the OP's son.  He may have noticed that the OPs swing finished close to his body, but I'm doubtful that he diagnosed the basic cause of that finish.  I'm certainly not one to make a diagnosis, my discussion of the turning rates was mostly a guess of what might be causing the OPs finish.  Very very few of us "amateur swing mechanics" have the skills to really diagnose the basic cause behind a fairly obvious "swing defect." 

Absolutely. And that’s without considering grip, posture, path, plane and most important of all...what kind of shoes he is wearing


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[Nmrfgomes]

More than a fix for my fault, i was looking for an insight of how YOU feel your own golf swing.

As for the fault it self, my teacher told me to slow down my swing and work on my balance and don´t try to accelerate so much until i learned a good weight shifting movement.

[Nmrfgomes]

2 minutes ago, bens197 said:

 

 

Absolutely. And that’s without considering grip, posture, path, plane and most important of all...what kind of shoes he is wearing


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[bens197]

More than a fix for my fault, i was looking for an insight of how YOU feel your own golf swing.
As for the fault it self, my teacher told me to slow down my swing and work on my balance and don´t try to accelerate so much until i learned a good weight shifting movement.

For me, I have to keep it simple. I need to just remember to go through my routine but play my easy cut. The single mental thought is that it’s feeling the butt end return through the ball. My swing is a dumpster when I decelerate.






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[DaveP043]

51 minutes ago, Nmrfgomes said:

More than a fix for my fault, i was looking for an insight of how YOU feel your own golf swing.

As for the fault it self, my teacher told me to slow down my swing and work on my balance and don´t try to accelerate so much until i learned a good weight shifting movement.

My swing feel involves primarily a lower-body movement as a driving force.  My first forward move is a lateral shift of my hips to the forward side, followed by rotation of my hips in that same direction.  Because my pelvis should be tilted forward, good rotation requires that I extend the left knee, allowing (forcing) my left hip to move around and away from the ball, and vertically upward.  In years past, I had too much forward slide, which limited the rotation part, so I consciously work on proper rotation when I practice, and in my rehearsal swing.  I really don't think of arms or hands, so the push or pull feel doesn't really effect me.  However, when I do turn my lower body properly through the ball, I find that my arms extend pretty naturally toward the target.  Perhaps that's what your instructor is hoping (even expecting?) will happen as a consequence of your improved weight shift.

[THEZIPR23]

I have tried the push feel and I have tried the pull feel. What works best for me is neither. What I mean by that is that the feel of both arms rotating at the same time in conjunction with torso rotation works the best. Feeling the rotation has always had the best results for me. It also helps my brain think about only one thing and to me it is much easier to feel the rotation as one then push vs pull. 

[bluesmandan76]

At the top of the swing, both hands pull. Halfway down there’s a midswing change: you should continue pulling with the left but push with the right. Once the grip passes the right hip or ribcage in the downswing (from a front on view) you have to push with the right arm in order for it to continue to add power... that’s when the right arm starts extending and the lag should begin to release. But the left always pulls.


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[Wildthing]

On 11/27/2018 at 9:35 PM, bluesmandan76 said:

At the top of the swing, both hands pull. Halfway down there’s a midswing change: you should continue pulling with the left but push with the right. Once the grip passes the right hip or ribcage in the downswing (from a front on view) you have to push with the right arm in order for it to continue to add power... that’s when the right arm starts extending and the lag should begin to release. But the left always pulls.


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There are some very interesting videos by Dr Sasho Mackenzie that may help enlighten any golf academics concerning the 'kinetics'  of the golf swing. Actually , you might find it quite counterintuitive to your current beliefs.

By the time the club has reached horizontal in the downswing (for virtually all pro swings), the clubshaft is 'forward bending'  and this means that the right hand cannot be pushing like a lever (physics says it can't). In fact the angular velocity of the club is so great that the hands are actually resisting  (ie. negative torque) against the 'pull' of the club's angular momentum.  However , any right arm extension into impact can still push 'right thumb heel pad' on the base of the left thumb (if you are using a Vardon grip) which can help push the lead hand (and handle) faster 'around its hub path track' .  The problem with any excessive push pressure on that 'right thumb heel pad' is that the 'left hand/handle' could be pushed too far forward before club/ball impact. Also , depending on the direction of that push force (not in line with the COG of club) , it will most likely also cause a negative torque which can slow down the angular velocity of the clubhead (although imho, I  can't imagine it would slow the clubhead by any appreciable amount).

Basically after the clubshaft has gone into forward bend state in the late downswing , the golfer is just holding on , while his body pivot is just reacting  to the inertial pull of the club on his arms (but it's also stabilizing the body so that its not pulled off balance) . The pivot is also being used to direct the moving distal segments of the body (including the club) in the correct alignment before impact. 

However, there is nothing to stop a golfer to apply a pull force through/across the handle in the late downswing to increase clubhead speed (maybe add an extra 5mph). People call it 'parametric acceleration'  but it's really a 'moment of force'  caused by a force that is not aligned through the COG of the clubhead.  The problem with doing those sudden pulls is that you have to time it correctly so that you can still hit the ball at the right time and on the sweet spot (Lexi Thompson is pretty good at this).

Here are the videos by Sasho

https://vimeo.com/158419250

https://vimeo.com/158856998

Here is the article from Dave Tutelman explaining how bend on clubshaft affects the torque on the grip/hands (look for title called 'Shaft Bend'). He stated this when he analysed Lee Comeaux's swing kinetics (ie. 'right hand hit' ).

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/swing/handhit.php