Golf Digest - Responds To MyGolfSpy Article

[GolfSpy_X]

If you have not yet read my article about the 2011 Golf Digest Hot List...you can read it here: http://www.mygolfspy...igest-hot-list/

 

Here is Golf Digest's response to the article: http://www.golfdiges...ond-to-rea.html

 

===============================

 

We held back releasing more information about the "Hot List" and how they operate but maybe we should release the other information as well.

[hendricks97]

does this guy really think we believe a word he says? Hes been full of crap in pretty much everything of his Ive ever read

[Moecat]

GD's response is kind of analagous to this ...

 

 

Maybe GD just "accidentally" accepts money for advertising ...

[Dave]

What else can he actually say, as much we'd like for him to come out say "we just pulled these ranking out of a$$, to keep advertiser's happy" it ain't gonna happen.

[jamo]

GD's response is kind of analagous to this ...

 

 

 

Maybe GD just "accidentally" accepts money for advertising ...

 

Or they just "misremembered."

[Miboy62]

Can Golf Digest list how much money ea manufacture spent in advertisement in their magazine?

[JBones]

Moe, I was thinking the exact same while I was reading that.

[Pickerjohn]

When you consider the 25% that the demand catagory

gets, then it pretty easy to see the results coming

up from a less than level playing firld. What part of a clubs

worth to the consumer (other than resale value)does "demand"

play? Leave out that 25% and you got a level playing field test.

I actually hope GD keeps offering the tests, and best of luck

to them, but get it evened out.

[Matt Saternus]

Pathetic. Please release all the info you've got about the Hot List so that it might be put out of its misery.

[Addicted2Golf]

Last year, I posted an article on A2G:The Golf Digest Hot List is a Joke (And We're Not Laughing)

 

The indictment from Tom Wishon really opened my eyes. I later got contacted by Mike Stachura's assistant letting me know that Mike "wanted to talk to me". I said "sure" and gave her my information but he never followed through.

[reg]

Depends on the people they get to test as well, many of the testers would be brand biased. With no structure that each tester has to hit each club with 10 balls the fan boy of a certain manufacturer will rate that company high.

 

Demand is just a stupid category.

 

Then the advertising dollars come into play......

 

I think you should tell all, exposing them will force them to change and become more transparent.

[Tony Covey MGS]

Perhaps we should thank them for the plug, but I can't agree with their contention that we (actually GolfSpyX) suggests:

"major manufacturers have direct input and control and even change the Hot List"

I've read the MGS response several times over, and at no time was manufacturer direct control suggested. The question at the heart of our post is simply, What's the point of the medal system when everybody gets gold or silver?

Of course, in my comment on the original post, I did question the validity (or actual existence of a scoring system) where practically everything "tested" is above average. Quite frankly, if instead of presenting their information as some sort of pseudo review with medals, awards, and whatnot (for everyone), they simple presented it as the 2011 equipment guide, I can't imagine nearly as many people would take issue with it.

Regarding smaller companies being left of the list...I have no direct knowledge, and I'm certainly not the type of person to call a complete stranger a liar. So I'll take Mike at his word and simply say that it's unfortunate that some smaller companies elect not to participate. We have the same issue here, and in fact some larger companies occasionally choose not to participate with what we do. I don't always know why that is, but I'm guessing OEMs who are accustomed to receiving a bagload of gold medals, don't like seeing a final score of 85, or finishing middle of the pack when we do head to head reviews.

If they're giving awards, they should give only 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze for each category (defined anyway they see fit). At the Olympics not everyone who shows up gets a gold or silver medal, and I think an golf club award system should work the same way.

@reg RE: "demand is a stupid category"

In principle I couldn't agree more. That said, having witnessed firsthand time and time again what we call brandwashing, which I think is at the core of the demand category (how much "buzz"

When we have testers hit clubs (particularly when they hit several brands in a single session), there is simply no overcoming biases (both positive and negative) when they tell us which clubs they would most likely ultimately purchase. TaylorMade guys want the TaylorMade drivers regardless of what our numbers say. Anti-Nike guys want anything but, even if they Nike produces the best numbers. It strikes directly at the heart of what MGS is about, and proves we have a long way to go as far as educating golfers that the logo on the bottom of their driver is not a guarantee of superior performance.

 

 

[Tony Covey MGS]

I couldn't help myself...

