Why aren't LPGA players outdriving PGA players?

[Wildthing]

13 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

No good golfer maintains lag. They are releasing the wrist cock and bowing the wrist in the transition and are actually moving towards “flipping” at impact. Monte has several videos on this. I also posted his blog about hip speed and the lpga.

Actually when you take a proper grip there’s cupping of the lead wrist. It’s why good instructors like AMG, GG, Monte, Eric Cogorno, Adam Porzak, Alex Riggs (iirc Martin Chuck talks about this in his yt videos) show the proper swing takeaway is a combination of bowing and cocking the wrist. The more you bow the less you can cock. This is what happens to get to p2. Also no further setting of the wrist is needed at this point.

 

3D systems have found that virtually all golfers (except Daniel Berger)  move their lead wrist in the extension direction (into/through impact) while their wrist is either still in flexion or neutral (which might look like extension as per the making the hand into a fist  example I mentioned). You have to be careful with 3D systems because their zero point is similar to the 'neutral' picture below (imagine a sensor placed on the back of the wrist and one on the back of the forearm) . 

Then again look at how flexion/extension is measured depending on the movement of that sensor on the back of the wrist.

 

 

Then look a what a 'neutral'  fist would look like (ie. similar to gripping the handle of the club) and then conclude whether the 3D  system would measure the wrist as being in extension (when frankly it isn't - because its still neutral).

I'm not in total agreement with many golf instructors claims there is rapid extension (flipping) of the lead wrist through impact . If that was the case , why isn't the clubshaft bypassing the lead forearm several inches post impact.

Example : Justin Thomas

Dustin Johnson

 

And many more !

I agree that bowing the lead wrist will prevent radial deviation (cocking )  but then most of the data is showing PGA golfers in extension at the top of the backswing .  I think Tyler Ferrell was promoting something called the 'reverse motorcycle' move  to help square the clubface by impact but I haven't seen all the data to prove that belief.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

you are saying the samething I’ve been saying. 

1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

I'm not in total agreement with many golf instructors claims there is rapid extension (flipping) of the lead wrist through impact . If that was the case , why isn't the clubshaft bypassing the lead forearm several inches post impact.

None of the instructors I’ve watched have said anything about rapid extension through impact. What you show is what they say. At p6 all good golfers have bowing of the wrist and from here it starts to release and move towards the extension. Each golfer is going to be at different points based on their swing. DJ will be more bowed than JT as you show because of what they are trying to do in their swings. Golf is a game of matchups. Brooks has to early extend in his swing and hold the face because of how he moves in the golf swing. Look at the photos from Ben Hogans book. You will see how the wrist bows then flexes. 

 

1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

I agree that bowing the lead wrist will prevent radial deviation (cocking )  but then most of the data is showing PGA golfers in extension at the top of the backswing .  I think Tyler Ferrell was promoting something called the 'reverse motorcycle' move  to help square the clubface by impact but I haven't seen all the data to prove that belief.

Most golfers don’t have the same bowing that dj does. Remember the swing is 1/2 over from lead arm parallel and what good golfers are trying to accomplish at impact is starting to take place here. AMG has measured the golf swing to be about 1 sec. There’s .25 seconds from the top of the swing to impact. Every instructor will tell you there’s no chance to recover from a bad position at this point and any thought you have there will happen after impact. So yes by time the good golfers get to the top of swing they have already started making the transition. This is the difference between good golfers and is bad ones. Many of us think in terms of takeaway, backswing and downswing. When there is no separation between them. AMG demonstrates this in a number of videos where they show how amateurs move all the weight (not pressure) in the backswing, then move all the weigh forward in the downswing and treat them as two separate actions 
 

Edit: looking at a static position in golf swings is almost pointless. The golf swing is a dynamic movement and positions occur because of the swing. 

[Goober]

So the guys who have or create lag are the ones who bow their wrists in the swing? So their release style would be drive holding?

I often wonder how Ben Hogan had all that lag with his cupping action he had 

[russtopherb]

31 minutes ago, Goober said:

So the guys who have or create lag are the ones who bow their wrists in the swing? So their release style would be drive holding?

I often wonder how Ben Hogan had all that lag with his cupping action he had 

No. Lag is a byproduct of everything else being done properly and in sync in the swing. If you're thinking about lag, then you're doing it wrong.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

So the guys who have or create lag are the ones who bow their wrists in the swing? So their release style would be drive holding?

I often wonder how Ben Hogan had all that lag with his cupping action he had 

Go look at Monte Scheinblum social media or buy his efficient swing series, he goes into how lag isn’t what the talking heads in tv discuss or that anyone holds lag.

