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revkev

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I enjoyed this blog entry and learned a valuable lesson from it. Four years ago I was involved in a MGS SCOR wedge test. It was about dispersion so I had to measure all of my approaches inside of 120 yards (my yardage with the PW replacement)

 

My proximity to the pin was much closer to touring pro than the 0-5 distances in the ACROS database. 19.7 in the 60-80 range and 30.3 in the 100-120.

 

Actually this makes sense - I was a 0-5 handicap who averaged 230 with driver. That’s 15-20 yards below average for that handicap bracket so I needed to make it up somehow.

 

My problem was that I didn’t hit the ball long enough to leave a lot of shots in the 60-80 yard range. :)

 

 

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It was an interesting read and I am sure some people will disagree with the information in the blog post; just look at the blog comments.

It comes down to practice and if you don’t practice the partial wedge game laying up to a farther distance may be better.

A player needs to understand the strategy to the game in order to make informed decisions on what to do.

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Conventional wisdom dies slowly, and this is an example.  Without actively working on partial wedges, I've still chosen to get as close as reasonably possible to the green, for the last year or two.  I do believe I'm averaging closer to the pin, although I don't keep the statistics. 

Obviously there are caveats to the general guidelines.  Don't take on significant additional risk in trying to get 30 yards closer, don't try to squeeze that shot into a skinny part of the fairway when its much wider a few yards further from the green.  If the green and pin position absolutely require you to hit a shot with a lot of spin, lay back to full swing distance.

I think what many people forget are the number of times they hit that full wedge fat, or thin, or wide of the flag.  Because they feel "comfortable" with the full swing yardage, they remember the good shots.  Because they feel "uncomfortable" with the partial shots, they remember the bad ones.  Most of us don't want to be proven wrong, so there's a natural tendency to remember only the shots that conform to our current opinion.  I think that the flagstick question is another where we'll eventually learn that leaving it in is the best play, in general, but many people will refuse to even consider the data.

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I found the blog interesting and confirming at least what is representative of my game. Comparing my fairway to Chipping - I'm far better at the latter. Now I just need remember that when I'm going for the green. 

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I usually try to leave myself an 80 yards shot on layups because that is a full 58°. I'd say my average proximity on 80 yard shots is around 23 feet which is above the average for my bracket, but I lose those shots by hitting so few fairways. My next full swing wedge is a 115 yard shot, and while that may sound like a big gap, it has made me really good at controlling distance on partial swings. I have it down to that my 100 yard shot is a 3/4 GW and I can throttle up or down from there. 

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1 hour ago, GB13 said:

I usually try to leave myself an 80 yards shot on layups because that is a full 58°. I'd say my average proximity on 80 yard shots is around 23 feet which is above the average for my bracket, but I lose those shots by hitting so few fairways. My next full swing wedge is a 115 yard shot, and while that may sound like a big gap, it has made me really good at controlling distance on partial swings. I have it down to that my 100 yard shot is a 3/4 GW and I can throttle up or down from there. 

You should try that 3/4 swing with your shortest wedge.  You'll do better from 60 than you do from 80 using the same logic as you use with the GW.  Then learn a 1/2 swing feel, you'll do better still from 40.

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3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

You should try that 3/4 swing with your shortest wedge.  You'll do better from 60 than you do from 80 using the same logic as you use with the GW.  Then learn a 1/2 swing feel, you'll do better still from 40.

That is definitely in the works for the off-season along with straightening the driver up. It could really help my short game if I can get better at the 40-60 yard shots. 

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I read the blog article, and I also thought those distances from the pin were further than I achieve on average.  There aren't many holes where there are hazards in the 60-80 yard range, so on long holes I try to get as close as possible.  Several par 4's are just not reachable in 2 shots mostly depending on the wind.  So, I get a lot of practice on partial shots.  I do it all on feel; I don't even need the yardage at my home course.  I've tried practicing with numbers from the green and the clock swing for partial shots, but I didn't have any better results than the feel shots with my 58º SCOR... my goto wedge for anything inside 80 yards.

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I am wondering, does the advantage gained by being closer to the pin, make up for the extra risk of getting it closer?

Let's say I am on a Par 5 that is 500 yards, and I hit a not so great drive and am 300 yards out, my options are, take a 4 iron, and have 110 yards, or take a 3W and have 70 yards.  We know that IF I hit both shots perfectly, I should be able to get 7 feet closer with the 3W. However, the chances of me doing something idiotic with a 3W are much higher than with a 4 iron. With a 3W, there is a distinct possibility that I have 110 yards out of the rough from behind a tree. If we factor in those type of shots, is the difference in layup distance 7 feet from the pin? Or can it be advantageous to lay up farther back?

