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How do you feel about amateurs playing with no golf handicap? 

Golf is evolving and evolving fast. In short, golf is a large business which continues to grow globally. What is striking in the golf industry is the way Golf Governing bodies manage one of the world’s oldest sports and adapting to new challenges. The game, first played in 15th-century Scotland, isn’t known for keeping pace with changes or am I wrong?

I played in a huge charity event hosted by one of the golfing legends - team of 5 players - winning team scored 22 under par!  I've always been a fan of ditching handicaps altogether, then the problem is removed instantly or not?  These guys play on their own Tour, called SharkGolf but there's another old saying in golf: Beware the man whose golf pencil has an eraser or did somebody mention sand and bags?

To compete and be rewarded is part of the DNA of a golfer, do you have some alternatives for a handicap?

Take care

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Scramble tournaments bring out the absolute worst in people.

There is a charity event I play every year that sends two shotguns out on a Monday in June.

The less intense golfers play in the PM and we see our scramble scores are often 4-5 strokes lower. First place in the AM group is often -15.

The powers that be got it right in this event. First prize wins a $20 bottle of wine from the Finger Lakes. Nothing worth cheating over, an honest prize where the funds raised go where they’re supposed to go, the charity.

I’ve been witness to fights in the parking lot and grill room following claims of cheating. It’s golf, life is too short. I will never understand.


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handicaps serve a purpose when used in limited settings/environments.  It's a measure of your game, even if it's not used for tournament play.  It's also a way of making a match competitive when one golfer is a 6, and the other is a 16.  Handicaps generally work well when the players in the competition are known to the other competitors.  It's when I show up at a tournament with strangers and we're playing off of their handicap.  I've learned that using handicaps in this type of situation just encourages certain folks to cheat, which means that if money is on the line, they are simply stealing, which makes them thieves.

It's to that last point that I'll simply say that the only time I will play in a net event is if I know my competition personally.  Otherwise I will only play in competitive matches that are straight up, without strokes.  I've just experienced enough sandbagging in my life to let this be a hard and fast rule for me, and me alone.

I will also say that I'm disgusted by the number of senior golfers (aged 65 and up) who seem to thrive on sandbagging.  When you show up to a tournament and post a net 67 and/or 68 on the field, you are sandbagging, pure and simple.  Sadly, I've witnessed this over and over and over again to where now I will not play in net events once I reach 65 years old.  Shame on you seniors for lacking integrity and honesty.

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The large majority of golfers don’t carry a handicap so the game already has no handicaps and unless one is playing in an amateur competition there’s no need for hdcp.

its not a measure of ones game it’s a measure of ones potential and why ESC is used. 

Scrambles and events that use hdcps are always going to bring out cheaters and sandbaggers.  Unless it’s a tour like GC Am or some other tours where hdcps are based on scores from said tour it leaves the door open. 

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16 minutes ago, GSwag said:

I will also say that I'm disgusted by the number of senior golfers (aged 65 and up) who seem to thrive on sandbagging.  When you show up to a tournament and post a net 67 and/or 68 on the field, you are sandbagging, pure and simple.  Sadly, I've witnessed this over and over and over again to where now I will not play in net events once I reach 65 years old.  Shame on you seniors for lacking integrity and honesty.

Being a senior, I ask that you understand and accept that I may be a bit defensive here.   I have often asked if I am cheating with my handicap and universally have been advised that I am not.  Permit me to explain, its the handicap system, it ain't perfect.  At my age, I find that I play quite a bit with younger golfers, golfers that play the regular tees.  Since I am not comfortable being the only one playing from the senior tees, I will play with them from the regular tees.   If one goes to the handicap computer at most courses, one will find that the variance between the regular and senior tees is only 1 to 2 strokes.   However, I guess because distance is my problem, I can typically shoot 4 or more strokes better from the senior tees.   From the senior tees, par 4s tend to be par 4s as opposed to par 5s for me from the regular tees.  

In keeping with the rules, so to speak, I post all my scores even the ones played from regular tees as well as those played from the senior tees.  Because of my age (I'm 70), in many outings and tournaments, I get to use the senior tees.   Accordingly, because I post scores from the regular tees, my handicap from the senior tees may be 2 strokes too high if it were  based exclusively on my rounds played from the senior tees.   Because I know that may be the case, I have often asked if I am cheating and have been assured that I am not, that I am following the handicap rules and mandates.    