 

My response to the GD response is in the comments:

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/blogs/golf-editors/2011/01/hot-list-judges-respond-to-rea.html

[03trdblack]

Wouldn't it be great if the Hot List was treated like Consumer Reports treats their ratings? This would mean that Golf Digest would have to go out and actually purchase all of their test clubs instead of relying on companies to send them. The hard part is the actual testing as different equipment fits different people better than others. There are too many variables in people's body types, swings, look preferences, brand loyalty, etc. The only way to remove those variables would be to test all of the equipment on a robot machine that produces the same repeatable swing and compare the numbers data side by side. Only then do you have a starting point. Then you have to decide how much YOU swing like that robot to see if that club would produce similar results for you. In all likelihood, probably not.

 

I agree with those that think it should be treated and labeled as an equipment showcase/guide instead of an "awards" presentation and ranking structure.

[jamo]

The comments about how everyone gets golf and silver and Consumer Reports made me think of something. have you ever read video game ratings on, say, ign.com? Almost every single game gets between 7 and 9. Above 9 is for hugely popular and high selling games, like Halo 3. Below 7 is just absolute crap, games that they couldn't give away. Now, if a reader didn't know that, and they see a game rated 7 out of 10, that's pretty good, average by most scales. But on ign.com, 7 is terrible, not worth buying. The Hot List is a lot like that, I think, because everyone gets at least a silver.

 

Consumer Reports is the exact opposite. They aren't scared to give the highest rated product in a category a 65 (out of 100) and they won't hesitate to not recommend the iPhone 4 because of the signal problems.

[Tony Covey MGS]

I'm not sure that the grading scale matters, as long as there is one. Giving GD the benefit of the doubt, I suppose there could have been two dozen clubs that finished below average (or their silver medal line), so they tossed them without comment. Considering how dependent they are on advertising (realities are what they are), it's certainly a safer play than saying " finished near the bottom and here's why..."

 

You can define average as anything you like. On our subjective surveys we qualify "average" as a 6 or 7 out of 10. In most cases, however, testers generally rate clubs in the 8-9 range. If we end the discussion there, then almost everything we test is above average (and this seems to be where the Hot List ends the discussion). More than anything it probably speaks to the enthusiasm testers feel towards new gear.

 

To get a true sense of where clubs really rank (subjectively anyway), however, you have to take a step further and figure out what the true average is (what's the actual average based on the scores). What I've found is that the true average is usually in the 8.5-8.8 range. Which means only something scoring above 9 is truly above average. Of course, we also encounter the occasional hater who will score something as low as a 2 or 3 just because he has a brand bias. You have to account for that too.

 

All of that said, we seldom see the same score twice when we test clubs, which is why, for me, having so many clubs finish on top doesn't make any sense. It's not like there are 8 teams that will each win the superbowl this year.

[Manavs]

I couldn't help myself...

 

My response to the GD response is in the comments:

http://www.golfdiges...ond-to-rea.html

 

T -

Thats a great response - its exactly my issue with the "cold list". its turned into a PTA mom's idea of little league where everyone gets a medal for participation. UGH!!!!!!!!!!!! cmon - rank them in order, or a score out of 100 - seriously change it up. i stopped taking them seriously many years ago.

[One Putt]

If you have not yet read my article about the 2011 Golf Digest Hot List...you can read it here: http://www.mygolfspy...igest-hot-list/

 

Here is Golf Digest's response to the article: http://www.golfdiges...ond-to-rea.html

 

===============================

 

We held back releasing more information about the "Hot List" and how they operate but maybe we should release the other information as well.

[One Putt]

I have watched the Hot List over the years and am disappointed in what it has become. There really isn't any information in the February Hot list that couldn't have been received 2 months earlier from other internet sources and that includes who the winners were going to be. There was no evaluation of how the shafts work with the heads for customization, there was no mention of other new products, no comparison of even winning models. Their star system is meaningless. I want to be WOWed with something that I don't already know that would help me make a buying decision. If Golf Digest is going to call this "uncensored" than it should also give the bad news as well. What exactly did they say negative about any of the products? If this is "a full body scan" then the patient is terminal and doesn't know it. Golf Spy is right on with their comments and evaluations except for not going far enough.

[gdiddy]

Of course they are going to say advertising dollars have nothing to with their judgement why is that a shock?

I really looked forward to the "Hot List" and was completely disappointed. They didn't even review balls.

If they really wanted to do a good list it would have been from equipment from all over the world and given unbiased report. Kinda like what we get here.