 

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I am wondering, does the advantage gained by being closer to the pin, make up for the extra risk of getting it closer?
Let's say I am on a Par 5 that is 500 yards, and I hit a not so great drive and am 300 yards out, my options are, take a 4 iron, and have 110 yards, or take a 3W and have 70 yards.  We know that IF I hit both shots perfectly, I should be able to get 7 feet closer with the 3W. However, the chances of me doing something idiotic with a 3W are much higher than with a 4 iron. With a 3W, there is a distinct possibility that I have 110 yards out of the rough from behind a tree. If we factor in those type of shots, is the difference in layup distance 7 feet from the pin? Or can it be advantageous to lay up farther back?
 

I think you should always assess the chance you can execute the necessary shot. If you can only pull off that 3 wood shot 20% of the time you may not want to try. If the landing area is open and matches up with your typical shot area take more club. I don’t think the article is saying to always hit it as far as possible, you still have to manage turn way around the course.

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18 minutes ago, cnosil said:


I think you should always assess the chance you can execute the necessary shot. If you can only pull off that 3 wood shot 20% of the time you may not want to try. If the landing area is open and matches up with your typical shot area take more club. I don’t think the article is saying to always hit it as far as possible, you still have to manage turn way around the course.

I agree completely, you want to get as close as possible without taking on significant additional risk.  This is where it really helps to have data on your personal pattern with each club.  Just remember its not an either/or proposition.  You won't always hit your 4-iron solid and straight, you won't always hit your 3-wood crooked.  And when you DO hit a bad shot with your 4-iron, you might be 140 yards out and behind a tree, instead of 110 out with your mishit 3-wood.  So the question becomes, does the advantage of being 30 yards closer most of the time override the  risk of being behind a tree an additional 10%  of the time.  If that's the right number, I'd say the risk is worth it, hit 3-wood.  Or maybe that risk of being in trouble is 40% higher, depending on the player, so the additional risk isn't justified.

There's a good book available that discusses this issue in detail, called Lowest Score Wins.  Be aware, the book was written by the owner of a different golf website, and I don't advertise other websites when I'm here.  Nevertheless, the book can be very valuable in understanding club and shot selection strategies.

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I agree completely, you want to get as close as possible without taking on significant additional risk.  This is where it really helps to have data on your personal pattern with each club.  Just remember its not an either/or proposition.  You won't always hit your 4-iron solid and straight, you won't always hit your 3-wood crooked.  And when you DO hit a bad shot with your 4-iron, you might be 140 yards out and behind a tree, instead of 110 out with your mishit 3-wood.  So the question becomes, does the advantage of being 30 yards closer most of the time override the  risk of being behind a tree an additional 10%  of the time.  If that's the right number, I'd say the risk is worth it, hit 3-wood.  Or maybe that risk of being in trouble is 40% higher, depending on the player, so the additional risk isn't justified.
There's a good book available that discusses this issue in detail, called Lowest Score Wins.  Be aware, the book was written by the owner of a different golf website, and I don't advertise other websites when I'm here.  Nevertheless, the book can be very valuable in understanding club and shot selection strategies.


While I haven’t read that book I have read about it and it does reinforce the principle. Mark Brodie’s book and Scott Fawcett’s DECADE program are also good references for how to decide when to be aggressive. There are a couple of videos on Scott’s YouTube site that illustrate how to make decisions based on your typical dispersion and miss. Both LSW and DECADE talk about where to aim based on your shot patterns.

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I have always been partial to partial shots. (Hehe) I practice the 1/4-1/2-3/4 wedge regularly. This year because it injury, until last week, 3/4 was my full pain-free swing. This has benefited my game because instead of hitting a 7 iron into a green, I make a 3/4 5 Iron swing. My GIR’s are way up as is my proximity to the hole especially on the par 5’s and 3’s. I have expanded that practice even to my long irons, and I attribute my decent play with fellow MGSpy’s in Houston last month to this.

 

Unfortunately, I have been making 3/4 swings with the driver also and the par 4’s have kicked my butt.

 

So the key thing I have proven to myself is that all the irons are not about distance but distance control and direction. Just because you are “8 Iron” distance doesn’t mean you have to hit an 8 Iron.

 

 

 

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I don't play to a preferred layup distance.  If there is a hazard or I'm out a distance that's sporty to make the green, I just get as close as possible.  There are a couple of holes at a course we play in Yuma that, depending on how well the drive is hit, leaves me in this predicament.  To be honest, I feel just as confident pin hunting with my 7i as I do with my PW.  My distance control is pretty good and my iron shots tend to drop like sacks of sand and hold close to impact.  In addition to bunker shots, trying the "throttled" swing on my wedge, as a number of you have suggested in this and other threads, is on my winter game improvement list.

