Must Read: GolfSpyT on Driver Face Thickness & Driver Innovation

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Tony posted a series of tweets yesterday and today that are filled with an incredible amount of information.  I thought it would be worth consolidating those tweets into a thread for informational purposes and discussion.

I find that listening to the Battle Hymn of the Republic while reading these tweets worked extremely well.

 

Regarding face thickness and CT:

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As OEMs start rolling out new 2019 product, face technology stories will be all the rage. Nothing wrong with clever marketing, but there are some details you may not be aware of.  Within the last couple of years, the USGA has made some procedural changes to how it measures.  The scope of CT testing was previously limited to the center of the face. That allowed OEMs to make other regions (high toe or example) hotter than face center. Most everyone had a version of the variable thickness story but the Goal was to raise off-center CT.  The USGA now tests across the  entire face, which means OEMs are now forced to bring CT down in off-center regions, effectively slowing portions of the face relative to previous releases. You can no longer have a CT of 245 in the center and 257+ elsewhere.  

Also keep in mind the limit is 239. Tolerances technically stretch to 257, but the USGA wants everyone at 239. There's still some wiggle room, but anything above 250 is going to raise unwanted eyebrows. The safe limit is closer to 245. When brands say "at the limit",  most mean 239-245. Any higher and manufacturing tolerances can get you into trouble. So, lipstick on a pig, they'll be some clever ways of putting a positive spin on what is really lipstick on a pig.  Pushing CT to the limit across nearly the whole of the face is no big thing, because in many cases, a healthy portion of the face was already over the limit. We're really talking about slowing things down comparatively. 

What matters more is an individual OEMs ability to consistently manufacturer close to their CT targets part after part after part. Some do that better than others. It's one of those things that costs a bit more.  With all of that said, here's two more things you shouldn't lose sight of.

1) Even if your CT is the same across 100% of the face, there is ALWAYS a ball speed penalty when impact isn't aligned with the center of gravity (sweet spot)T

2) The reality is that CT probably matters less than you've been led to believe. At 100 MPH with near perfect impact, 10 CT points are worth about 1/2 MPH of ball speed. That works out to +/- 1 yard based on altitude.

To give you some context on that, standard deviations of ball speed for better players are generally around 2 MPH, so, in the big picture, 10 CT points aren't really worth getting excited about. As long as CT is somewhere within the realm of good, you're good. Get fitted.

 

 

Regarding Driver Innovation:

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Random thought that popped into my head this morning. I still believe there's room for actual innovation in the driver category, but it's also true that the USGA has reduced wiggle room and is making it harder to make clubs longer. They definitely don't want more distance.

So that leaves manufacturers to work within the narrow confines of actual innovation, and/or the wider confines of perceived innovations and clever story-telling. The OEMs are certainly aware of what's happening in the fitting space. Specifically, we're seeing greater emphasis or perhaps greater buzz around Smash Factor or Efficiency as a key metric for fitters and something simple that the average golfer can eyeball when he's hitting on a big box launch monitor. 

But here's the thing...it's well-known within the industry and definitely within every R&D department in the industry that the most popular radar-based launch monitors don't consistently measure clubhead speed. Head speed measurements absolutely can and do vary based on the size and shape of the head. There are real and practical limits to Smash Factor (Dave Tutelman has written about this). Bottom line, in extensive testing we seldom see real values above 1.47. When you see values above 1.5 you can be absolutely certain it's nonsense but it happens because the launch monitor is under-clocking head speed by an appreciable number, so ball speed is super high relative to clubhead speed.  There are also cases where radar-based launch monitors overclock head speed and so you can have really good ball speeds with Smash Factors that are really low. Basically, for any system that can't consistently and accurately measure head speed, Smash Factor is a bad metric.

That brings me to my larger point. OEMs know this, and they probably have a good idea what head shapes trip up the monitor. So, it's theoretically possible to design a head that clocks slow and thereby produces higher SF, giving the illusion of better performance.  Not saying this is happening (yet), but with the walls closing in, OEMs will need find clever ways to show performance gains (real or otherwise). Designing to fool the machines (and less knowledgeable golfers) isn't outside the realm of possibility. Ball Speed is king. Always.

 

 

[PMookie]

Last time I went to Club Champion, they spoke extensively about how TrackMan cannot accurately detect club-head speed. Knowing that, it was impossible to therefore get an accurate smash. I had a number of 1.51 and 1.52 recordings, and some of those didn’t go as far as ones with similar swing speed and lower smash.

Funny thing is about TrackMan as well is the “all zeroes” that occur. Path, face angle, etc. One can have all zeroes and record a fade, a draw, and even a straight shot.... Yeah, no doubt that the OEMs know how to get some quality numbers in fittings, and I bet they head that direction. Their issue will be when folks get to the course and see NOTHING like what the saw in the fitting.

It’s going to be curious if places like Club Champion, Tour Spec, etc, end-up taking advantage of all of this, or somehow go the “honesty” route.....

 

 

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[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, PMookie said:

Last time I went to Club Champion, they spoke extensively about how TrackMan cannot accurately detect club-head speed. Knowing that, it was impossible to therefore get an accurate smash. I had a number of 1.51 and 1.52 recordings, and some of those didn’t go as far as ones with similar swing speed and lower smash.