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12 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The large majority of golfers don’t carry a handicap so the game already has no handicaps and unless one is playing in an amateur competition there’s no need for hdcp.

its not a measure of ones game it’s a measure of ones potential and why ESC is used. 

Scrambles and events that use hdcps are always going to bring out cheaters and sandbaggers.  Unless it’s a tour like GC Am or some other tours where hdcps are based on scores from said tour it leaves the door open. 

I agree with you 100%.  I also understand that a handicap is about your potential, or as I call it - your playing ability. Just thought it will be great if we can play without it as I like to compete and also like to be rewarded when I played a good round.  

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22 minutes ago, TheWahoo said:

Being a senior, I ask that you understand and accept that I may be a bit defensive here.   I have often asked if I am cheating with my handicap and universally have been advised that I am not.  Permit me to explain, its the handicap system, it ain't perfect.  At my age, I find that I play quite a bit with younger golfers, golfers that play the regular tees.  Since I am not comfortable being the only one playing from the senior tees, I will play with them from the regular tees.   If one goes to the handicap computer at most courses, one will find that the variance between the regular and senior tees is only 1 to 2 strokes.   However, I guess because distance is my problem, I can typically shoot 4 or more strokes better from the senior tees.   From the senior tees, par 4s tend to be par 4s as opposed to par 5s for me from the regular tees.  

In keeping with the rules, so to speak, I post all my scores even the ones played from regular tees as well as those played from the senior tees.  Because of my age (I'm 70), in many outings and tournaments, I get to use the senior tees.   Accordingly, because I post scores from the regular tees, my handicap from the senior tees may be 2 strokes too high if it were  based exclusively on my rounds played from the senior tees.   Because I know that may be the case, I have often asked if I am cheating and have been assured that I am not, that I am following the handicap rules and mandates.    

So pleased to see that you still enjoy the game at age 70 and you are not defensive at all. 

I also understand that the h/c system is what it is, BUT I respectfully success that you deduct the strokes from your handicap when you compete in competitions.  If you are a 18 h/c, you can play from a 16 if you are sure your handicap is "2 strokes too high" - if you do this then you don't have to ask others if you are cheating!  Just my thoughts...

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54 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Scrambles and events that use hdcps are always going to bring out cheaters and sandbaggers.  Unless it’s a tour like GC Am or some other tours where hdcps are based on scores from said tour it leaves the door open. 

For several years, my buds and I played in the annual American Cancer Society team scramble tournaments.  In these tournaments, handicaps were only used to assign flights.  A team's flight was based singularly on the lowest handicap of any member of the team.   Because one of my buds played to a 5 handicap, we were assigned to the 1st or A flight; also the A flight teams had to play from the tips.   On one occasion, we played the local qualifier at a course near Ocean City, the Links at Lighthouse Sound.  This course had several tee shots over forced carries, really, really forced carries from the tips.  Like me at the time, one of my buds played to around a 15, so we just hit our tee shots to the ladies tees as safety valves.   My other bud was nearing a single digit, so he and the 5 cleared them with no problems.  Me and my other 15 bud, basically tagged along to hopefully contribute with short games or at times hit some really lucky shots.   One year we made it to the finals at Pinehurst.  It was a good weekend, because we got to play together and play #2, otherwise we were just participants.  

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1 hour ago, SharkGolf said:

How do you feel about amateurs playing with no golf handicap? 

Golf is evolving and evolving fast. In short, golf is a large business which continues to grow globally. What is striking in the golf industry is the way Golf Governing bodies manage one of the world’s oldest sports and adapting to new challenges. The game, first played in 15th-century Scotland, isn’t known for keeping pace with changes or am I wrong?

I played in a huge charity event hosted by one of the golfing legends - team of 5 players - winning team scored 22 under par!  I've always been a fan of ditching handicaps altogether, then the problem is removed instantly or not?  These guys play on their own Tour, called SharkGolf but there's another old saying in golf: Beware the man whose golf pencil has an eraser or did somebody mention sand and bags?

To compete and be rewarded is part of the DNA of a golfer, do you have some alternatives for a handicap?

Take care

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Without getting too much into the weeds and HDCP system and such. How would you and I compete without a handicap?

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24 minutes ago, SharkGolf said:

So pleased to see that you still enjoy the game at age 70 and you are not defensive at all. 