Bradley Hughes has a lot on it and if you are interested in Ben Hogan’s approach this is how Bradley teaches. His swing and philosophy is about the old school swing. His YouTube channel has a ton of information 

[Goober]

This is for Ricky, Russ, or Wildman. It appears as if the pro players swing all has this lag and pretty angles. They can’t fake it in any way. That is their swing that we all idolize at one time or another;However, the amateur swings are the ones who may be faking this stuff? Do they pick their best swings out of hundreds filmed in slow motion showing they can do lag? So they have two swings. A video camera swing. And their actual on course swing

Also, if during these lessons with pros. Out of many swings of them on the practice range during the lesson. The pro may pick one and say “ that is it “ you got it. But what about the others hundreds of swings where he didn’t have it during the lesson? And how can an amateur who has a family or full time job emulate that one swing he did correctly with the teaching pro? I’m positive the advice in question they received will help. I’m thinking these technical posts of lag and pretty tour angles would decade possibly a few decades for us amateurs to show in our on course golf swings. I guess the old adage “sometimes one has to take two steps backwards to go one step forward”. Slow motion drills I guess would help. But what happens when you try and even add some speed? I’m pretty sure the old on course swing shows back up again 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Goober

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 hours ago, Goober said:

This is for Ricky, Russ, or Wildman. It appears as if the pro players swing all has this lag and pretty angles. They can’t fake it in any way. That is their swing that we all idolize at one time or another;However, the amateur swings are the ones who may be faking this stuff? Do they pick their best swings out of hundreds filmed in slow motion showing they can do lag? So they have two swings. A video camera swing. And their actual on course swing

Also, if during these lessons with pros. Out of many swings of them on the practice range during the lesson. The pro may pick one and say “ that is it “ you got it. But what about the others hundreds of swings where he didn’t have it during the lesson? And how can an amateur who has a family or full time job emulate that one swing he did correctly with the teaching pro? I’m positive the advice in question they received will help. I’m thinking these technical posts of lag and pretty tour angles would decade possibly a few decades for us amateurs to show in our on course golf swings. I guess the old adage “sometimes one has to take two steps backwards to go one step forward”. Slow motion drills I guess would help. But what happens when you try and even add some speed? I’m pretty sure the old on course swing shows back up again 

Amateurs need to remove lag from their thoughts about the swing. The wrists move from a cup aka extension at address, it will depend on the strength of one’s lead hand thru bowing aka flexion and back to extension at/past contact. Lag is a term used on tv and no pro golfer is trying to maintain it in the swing. The wrist movement is an important aspect of the swing and those who are good use the wrists properly. 
 

The wrists are losing the angle in the transition while gaining some bowing for the vast majority of pros. DJ really can’t gain much more than what he has at the end of the backswing.

The trail arm is also unfolding at the same time this happens. This is what Monte refers to as cast a in the no turn cast swing or also cast to 8. 
 

As for amateurs taking lessons the pro should be giving the student drills to work on and finding which thought or feel works for that student. The student then needs to spend the time in between lesson working on that movement doing the drills and trying to do it in full swings. Several approaches to this. Break the practice session into block practice where you work on the drill for a third of the time you are on the range, the next third is using that feeling to make full swings and the last third hitting shots like you were playing on a course. Another way is to do 5-6 swings with the drill and then 10 full swings. Rinse and repeat for the rest of the range session.

This is why taking lessons once a week is probably too often for most people because they don’t have the time to dedicate to practicing what they learned.

The other issue is amateurs think things are going to get better right away when I’m reality swing changes take lots of time

[silver & black]

This amature just swings his swing as "they" say...lol.

If I have to think about all this mumbo jumbo you guys are talking about, I'd never hit the ball!

[RickyBobby_PR]

49 minutes ago, silver & black said:

This amature just swings his swing as "they" say...lol.

If I have to think about all this mumbo jumbo you guys are talking about, I'd never hit the ball!

Like or not the mumbo jumbo is how the swing works. One has to train the body and the swing to move in the right way. This is done on the range. On the course isn’t the time to think. The pre shot routine on the course is to determine the shot one is trying to hit and create a feeling to execute that swing. Then make the swing.

Nothing wrong with just swinging one’s swing and approach golf however one chooses. There’s things that good golfers do then there’s everyone else

[cnosil]

56 minutes ago, silver & black said:

This amature just swings his swing as "they" say...lol.

If I have to think about all this mumbo jumbo you guys are talking about, I'd never hit the ball!

And that is fine.  I doubt anyone thinks about all this stuff when they swing.  This stuff is about learning and meant for people that want to understand the details of the swing.   Swing your swing and understand at whatever detail you desire.  

[silver & black]

You guys seem to be getting your panties in a bunch over my post. I was just inserting a little levity...lol.

I won't do it again... promise.

[cnosil]

4 minutes ago, silver & black said:

You guys seem to be getting your panties in a bunch over my post. I was just inserting a little levity...lol.

I won't do it again... promise.

  They are in their debate world;   way over my head too.  

