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Groove Rule, has it really affected you?


DaveP043

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In a lot of the threads concerning the USGA and the Rules, a number of posters have mentioned the 2010 groove rule as something specific that the USGA really screwed up.  But as far as I can tell, it hasn't had any effect for almost all golfers.  The Rule required all clubs made after 2010 to have conforming grooves.  The Rule took effect as a Condition of Competition for a small number of USGA events in 2010, and for all USGA events and qualifiers in 2014.  But the USGA recommends that, until no sooner than 2024, the new grooves not be required for anything other than competitions that involve "professional-level players and/or players at the highest levels of amateur golf."

I know that the rules required clubmakers to change their manufacturing processes to produce conforming grooves between its the rule's announcement in 2008 and its first use in 2010.   Clubmakers routinely change their clubs on a yearly basis, so I don't see that as a big issue, maybe some of you do.  A few of us play clubs made before 2010, and some of those clubs might not conform to the 2010 rules.  But unless you're a really elite player, you can keep playing those clubs for another 5 years before you have to consider a change.

So my question, who among us has REALLY been effected by the 2010 groove rules?

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The only thing it affected was my pocket book. Had to buy new irons to play in the tournaments I do. I can't tell a difference between the grooves at all. 

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1 minute ago, THEZIPR23 said:

The only thing it affected was my pocket book. Had to buy new irons to play in the tournaments I do. I can't tell a difference between the grooves at all. 

I see you're a low handicapper, which tournaments were you in?  US Open qualifiers?  Do top state-level tournaments require the newer grooves?  College competitions?

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Well, it sort of affected me, but only somewhat.

I bought my PING i3+ irons around 2003 or so, and had been playing them until last year.  They do not conform to the new groove rules.  But my reasoning for replacing them with new irons was somewhat related to the new groove rule, and somewhat related to how my swing had changed after a long layoff from golf, when I started playing again avidly in late 2014.  I started shopping for new irons a couple of years ago I guess and finally pulled the trigger on new irons not too long ago.  I think I've had my PING G irons in my bag for over a year, probably longer?  

Sorry, the older I get time seems to start running together and I don't really remember specific dates or years anymore.  But I did in fact get new irons partially to have irons that conform to the new groove rules, but mainly my decision to change was based on how the lie angle in my irons had drastically changed, and I need something that would match my new swing.

Do I play in high level USGA tournaments?  But I do play in FSGA events that are at somewhat of a high level of competition.  But honestly, with the results in the few high level tournaments I played in I seriously doubt anyone would care what clubs I am playing, because unless you are evaluating the next to dead last finishers I don't think it will matter in my case.

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2 minutes ago, GSwag said:

Do I play in high level USGA tournaments?  But I do play in FSGA events that are at somewhat of a high level of competition.  But honestly, with the results in the few high level tournaments I played in I seriously doubt anyone would care what clubs I am playing, because unless you are evaluating the next to dead last finishers I don't think it will matter in my case.

Do the FSGA events require 2010 conforming clubs?  I looked quickly at VSGA stuff, and couldn't find any information, probably because this year's competitions are over, and they don't have anything on next year's competitions yet.

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:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

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:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

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Reston, Virginia

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6 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I see you're a low handicapper, which tournaments were you in?  US Open qualifiers?  Do top state-level tournaments require the newer grooves?  College competitions?

Haven't played USGA yet, however all of our association (NCGA) scratch events require compliance with the rule. They in essence follow what the USGA implements. Because of the way the points work for NCGA, all city/county events fall under this. 

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4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Do the FSGA events require 2010 conforming clubs?  I looked quickly at VSGA stuff, and couldn't find any information, probably because this year's competitions are over, and they don't have anything on next year's competitions yet.

I haven't seen anything in writing, but they do say that we play USGA rules and all of that.  Is the groove rule anything anyone is taking about anywhere I go?  No, not a word by anyone.

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I think that the reason that this change get's such a bad rap is because most people can't tell a difference between the two. So it seems that the change was a collaboration between the USGA and OEM's. I would be curious if anyone is actually able to tell the difference between conforming and non-conforming and how much of a change it actually is. 

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I'm with thezipr23.  The reason they f'd up this rule wasn't because it really affected how much spin we can put on the ball.  It's because they thought it would affect how much spin goes on the ball without realizing OEM's would just find a way to make it a net zero change.

For most people you're really not going to be able to tell the difference between a current conforming wedge spin and an older non-conforming wedge spin.  So if there is really no difference then what was the point for making the rule in the first place?  That's why I saw they screwed up the rule.