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I’ve been doing a lot better when I use my 58* from 80 and inside. I’ve really gotten used to the yardage/swing, and it’s my “go-to” club. I can see how this data would be accurate!


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Morgan Hoffmann did a demo at one of my local courses.  When discussing his short game strategy, he showed us how he knows exact yardages and how he can take 5yds off by choking down 1", or 10 by 2". 

Anyway, with that in mind, I discovered that a swing from 9oclock with my 50degree, choked half way down the grip, flew 70-72 yards every time, with enough height to stop at 75.  So, 75 became my magic number.   50yds: same swing choked so my bottom hand is at the bottom of the grip.  

I play everything inside 100 with that 50deg, except for bunkers, short sided chips, flops, specialty shots.  Call me old skool but it's what I'm comfortable doing.  

If I'm at 100 and not feeling good with fuller shots I'll choke down and take a little off the PW.  

Outside of that, it looks like I should look into Arccos 🙂 and maybe figure out how to work the other wedges into my game.  🙂

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I am not that good of a ball striker to vary shot distance by choking down on a club.  I have a hard enough time making good contact with my hands in the same position all the time.  When I choke down, I will most likely hit the ball thin.  I'm much better at changing the amount of backswing.

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Let's say I am on a Par 5 that is 500 yards, and I hit a not so great drive and am 300 yards out, my options are, take a 4 iron, and have 110 yards, or take a 3W and have 70 yards.  
 


Or hit a pair of 7 irons?

Let’s face it, I duffed my drive and now have a tendency to want to muscle my second shot in order to make up that lost yardage. For me(!) that doesn’t work out so well. Duffed shot number 2 coming up.

Hitting a pair of 7’s takes that pressure off. Hitting a 7 is easy, hitting it twice in a row is even easier. I’m mentally prepared for that third shot.

Now if I could just convince myself to follow this advice instead of trying a hero shot 🤨


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I am often splitting up my shots.  But for me, I've made a rule to do so when yardage is over 175, which would be hybrid or wood zone. So, PW then GW, or a long iron then likely some touchy pitch/chip/bunker shot.  

Sometimes I'll hit the 5i or hyb if there is less trouble and wider fairway, knowing that if I hit it really bad it will end up somewhere in the layup zone anyway. 

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8 hours ago, toehold57 said:

Or hit a pair of 7 irons?

Let’s face it, I duffed my drive and now have a tendency to want to muscle my second shot in order to make up that lost yardage. For me(!) that doesn’t work out so well. Duffed shot number 2 coming up.

Hitting a pair of 7’s takes that pressure off. Hitting a 7 is easy, hitting it twice in a row is even easier. I’m mentally prepared for that third shot.
 

 

Obviously, wanting to "muscle" a shot is a potential problem, that's one thing to try to work through.  But don't you also get the urge to muscle your 7-iron?  And if you duff your 7-iron, won't you be further away than if you duff a hybrid or 3-wood?  Why not take the longer club, and convince yourself to make a normal good swing.  If you hit it bad, you still might have a 7-iron to the green.  If you hit it good, you have a wedge, and that's a LOT easier than a 7-iron.  Its honestly NOT that easy to hit two solid straight 7-irons in a row, and if you mishit the first one, you'll be looking at long iron or more to get to the green..

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I like my chances much more with a touchy "feel" shot, especially if I can get to within 50 yards, than intentionally leaving a full swing unless there is a hazard that dictates the play. I don't really have  a "recipe" for the distance, rather a combination of reduced backswing and choking down on the club - it's all feel for me. Generally it works out OK, but I would love to have the time to go hit a 1000 balls with partial swings to really dial in the distances of a variety of shots.

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I want to go back to Dave's comment that conventional wisdom dies slowly.  I would add that it never wants to be confused by statistics that contradict it either. 🙂

 

Lots of great comments here - just get as close as possible while using common sense and a realistic understanding of your capabilities and you'll be fine.  It's sounds simple and it's often very difficult.

BTW I managed to get one approach shot from inside of 80 yards yesterday and that was my birdie - hit it to about 8 feet.  I made a stupid play from the left rough on the par 5 7th - I thought that I could draw it enough to get it inside of the traps on the right side of the fairway - almost - should have hit more or less club to take the traps out of play (probably less because more could have brought all sorts of other issues in.)  I should have shot the first trap and hit 8 iron over the trees that I decided to go around with the 5 hybrid. 

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I have the Arccos system and as much as we put faith in their information, I have found that the sensors don't register all the time (I know where to place the phone) and I have to manually enter shots after every round. The club that doesn't register frequently is the putter therefore data on proximity would not be accurate. If I'm in the minority then my comments are irrelevant  but if there is a significant number of us that experience the same problem then.......