[Goober]

Seems like even the smallest changes in our physical swing makeup… for us amateur golfers would be a monumental win. I guess if I had to pick a current instructor too follow. I would pick the one who had the most success with high handicap players. That would be the one who you know could handle the biggest of swing issues and make adjustments that were needed. Those overhauls for guys who really struggled are the ones I enjoy watching and following 

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 minutes ago, Goober said:

Seems like even the smallest changes in our physical swing makeup… for us amateur golfers would be a monumental win. I guess if I had to pick a current instructor too follow. I would pick the one who had the most success with high handicap players. That would be the one who you know could handle the biggest of swing issues and make adjustments that were needed. Those overhauls for guys who really struggled are the ones I enjoy watching and following 

It depends on what the change is and how dedicated the golfer is. Many of us just don’t have the time to dedicate to hours upon hours to practice and also play along with everything else in life. 
 

Another aspect is how one practices. Amateurs want quick results and will start making full speed swings thinking what they’ve worked on is going to just happen. Instead of taking it slow and keeping practice for the range and playing golf on the course. This was something GG touched on in his course. Play your swing on the course and know that the more work you do on the range the more likely it will eventually carry over to your playing.

Sometimes it’s a simple change in setup, grip or takeaway that will fix a bunch of issues.

Watch these 3 videos to see how small changes can have a big improvement 

 

[Wildthing]

On 1/22/2022 at 4:34 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

you are saying the samething I’ve been saying. 

None of the instructors I’ve watched have said anything about rapid extension through impact. 

Here is a video from James Leitz that is claiming 700 degrees/sec in the lead wrist extension direction at impact and he even says it's like a 5th Power Accumulator (TGM spiel) in the golf swing.  Jon Sinclair (who has probably the largest 3D database of Tour Pros in the world) and Dan Carraher think the same.

 

Here's another interesting video with Dr Sasho Mackenzie (see from 18:16 -23:30)  talking about wrists and its effect on clubhead speed.

 

 

Again , if this is true that lead wrist moving rapidly in the extension direction is a clubhead speed generator (this movement in the extension direction is not caused by active wrist extension but by using physics -something called an 'In Plane MOF' ). But there is still the question why the lead wrist hasn't flipped through impact and why the club shaft hasn't bypassed the lead arm for several inches post impact  (see the list of golfers in this link below).

Capture images of DHers (perfectgolfswingreview.net)

Jon Sinclair and others say that it's contact with the ball that slows the clubhead down and that is the reason why the club shaft doesn't bypass the lead arm . If that is the case then why are there also many golfers where the club shaft does bypass the lead arm post impact ?

It would be very easy to check this out looking at the 3D swing data of  'Drive Holders' and 'Non-Drive Holders'   making swings with and without a ball , but apparently no-one wishes to conduct those tests to determine the truth.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 2/3/2022 at 9:48 PM, Wildthing said:

Here is a video from James Leitz that is claiming 700 degrees/sec in the lead wrist extension direction at impact and he even says it's like a 5th Power Accumulator (TGM spiel) in the golf swing.  Jon Sinclair (who has probably the largest 3D database of Tour Pros in the world) and Dan Carraher think the same.

 

Here's another interesting video with Dr Sasho Mackenzie (see from 18:16 -23:30)  talking about wrists and its effect on clubhead speed.

 

 

Again , if this is true that lead wrist moving rapidly in the extension direction is a clubhead speed generator (this movement in the extension direction is not caused by active wrist extension but by using physics -something called an 'In Plane MOF' ). But there is still the question why the lead wrist hasn't flipped through impact and why the club shaft hasn't bypassed the lead arm for several inches post impact  (see the list of golfers in this link below).

Capture images of DHers (perfectgolfswingreview.net)

Jon Sinclair and others say that it's contact with the ball that slows the clubhead down and that is the reason why the club shaft doesn't bypass the lead arm . If that is the case then why are there also many golfers where the club shaft does bypass the lead arm post impact ?

It would be very easy to check this out looking at the 3D swing data of  'Drive Holders' and 'Non-Drive Holders'   making swings with and without a ball , but apparently no-one wishes to conduct those tests to determine the truth.

 

 

 

 

Golf swing is about matchups. Depending on what one does with the clubface in the backswing and how they transition that into the downswing and into contact along with the body they will have to do different things. Also what type of shot they are trying to play. Those hitting fades are going to do different things than those hitting draws, even more so when you get into higher or lower flighted balls.
 

GG goes into a lot of this in his online course. He breaks down DJ and Brooks swing alot and obviously Wolff’s and Johnny Rodriguez. What DJ does is going to be different than what Brooks is going to do. Brooks has some early extension in the swing and has to manipulate his body and club to hit the ball.

Speed comes from the arms and hands.  GG talks show how much faster the arms move compared to the body. 

Mike Adams talks about if one wants to swing faster they need to move the arms faster. 
 

Here’s AMG talking about acceleration in the swing. They have a bunch of good videos on how the wrists and arms should move. 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/B9KO2tzlLNO/

and one of their YouTube videos 

Bradley Hughes has some good videos on speed and what you talk about in the post about the swing slowing down and how to follow thru. His drill 1 is good for impact, 3 iirc is post impact and 4 or 5 is the transition/downswing