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11 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Haven't played USGA yet, however all of our association (NCGA) scratch events require compliance with the rule. They in essence follow what the USGA implements. Because of the way the points work for NCGA, all city/county events fall under this. 

Please understand, I'm interested in understanding how this has worked so far.  From what I see here:

https://ncga.org/player-handbook/

In particular the Hard Card stating the conditions of competition, the 2016 Rules of Golf apply for this season's competitions.  The Equipment rules currently allow the use of pre-2010 grooves unless the conditions of competition require the newer grooves.  It seems possible that the highest level events would have additional requirements, but I don't see that conforming grooves are required in general.

4 minutes ago, hckymeyer said:

I'm with thezipr23.  The reason they f'd up this rule wasn't because it really affected how much spin we can put on the ball.  It's because they thought it would affect how much spin goes on the ball without realizing OEM's would just find a way to make it a net zero change.

For most people you're really not going to be able to tell the difference between a current conforming wedge spin and an older non-conforming wedge spin.  So if there is really no difference then what was the point for making the rule in the first place?  That's why I saw they screwed up the rule.

But back to my question, has it really affected you?  Have you been required to buy new clubs to play in specific events?   I'm not trying to suggest that the rule was effective in accomplishing a specific goal, or that it was ill advised, or whatever, just asking if you've really felt its effect.

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:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

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:Sub70: 5-wood

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8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Please understand, I'm interested in understanding how this has worked so far.  From what I see here:

https://ncga.org/player-handbook/

In particular the Hard Card stating the conditions of competition, the 2016 Rules of Golf apply for this season's competitions.  The Equipment rules currently allow the use of pre-2010 grooves unless the conditions of competition require the newer grooves.  It seems possible that the highest level events would have additional requirements, but I don't see that conforming grooves are required in general.

But back to my question, has it really affected you?  Have you been required to buy new clubs to play in specific events?   I'm not trying to suggest that the rule was effective in accomplishing a specific goal, or that it was ill advised, or whatever, just asking if you've really felt its effect.

Nope, it has not affected me at all.  I didn't run out and buy new wedges as soon as I heard about the rule.  I just upgraded when it was time and I've been through several sets of conforming wedges now.  I can't tell any spin difference, it hasn't affected my scoring.  So it's had absolutely zero impact on me (or anyone else I know or play golf with).  It's been 8 years since the rule change.  I would venture to guess that anybody playing in the type of events that require conforming grooves is probably playing enough that they've had to upgrade wedges naturally over that time period as opposed to being force to purchase conforming wedges.

But that's kind of my whole point.  If a rule has no affect on performance and the only consequence is that a few people had to go out and buy new wedges, then what was the point of making that rule in the first place?  That's why the USGA screwed up with the groove rule.

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The groove ruled affected me more mentally than physically, I think.

It angered me quite a bit at the time.

 

The cartoonish, Fred Flintstone 460cc driver head was OK,.

and box grooves were not.

 

My attitude toward the USGA more or less firmed up to its permanent position around then.

When the time came that I had to leave the game, I left it feeling that the USGA

was basically a gaggle of buffoons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I still do not know whether my PE2's (mfg. date 1988) conform - I hear different opinions on that.  I don't play tournament events so from that standpoint it makes no difference.  It seems like a whole bunch of much to do over nothing.  If they are non-conforming and give me a slight advantage, that's just one more reason not to make the irons change I've been contemplating. 👍

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17 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

I still do not know whether my PE2's (mfg. date 1988) conform - I hear different opinions on that.  I don't play tournament events so from that standpoint it makes no difference.  It seems like a whole bunch of much to do over nothing.  If they are non-conforming and give me a slight advantage, that's just one more reason not to make the irons change I've been contemplating. 👍

PE2s are conforming.  The lawsuit PING won regarding this specific model of iron against the USGA made it so.  You are good with the PE2s.

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Didn’t effect me in the least.

And while Dave didn’t ask I will add that it did damage the USGAs reputation IMO because they did a poor job of communicating that it was not going to impact ordinary golfers. Lots of people that I know did run out and buy new equipment because they wanted to be conforming. I told them that I’d go through at least three sets of irons before 2024. I was wrong, I’m on set 5 already. This one should stick for a while though. :)


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40 minutes ago, revkev said:

I will add that it did damage the USGAs reputation IMO because they did a poor job of communicating that it was not going to impact ordinary golfers.

This is definitely the prevailing opinion, but I can say this.

