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Middler

I won’t be leaving the pin in next year, will others?

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20 hours ago, blackngold_blood said:

I will not however hold any ill feelings toward anyone who wants the pin in.

That's a better way for me to view this pin rule change (option). 👍  Yesterdays round again had a combination of putts where some opted to leave it in (long and downhill typically), but pulled on most.  As you state, for many, including myself, the flag tending and pulling is part routine.  I left the pin on a couple of putts but find I prefer the look of a wide open hole - just seems to fit my eye better. 

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Check the rules history.......the USGA has been wispy washy at best concerning leaving the Pin in. 1935 Pin out, 1952 Pin in, 1962 Pin out, 2019 Pin in.


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I suspect this rule has to do with the dreaded issue "Pace of Play"...For the Pros it might quicken the pace. For us, I don't know. If you have your morning foursome, all agree to putt with flag in, it should quicken the pace. What if 2 out of the four want in and 2 want out. How in the name of sweet Jesus does that quicken pace. With no caddies, 4 guys will be scrambling for the flag to put it in or take it out. While I think some of the new rules are good, flag in and knee height drop are just plain stupid.

 

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I suspect this rule has to do with the dreaded issue "Pace of Play"...For the Pros it might quicken the pace. For us, I don't know. If you have your morning foursome, all agree to putt with flag in, it should quicken the pace. What if 2 out of the four want in and 2 want out. How in the name of sweet Jesus does that quicken pace. With no caddies, 4 guys will be scrambling for the flag to put it in or take it out. While I think some of the new rules are good, flag in and knee height drop are just plain stupid.
 
Where I found it makes a difference so far is when a couple of players are on the green but well back from the hole and 1 or more are still off the green. Now the guys on can go ahead if they want and putt up to the hole while the other guys are still walking to their ball or thinking about their chip shot. Saw that happen on almost every hole with a group split on in or out. Overall it sped up play for the day

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1 hour ago, KevinE said:

I suspect this rule has to do with the dreaded issue "Pace of Play"...For the Pros it might quicken the pace. For us, I don't know. If you have your morning foursome, all agree to putt with flag in, it should quicken the pace. What if 2 out of the four want in and 2 want out. How in the name of sweet Jesus does that quicken pace. With no caddies, 4 guys will be scrambling for the flag to put it in or take it out. While I think some of the new rules are good, flag in and knee height drop are just plain stupid.

I don't see it this way.  If the closest guy handles the flag, he can take it out when required, and put it back in quickly enough that it won't slow anyone down.  It will take a little communication, and maybe some changes to current habits, but it doesn't HAVE to be a problem.  

I understand the motivation for the lower drop height, to decrease the bounce and roll for a dropped ball (while maintaining some degree of randomness), but I'm not sure this was the best available compromise between the competing motivations.  Even so, its not exactly difficult, its just an adjustment.

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Because I prefer to leave it in, I will usually putt first even if I’m not farthest from the hole. This works.


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It’s interesting so far, the pro tournaments I’ve watched so far in 2019, it seems most pros are not leaving the pin in - they’re observing the old habits. And I think a lot of amateurs emulate what they see pros doing (e.g. reading greens). Until most pros start leaving the pin in...time will tell.

Edited by Middler

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After having played multiple rounds for 6 consecutive days in south Texas my experience is that flag in/out doesn't do much to change the pace of play....  even when we left it in we might have gone a little faster but all of the groups ahead of us didn't leave it in so that just meant we were waiting longer on the next tee box.  😞

There may be other compelling reasons for leaving it in, and those can be justified, but unless the majority of the groups on the course do it, it doesn't seem to speed things up much.

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4 hours ago, KevinE said:

I suspect this rule has to do with the dreaded issue "Pace of Play"...For the Pros it might quicken the pace. For us, I don't know. If you have your morning foursome, all agree to putt with flag in, it should quicken the pace. What if 2 out of the four want in and 2 want out. How in the name of sweet Jesus does that quicken pace. With no caddies, 4 guys will be scrambling for the flag to put it in or take it out. While I think some of the new rules are good, flag in and knee height drop are just plain stupid.

 

 

... I think some are just over thinking this rule. It has been very simple, just leave it in all the time. It is much more convenient, no dropping the flag and making dents in greens and it does save time in aggragate over a full 18 holes. I have already played quite a few rounds there in Phoenix with strangers and all left the flag in with the exception of two groups. One guy wanted it out but after  few holes left it in and decided he liked it. The other group just wanted it out so we played that way, and I put it back in for 2 very fast downhill putts, and when they saw the advantage to that, they did the same. 