I dont think I will be subscribing to GD any longer

[hendricks97]

The best (and only honest) evaluation they have ever done was one with the balls a few years ago where they listed all the spin rates and density and actual facts. This is the standard they should use for all lists and reviews

[Matt Saternus]

The best (and only honest) evaluation they have ever done was one with the balls a few years ago where they listed all the spin rates and density and actual facts. This is the standard they should use for all lists and reviews

 

I had a customer ask me why they stopped doing this about a month ago. I told him the magazine's advertisers probably didn't like it because when you list facts, not everyone can be #1.

[GolfSpy_X]

I am pretty certain the guys that did that test are my guys from GolfBallSelector.com. They do most of the ball testing for everyone.

[BIG STU]

I would say as one member suggested that for un-biased evaluation a machine such as the "Iron Byron" should be used. But in my opinion with so many shaft combinations It could really hard to pick the best overall combination without extensive research. I know personally I have been experimenting with a Wishon 949 MC for a year or so with at least 8 different shafts and I have not hit a combo that works for me yet as good as my current driver. I am fortunate I have access to a frequency machine and shafts. My suggestion is probably old school. I look to see how a club looks to my eye and how it feels when I pick it up and judge it from there. I do play by feel and the things I get shown on a launch monitor I usually have figgured out in my own way. A friend of my is one of the best club builders on the beach and has a thriving business. It amazes him that I can pick up a club and can tell the swing weight and look at a club and can tell the loft within a half degree or so. I did say degree not the number on the bottom which does not mean squat these days. Some say I am gifted but I say I am old school because I know at least a dozen guys my age that can do that as good or better than I. Just my 2 cents worth

[Shambles]

I would say as one member suggested that for un-biased evaluation a machine such as the "Iron Byron" should be used. But in my opinion with so many shaft combinations It could really hard to pick the best overall combination without extensive research. I know personally I have been experimenting with a Wishon 949 MC for a year or so with at least 8 different shafts and I have not hit a combo that works for me yet as good as my current driver. I am fortunate I have access to a frequency machine and shafts. My suggestion is probably old school. I look to see how a club looks to my eye and how it feels when I pick it up and judge it from there. I do play by feel and the things I get shown on a launch monitor I usually have figgured out in my own way. A friend of my is one of the best club builders on the beach and has a thriving business. It amazes him that I can pick up a club and can tell the swing weight and look at a club and can tell the loft within a half degree or so. I did say degree not the number on the bottom which does not mean squat these days. Some say I am gifted but I say I am old school because I know at least a dozen guys my age that can do that as good or better than I. Just my 2 cents worth

 

I'm much the same way. I need a hands on to go for a club and need to buy it and use it a while to decide if it's right for my bag. Tests are just something to read when I have the time.

 

The Iron Byron thing was actually used regularly some 20 years ago, or maybe less. Thing is, manufacturers were adjusting the machine to favor their product so the results were not reliable. They use people now and I doubt they are all that accurate or reflective of my skill level so I rely on the hands on eyeball approach. Old school, but it works for me.

 

 

Shambles

[GolfSpy_X]

Any one have any info on an older golf magazine called "Peterson's Golf"?

 

The reason I ask is because after the Golf Digest article I have gotten quite a few emails from employees at golf club companies a few being from current CEO's and ex CEO's. One of which had the following to say which peaked my interest about the "Peterson's Golf" magazine. Would love to take a look at some of the editions to see what it was all about:

Great article on Golf Digest " Hot List ". I read the

readers comments---very interesting what they had to say.

 

Golf Digest was one of the very best Golf Magazines

years ago! I remember how excited all of us in the Golfing

community were when it was time for the new edition to hit

the news stand. I personally feel the magazine has lost all

of its luster of the past.

 

I was one of the larger advertising accounts at Golf Digest

years ago when I was CEO ________. The account

managers and the writers at Golf Digest would bend over backwards to

keep me happy.

 

There was a publication called Peterson's Golf that you could

not influence editorial with a threat to cutting off advertising.

I had a lot of respect for their management.

They eventually cut off the Golf Publication, what a loss for the

Golfing community. They were a division of the very successful

Peterson magazine publishing empire.

 

I bet Golf Digest is very upset with you!

[Manavs]

I remember that mag - may even have an old copy stashed in a pile at my folks house. i remember they were great in reviews thats about it though sorry -

[JohnBarry]

Did GD delete you post, I didn't see it. I also posted.

[Moecat]

Did GD delete you post, I didn't see it. I also posted.

 

You're right ... Golfspy T's post - which was originally the first one made after GD's retort - is no longer there.

 

GD obviously can't take the heat, which makes one wonder why they're in the kitchen to begin with?

[GolfSpy_X]

They did not delete it...you just have to click on the "previous comments" link at the bottom of the comments page.