Funny thing is about TrackMan as well is the “all zeroes” that occur. Path, face angle, etc. One can have all zeroes and record a fade, a draw, and even a straight shot.... Yeah, no doubt that the OEMs know how to get some quality numbers in fittings, and I bet they head that direction. Their issue will be when folks get to the course and see NOTHING like what the saw in the fitting.

It’s going to be curious if places like Club Champion, Tour Spec, etc, end-up taking advantage of all of this, or somehow go the “honesty” route.....

 

 

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This is why I prefer outdoor fittings. Can see the ball flight and those who want to compare numbers with ball flight can.

[Mr_Theoo]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

This is why I prefer outdoor fittings. Can see the ball flight and those who want to compare numbers with ball flight can.

I think the only problem with an outdoor fitting would be hitting range balls. Yea you can see a general ball flight but unless you’re hitting your own gamers you might still see something different on the course. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

41 minutes ago, Mr_Theoo said:

I think the only problem with an outdoor fitting would be hitting range balls. Yea you can see a general ball flight but unless you’re hitting your own gamers you might still see something different on the course. 

Not in my experience. Imo it would have to be really old range balls. Im picky about where I go to demo days or fittings to avoid said bad range balls 

[00sportsman]

Interesting stuff. Thanks, jlukes, for putting it all together. When that stuff is in tweets, I often miss some of it.

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[newballcoach]

Tony is the best. The things he knows about the golf club industry are unbelievable, and it's amazing that he is so honest and open all the time. Gives all of us spies a greater insight into what's going on. In short, he's smart, he's a bit fiery, and I'm glad he's ours.

 

Of course, sometimes I picture him like this... 

[cnosil]

Not in my experience. Imo it would have to be really old range balls. Im picky about where I go to demo days or fittings to avoid said bad range balls 

In general everything I have read indicates that even good range balls perform differently than premium balls. Shorter off driver, inconsistent with irons, and less wedge spin.

Although I have been at a private club that had NXT Tour practice balls on the range and pro V practice balls on the chipping green.

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

In general everything I have read indicates that even good range balls perform differently than premium balls. Shorter off driver, inconsistent with irons, and less wedge spin.

Although I have been at a private club that had NXT Tour practice balls on the range and pro V practice balls on the chipping green.

And with trackman it can be normalized to account for range balls which my old instructor and most of the fitters around here do so you get to see what the numbers are for a prov

[cnosil]

And with trackman it can be normalized to account for range balls which my old instructor and most of the fitters around here do so you get to see what the numbers are for a prov

Understand, but I would still be concerned about inconsistencies in actual performance and wonder if it was the launch monitor, club, or ball.

As long as the person doing the evaluation understands the constraints I think a fitting indoors or outdoors can provide good results. It is hard for a lot of us to get past the see it to believe it mentality.

[Golfspy_CG2]

16 hours ago, Mr_Theoo said:

I think the only problem with an outdoor fitting would be hitting range balls. Yea you can see a general ball flight but unless you’re hitting your own gamers you might still see something different on the course. 

 

15 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Not in my experience. Imo it would have to be really old range balls. Im picky about where I go to demo days or fittings to avoid said bad range balls 

I think we're both fortunate that the place your talking about has very well trained Trackman PGA pro and he uses ProV's or at the very least NXT's  if I recall correctly in hit fitting and lessons.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

27 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

Understand, but I would still be concerned about inconsistencies in actual performance and wonder if it was the launch monitor, club, or ball.

As long as the person doing the evaluation understands the constraints I think a fitting indoors or outdoors can provide good results. It is hard for a lot of us to get past the see it to believe it mentality.

 

The mind is a weird thing and it can play tricks.

im not against indoor fittings but I would lean towards a facility that uses gc2 of quad.  

For me I’ve seen similar numbers in trackman using range balls outside and prov1 during indoor lessons.

With golf especially on the course having so many variables it’s not a true apples to apples comparison imo between fittings and the course.  My goal in a fitting is to ensure the combo I go with optimizes launch characteristics and maximizes both carry and roll out with driver. For irons it’s about carry and stopping power

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

 

I think we're both fortunate that the place your talking about has very well trained Trackman PGA pro and he uses ProV's or at the very least NXT's  if I recall correctly in hit fitting and lessons.  

Yes we are. We also have the luxury of some other reputable indoor and outdoor fitting places as well as oem reps that are top notch.

[Golfspy_CG2]

6 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Yes we are. We also have the luxury of some other reputable indoor and outdoor fitting places as well as oem reps that are top notch.

yeah, along those lines.  I urge anyone to go to one of the Titleist Ball Fittings if they pop up in your area, you get to outdoor shots with a driver, 7 iron an wedge with ProV's on trackman.  That will give you a very good idea of everything you need to know...both from a club and ball standpoint. 

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With a lot of new equipment being announced this month, this thread needs a bump

[GolfSpy BOS]

Excellent info, thanks for sharing! I wish I could force all of my friends to read this before they go club shopping for the next 17 yards.


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10 minutes ago, B.Boston said:

Excellent info, thanks for sharing! I wish I could force all of my friends to read this before they go club shopping for the next 17 yards.


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Ain't that the truth.