I also understand that the h/c system is what it is, BUT I respectfully success that you deduct the strokes from your handicap when you compete in competitions.  If you are a 18 h/c, you can play from a 16 if you are sure your handicap is "2 strokes too high" - if you do this then you don't have to ask others if you are cheating!  Just my thoughts...

I have actually done that on some occasions  when a handicap is just requested with no documentation requirement.   But many of the outings and tournaments I play through various golf associations, they simply go to the computer and get my handicap or I must submit a documented formal USGA approved handicap index. 

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9 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Without getting too much into the weeds and HDCP system and such. How would you and I compete without a handicap?

I simply don't know, but that's why I asked "do you have some alternatives for a handicap?" The same "loaded" handicappers always win!

 

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The Golf Handicap System does not measure your quality as a person. If an individual cheats at something as meaningless and trivial as Golf I cannot begin to imagine their behavior when life’s more serious dilemmas come knocking. If someone is sandbagging and all it costs me is bragging rights then so be it. I’ve yet to get out of the shower to find my “you know what” has grown because of a good round of Golf. However, If money or merchandise is on the line then it’s time for a big boy or big girl conversation.

 

I am a fan of the current handicap system. As a low single digit handicapper I enjoy the competition with others of all handicaps. Never have I thought to myself, “well you know technically I did beat you”. If I am playing a 22 handicap I know I have to beat ‘em by 21 strokes to win and I’m on it like two hobos on a hotdog. It’s a tremendous challenge and a way to share the experience with a wider variety of people.

 

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34 minutes ago, SharkGolf said:

I simply don't know, but that's why I asked "do you have some alternatives for a handicap?" The same "loaded" handicappers always win!

 

OK that makes sense. I have seen the handicap system as a problem for as long as I have played. In reality it is probably not the system its self, everyone knows the saying crap in crap out. The only solution that I have been able to come up with is policing at an individual level. What I mean is that you have to have individual groups police their own. It will never happen and unfortunately there will always be people that play on the dark side. 

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2 hours ago, bens197 said:

Scramble tournaments bring out the absolute worst in people.

 

I played in a scramble a couple of weeks ago, we shot -15 gross. We had 2 under 5 handicaps and 2 in the 10 range. We lost by 11 net. Which means we would have had to shot -26 gross. 🤣🤣

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We will all be seeing a new handicap system in 2020, and it will be the same throughout the world.  We've seen some of the features of the new system, but the single biggest feature that has yet to be released is the determination of which scores will be used.  In much of the world, your handicap is based primarily on scores from stroke-play competitions, scores entered by the tournament committee, not by the individual.  I'd love to see the 2020 worldwide system move in this direction, in order to decrease the potential for a dishonest player to manipulate his handicap.  In my experience, those dishonest players are relatively few, but they give the handicap system a bad reputation when its the individuals who deserve the bad rep.

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I played in a scramble a couple of weeks ago, we shot -15 gross. We had 2 under 5 handicaps and 2 in the 10 range. We lost by 11 net. Which means we would have had to shot -26 gross. 🤣🤣


Just silly.


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No handicaps, no level playing field. Do not see any other way. The game is supposed to be one of integrity. If you cheat it says more about you than the system. Post every score correctly and the system works. Everyone has that round or two outside their norm, both lower and higher. When that round is always lower and the handicap stays the same there is a problem. We police our group. When new guys come in and they always win the $$$ shooting 70s with a 15 index, they normally don’t stick around too long.



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Scrambles always seem to bring out some “not so honest” people...I used to play in a really big charity event that manages to get lots of great prizes donated to give away. After a few years where teams of guys that never seemed to break 90 when playing their own ball would turn in 21 or 22 under gross scores they made a big change......everyone plays and turns in their scores and they post all teams in order that they finish in....1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on...then they draw numbers to award prizes.....”here we have a dozen Pro V1’s per player......let’s draw a number.....ok the winners are the team that finished in 15th place.......next up is a new Callaway stand bag for each player......winners are the team that finished 5th.....and so on.

The first year they did it there were some pissed off people who never came back, more than likely the cheaters, but everybody seems to like it and the tournament has grown to morning and afternoon flights because of it.