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On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 5:50 PM, Kenny B said:

I am not that good of a ball striker to vary shot distance by choking down on a club.  I have a hard enough time making good contact with my hands in the same position all the time.  When I choke down, I will most likely hit the ball thin.  I'm much better at changing the amount of backswing.

I find I choke down when in an uphill lie, or heavy rough.  I do like to know averages, as I also know my club averages.  great read.

:cobra-small:             F7+ w/Fujikura Pro XLR8 Graphite Shaft

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I’m a short game player always have been, but I go for par 5s as long as there isn’t a penalty left of the target. My layup distance can vary based on what the hole gives me though. I’ve laid up to 160 before because that was the only spot available that gave me a full club approach. I propose finding a few different distances you can dial in to keep from getting locked into only one option.


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Right Handed

4.5 handicap

Driver: Nike Vapor Flex with Mitsubishi Rayon Fubuki ZT60x5ct S-flex shaft and stock grip.

3-Metal: Nike VRS 15 degree with Mitsubishi Rayon tour issue Diamana S73x5ct X-flex shaft and GolfPride MCC midsize Black/White grip.

Irons: Ben Hogan PTx 22, 26, 30, 34, 38, 42, 46 degrees standard length and lie with KBS Tour-V stiff shafts and GolfPride MCC midsize Black/White grips.

Wedges: Ben Hogan TK15 54, 58 degrees with KBS Tour-V X-flex shafts and GolfPride MCC midsize Black/White grips.

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This is a super interesting thread to me.

Rev is so confident with the accuracy of his driver that he rarely defers to an alternative club on tight driving holes.

 

I hit driver,   if I was bagging one,   maybe four or five times a round--max.

And if a strong-lofted fairway wood was serving as my driver already, I'd still go to driving iron if I didn't see wide open spaces.

 

But as skittish as I was looking at skinny landing areas, that's how bold I was hitting into greens.

I went for greens.     And two things reinforced that inclination.

 

First was the lob wedge.  The lob wedge took the fear out of short siding myself. 

Forget about full swings from closer in.  Less skillful players struggle with that.

But for little shots around the greens, the very low bounce, high loft lob wedge was a miracle invention.

 

Second was joining my club.

Rev speaks, quite reasonably, about vain players under-clubbing themselves.

At my club, in a largely disparate way, long is usually more trouble than short.

The architect loved to frame greens with trees and bushes in the background.

Being optimistic about your length causes less pain than over-clubbing.

 

Thus, the layup was often accomplished by going for it and falling short.

And you have the lob wedge if you do fall short.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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>> But don't you also get the urge to muscle your 7-iron?

Fair question, and that urge is always there. Who doesn’t want to pull off the hero shot? But if I’m 300 out and I’m smart enough to settle for a pair of sevens, I will tend to realize I can’t get there. All I can do is move the ball forward.

>> And if you duff your 7-iron, won't you be further away than if you duff a hybrid or 3-wood?  Why not take the longer club, and convince yourself to make a normal good swing.  If you hit it bad, you still might have a 7-iron to the green.  If you hit it good, you have a wedge, and that's a LOT easier than a 7-iron.  Its honestly NOT that easy to hit two solid straight 7-irons in a row, and if you mishit the first one, you'll be looking at long iron or more to get to the green.

I guess it depends on the person. For me, I have a tendency to pull hook the longer clubs (hence the ‘muscle’ comment). Hitting a pair of seven irons is a lot easier and a place where I tend to be pretty confident.

Play to your strengths!



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I haven't read the blog article. But playing probably 80% of my rounds on my home course I know it like the back of my hand. Which means knowing where my layups should be for a good approach. And most days that's where I am when laying up. I look at laying up in several different ways that don't always mean on a par 5 for example. But I'll start with par 5's which for me always entails a layup shot. Always. My home course is par 70 with only two par 5's. On the longest of the two; my layup results in my having a 7i or 8i approach most of the time. On the other one I layup to about 90-100 yards leaving me with a 52*-56* wedge most days. I also layup so to speak on a couple of par 4's. What that means is not hitting a driver and instead using my 4w for example. But by doing so on certain days and conditions I'll still be hitting my approach with anything from an 8i to PW. Some of my decisions on these par 4's might be due to how I'm hitting the ball that particular day or if I'm trying to play safe and preserve a good round or save a match or something.

Ok I did just go and take a quick look at the article. If I had data - measurements of my approach shots and proximity to the pin I'd probably fall right into the Hcp. category for 0-5 players. Although I do think I'm inside that mark by some measure. Why do I think that? Because our greens are very small as compared to more modern course designs where the greens are huge. I also think by playing on small greens it helps tighten my overall dispersion. 41'-49' (13-16 Yards) could put you off the green many times at my course I think. Anywhoo.... that's my 2 cents.

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                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

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