... Now there is the mental aspect of having putted to a flagless hole for many years and it takes an adjustment to putt with the flag in. I certainly understand that and when playing with folks that feel that way I will putt with it out. The only time I see at as even a minor problem is a regular group that feels adamant about in/out but with a little time it can be figured out and a minimum amount of time would be required to have it in and out for different golfers on the same hole. But I have to think most would just acquiesce to the group. I will leave it in 100% of the time but have zero problem putting with it out if my group prefers it that way. Like I said, it is really very simple if you don't over think it.  

Edited by chisag
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Look, I think the arguing over guys wanting it in or guys wanting it out and having to 'chinese fire drill' the pin is ridiculous. Rule of thumb, the guys that want the pin in, putt out first, then when you're done, remove the pin and the others go. If you wanna play the who's away game instead of ready golf, you're slowing the game down anyway. In tournaments and official events, I understand the want to abide by all the rules, but rounds on the weekend or skins game, just do it this way and everyone is happy.

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58 minutes ago, Berg Ryman said:

Look, I think the arguing over guys wanting it in or guys wanting it out and having to 'chinese fire drill' the pin is ridiculous. Rule of thumb, the guys that want the pin in, putt out first, then when you're done, remove the pin and the others go. If you wanna play the who's away game instead of ready golf, you're slowing the game down anyway. In tournaments and official events, I understand the want to abide by all the rules, but rounds on the weekend or skins game, just do it this way and everyone is happy.

Another simple way to handle the flag is simply to never put it down.  If I pull it for player 1, and I know player 2 wants it in, I just put it in as soon as player 1's ball stops rolling.  No delay at all, the flag is back in well before player 2 is ready to putt.  Repeat as necessary until all players are done.  Yes, it will mean communicating clearly (which doesn't always happen), and a slight change to old habits, but its really not rocket science.

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They just talked about the flagstick. Said For the pros the flagstick are the same for every tournament. Where us ametuer’s May have issues is in areas where there is heavy winds, and the course will use a thicker  sturdier flagstick . 

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I'll be leaving the flagstick in until the first time my ball bounces off of it.


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On 1/20/2019 at 1:51 PM, fozcycle said:

Check the rules history.......the USGA has been wispy washy at best concerning leaving the Pin in. 1935 Pin out, 1952 Pin in, 1962 Pin out, 2019 Pin in.


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Interesting. I was unaware of the history on this.  Does anyone know if the previous changes were attempts to speed up play?

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12 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Interesting. I was unaware of the history on this.  Does anyone know if the previous changes were attempts to speed up play?

http://ruleshistory.com/green.html

This site shows a little different timeline than @fozcycle mentioned, but its certainly been subject to change over the years.  The rules have also varied depending on whether you were playing a match, or a stroke play competition.  I don't really know why those specific changes were made.

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On 1/23/2019 at 9:04 AM, Middler said:

It’s interesting so far, the pro tournaments I’ve watched so far in 2019, it seems most pros are not leaving the pin in - they’re observing the old habits. And I think a lot of amateurs emulate what they see pros doing (e.g. reading greens). Until most pros start leaving the pin in...time will tell.

Walking around at the Farmer's, I was struck by just how many pros leave it in. Really caught me off guard seeing guys regularly leave it in for medium-long range putts. They were still pulling for the shortish ones so maybe it's just the way the producers are stitching together the shots. 

 

On 1/20/2019 at 9:16 AM, fixyurdivot said:

...... I prefer the look of a wide open hole - just seems to fit my eye better. 

Mentally, I think I'm in the same space. I've been three-putting much more since I've been consciously leaving the pin in. Psychologically, the hole feels smaller and I've yet to clang one off the pin so I'm not seeing the benefit indicated by the studies.

 If anything, these three putts are a result of poor speed control caused by focusing too much on the stick.  In my round yesterday, I accidentally pulled it by force of habit on 17 and that was the only putt I drained. 

_______________________________________

Lastly, this tweet gives some good food for thought. My thought is one, whichever major Bryson wins. 

 

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I've only had 2 rounds so far using pin in (weather pretty poor here just now). Most of my poor putts come up short or way short so having the pin in as a kind of mental backstop has helped me hit it harder without fear of shooting way past (yes I know if it misses the pin it will still go way past) but it's just in my head just now that a lip out is less likely with it in.

 

Time will tell when the season gets under way end of April .....did I mention our weather sux!

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Left it in every hole when I played 9 and I was still waiting ON EVERY SHOT for the twosome in front of me. Either we all agree to leave it in and speed up play for everyone or we do whatever and things stay as they are.

It does no good for me or my group to leave it in with the impetus on playing more efficiently if that means we/I just catch up to the group in front sooner so that we need to wait...and I'm willing to bet that the group in front won't be willing to let someone play through simply because they are leaving the pin in.

Now, if you leave it in to increase your chances for making the putt that's a different story. 🙂

 

 

 

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