We will all be seeing a new handicap system in 2020, and it will be the same throughout the world.  We've seen some of the features of the new system, but the single biggest feature that has yet to be released is the determination of which scores will be used.  In much of the world, your handicap is based primarily on scores from stroke-play competitions, scores entered by the tournament committee, not by the individual.  I'd love to see the 2020 worldwide system move in this direction, in order to decrease the potential for a dishonest player to manipulate his handicap.  In my experience, those dishonest players are relatively few, but they give the handicap system a bad reputation when its the individuals who deserve the bad rep.


The only problem I see with that is there are a lot of people that don’t play those type of events very often.



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Scrambles always seem to bring out some “not so honest” people...I used to play in a really big charity event that manages to get lots of great prizes donated to give away. After a few years where teams of guys that never seemed to break 90 when playing their own ball would turn in 21 or 22 under gross scores they made a big change......everyone plays and turns in their scores and they post all teams in order that they finish in....1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on...then they draw numbers to award prizes.....”here we have a dozen Pro V1’s per player......let’s draw a number.....ok the winners are the team that finished in 15th place.......next up is a new Callaway stand bag for each player......winners are the team that finished 5th.....and so on.

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I LOVE this idea.

Thanks for sharing.


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I played in a scramble a couple of weeks ago, we shot -15 gross. We had 2 under 5 handicaps and 2 in the 10 range. We lost by 11 net. Which means we would have had to shot -26 gross. 🤣🤣
beyond that being impossible without cheating, it's just insane how some people will cheat to win something like that.
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4 hours ago, TheWahoo said:

Being a senior, I ask that you understand and accept that I may be a bit defensive here.   I have often asked if I am cheating with my handicap and universally have been advised that I am not.  Permit me to explain, its the handicap system, it ain't perfect.  At my age, I find that I play quite a bit with younger golfers, golfers that play the regular tees.  Since I am not comfortable being the only one playing from the senior tees, I will play with them from the regular tees.   If one goes to the handicap computer at most courses, one will find that the variance between the regular and senior tees is only 1 to 2 strokes.   However, I guess because distance is my problem, I can typically shoot 4 or more strokes better from the senior tees.   From the senior tees, par 4s tend to be par 4s as opposed to par 5s for me from the regular tees.  

In keeping with the rules, so to speak, I post all my scores even the ones played from regular tees as well as those played from the senior tees.  Because of my age (I'm 70), in many outings and tournaments, I get to use the senior tees.   Accordingly, because I post scores from the regular tees, my handicap from the senior tees may be 2 strokes too high if it were  based exclusively on my rounds played from the senior tees.   Because I know that may be the case, I have often asked if I am cheating and have been assured that I am not, that I am following the handicap rules and mandates.    

I think this only really matters if you play most of your rounds of golf from the regular tees, then in tournaments you play from the senior tees. The handicap system uses the best 10 scores out of your last 20 rounds. It is highly doubtful that if you are only playing a handful of rounds from the regular set of tees that those scores are even used in regards to your handicap. If you establish your Hcp from the regular tees with the intent of keeping your Hcp up for when you play tourneys from the seniors tees, then it may be perceived as cheating from your playing partners. 

 

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47 minutes ago, TBT said:


The only problem I see with that is there are a lot of people that don’t play those type of events very often.

 

I agree entirely, it would be a huge change to the culture of handicaps in the USGA areas.  On one hand, golf clubs and public courses would adapt to offer more chances to play in qualifying competitions.  On the other, many players would choose not to keep USGA handicaps, but I'm certain that web-based services would step in for those players.  A handicap isn't intended to measure a player's progress, its intended to facilitate competition.  If the system changes to make competitions more fair, and more resistant to manipulation, that would be a good thing, IMO.

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To the OP, if you are playing in a charity scramble and handicaps are used, don’t play. I have never ever played in a charity scramble where handicaps are used, I’ve never heard of that before actually, if caps are used, good luck. 

I have played In a good many scramble events, and my team for instance, with all for people playing to around a 5, would routinely be around -17 under par we would lose most of the time, but the guys that were beating us were former high school and small college golfers who were around scratch. They would come in at -20 or so, which isn’t unreasonable if you think about it. A couple eagles, and with four scratch golfers, one of them will hit it close on just about every hole, they rarely make a par, its all birdies and and eagles for those guys. 

Handicaps in these types of events just invites cheating, since no one knows anyone really. 