If you sharpen your grooves sufficiently that you have to scrape shreds of urethane from them after the shot,

your being a very average player will not prevent you from seeing the difference in spin.

I was a pretty average player, and I experienced that first hand.

The excessive spin doesn't necessary help if you wind your ball back to the front edge of the green or beyond, however,

so it's just an academic statement.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, revkev said:

Didn’t effect me in the least.

And while Dave didn’t ask I will add that it did damage the USGAs reputation IMO because they did a poor job of communicating that it was not going to impact ordinary golfers. Lots of people that I know did run out and buy new equipment because they wanted to be conforming. I told them that I’d go through at least three sets of irons before 2024. I was wrong, I’m on set 5 already. This one should stick for a while though. 🙂

I actually did want to get the past opinions that we each hold about the USGA, and about this particular change in the rules, and get an idea of the actual impact of the rule change.  Now that a few folks have brought that up, I'll add my two cents.  I agree with @revkev on this, the issue is probably more one of perception than of reality.  I blame the USGA, of course, but also those who covered the rule change.  Golf publications are funded largely by advertising for the big equipment companies, and every manufacturer wanted to have golfers buying new "conforming" clubs right away.  Is it any wonder that the coverage highlighted the changes, and downplayed the timing?  Its quite possible that the rule will end up being totally ineffective, also possible that there wasn't that big a "problem" in the first place.  But the reality is that most people have yet to feel the effect of the rule changes.  Most people will never feel any impact, we'll have replaced our old "nonconforming" clubs due to normal wear and tear.

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@Dave I do think that OEMs took as much of a hit on the rule change as the USGA. After the fact what has hurt the USGA is that this one gets lumped in with the anchor ban and makes it seem as if they are out of touch with the ordinary golfer.

They may be but if you weigh the balance of what they do they are trying to help the game - they do need some help - some younger, fresher eyes


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5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

But back to my question, has it really affected you?  Have you been required to buy new clubs to play in specific events?   I'm not trying to suggest that the rule was effective in accomplishing a specific goal, or that it was ill advised, or whatever, just asking if you've really felt its effect.

It didn't affect me at all, because for a long time, I didn't adhere to either version of the rule. 

I had the grooves machined on already non-conforming Cleveland 588s and 691s and  Titleist DCI 962s.

Not by golf club people.   Just a regular local machine shop.

They'd never touched a golf club before in their lives.

My set ate covers with every shot, but I rarely passed on an opportunity to be rebellious. (I was a 60s kid.)

 

By the time I got new clubs (FW15s)

I was broken down before I could even get them dirty.

 

I was an idiot to buy the FW15s, anyway.

The big attraction was that they didn't have club numbers. Seriously.

I ought to sell them because they have no stories to tell,

but I'm just not into commerce.  I buy stuff only from retailers and don't sell anything ever

other than houses and sometimes but not always traded in cars.

I once, when living at the beach year round,  swapped a car for three years of driveway plowing.

 

If I had played with 2009 conforming grooves and 2010 conforming grooves,

everybody agrees that it wouldn't have made a difference for me.

I believe them.

 

 

 

I

 

 

 

 

 

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I can honestly say not one bit. I am a high spin player and the roll back on the grooves was actually beneficial to my game. I was playing events that required conforming grooves regularly when the rule changed and it was zero impact. I play with a lot of guys that play non-conforming gear and I can also say it makes zero difference in their game as well. I think more was made of this change than should have been.


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I always thought it was just a conspiracy to sell more golf clubs. Why does anyone have to change by 2024 anyways? No one can tell me what to play, you think they would be more concerned with people playing more golf. Use a shovel for all I care, just get out on the course.

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Yes.

 

I play greens that are hard and smallish. My X Forged MD 60 is a lifesaver. I bought 3 when they announced the rule. My last one is showing signs of now being just a regular daddy. I can no longer buy anything similar.

 

And yes from our greenside rough and small greens the newer wedges just don't spin as much.

 

I wish manufacturers were allowed to make the old grooves up to 3-4 years before the complete ban.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Groves patterns doesn’t really effects the spins as much as lofts of the club in dry condition. It makes a big difference in wet conditions depending on how much and how efficient the grove designs are in removing the wetness out of the way to maximize the face contact. 

Like driving on slick tires or all terrain tires at legal freeway speed, they both perform well in dry condition but one will shine in wet condition. 

It’s just another stupid rule.  I can put plenty of spin on my wedge and one of my ping eye2 I had refinished and put on extra large and deep square groves, aside for ugly scar it put on the balls, I can’t tell the difference and not zipping anything back off the green. 

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