Lefties are always in their Right Mind

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56 minutes ago, Kor.A.Door said:

I think this only really matters if you play most of your rounds of golf from the regular tees, then in tournaments you play from the senior tees. The handicap system uses the best 10 scores out of your last 20 rounds. It is highly doubtful that if you are only playing a handful of rounds from the regular set of tees that those scores are even used in regards to your handicap. If you establish your Hcp from the regular tees with the intent of keeping your Hcp up for when you play tourneys from the seniors tees, then it may be perceived as cheating from your playing partners. 

 

Course hdcp would come into play and if the tourney organizer is doing things the right way someone playing from senior teesepukd have their hdcp modified to reflect that 

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I remain amazed at the number of guys who encounter cheating in handicap events. BTW a random guy with an 18 in a field of 40 golfers shooting a net 67 does not mean that he was cheating. If it’s the same guy multiple times then there’s an issue but that’s what the handicap committee is there for.

 

I’ve played in a reasonable amount of golf tournaments - I only recall ever encountering 2 handicap “cheaters”. They were suspended from the Men’s group that I was a part of and all area clubs were warned about them by our Pro.

 

Someone is going to have a good day and win the net part of a handicap tournament. If it’s not me it doesn’t mean that someone was cheating. My turn or your turn will come if you play enough.

 

To the OP I don’t have an alternative and don’t see the need for one. There are always non handicap games, tournaments or groups to play in - I’ve been a part of those too. They’re fun if you’re a good enough player or the game can figure out a format that allows mid to higher handicappers to play and have a chance to contribute.

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Course hdcp would come into play and if the tourney organizer is doing things the right way someone playing from senior teesepukd have their hdcp modified to reflect that 

Yes, but he stated that the difference from the regular to the senior tees is 2 strokes to the course, and he said that he will score 4 shots better from the senior tees. That’s where the perception of cheating may come into play. Knowingly playing from a set of tees for regular play then switching in a tournament knowing that you have in a way sandbagged the course. It’s not “wrong” its just the perception of wrong, swiping at a putt in motion is a 2 stroke penalty, but it isnt wrong, according to many here that is completely wrong, even though the rules “address” the situation. In both cases the rules allow for them to happen, but it doesn’t necessarily make it the right thing to do. 

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10 minutes ago, Kor.A.Door said:

Yes, but he stated that the difference from the regular to the senior tees is 2 strokes to the course, and he said that he will score 4 shots better from the senior tees. That’s where the perception of cheating may come into play. Knowingly playing from a set of tees for regular play then switching in a tournament knowing that you have in a way sandbagged the course. It’s not “wrong” its just the perception of wrong, swiping at a putt in motion is a 2 stroke penalty, but it isnt wrong, according to many here that is completely wrong, even though the rules “address” the situation. In both cases the rules allow for them to happen, but it doesn’t necessarily make it the right thing to do. 

Would it be fair to say that I could probably shoot even par from the ladies tees if I wanted to, or be under par from those tees?  Or better yet, play the kiddie tees that are 300 out on a par 5 and see how you fare with that.

Honestly, I don't have a beef with the scenario being discussed here.  If he wants to play the regular tees during the week and then play the senior tees in tournaments, good for him if it helps him score better, which honestly, it should.  The tees have a course handicap slope and rating attached to it, so regardless of the tees you play, the slope and rating are adjusted to factor these sorts of things in, should it should be a wash for handicap.

However, I can tell you from my own personal game that there is a distinct advantage for me when I move up a tee or two.  As an example, there is a guy who is 70 years old, and hits it 260 off of the tee easily on average, and goes even par from the senior tees.  But you back him up a tee or two, and he's lucky to break 80.  Tee slope and rating aside, that's a huge advantage when you factor in handicaps in a tournament.  But like has already been mentioned above, this is within the rules and there isn't anything explicitly wrong with this.  It's just that technically you know what you are doing and you know you have a huge advantage, so you're taking advantage of a technicality for personal gain.  All I can say is that I hope I can still hit it 260 when I am 70 years old so I can see how this works for me.

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No handicap in our "Wolf" games here in Yuma.  Only rule is that one of the other players and I cannot choose each other as partners.  $0.10/hole brings out some serious levels of focus and intensity 🤣.

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8 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

No handicap in our "Wolf" games here in Yuma.  Only rule is that one of the other players and I cannot choose each other as partners.  $0.10/hole brings out some serious levels of focus and intensity 🤣.

Always love to have a bet or two - sounds like a lot of fun 💰

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