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I thought I heard that MGS was going to test leaving the flagstick in the hole, but Dave Pelz did this 10 years ago with his conclusion that the data says to leave the flagstick in.  If the MGS test is coming, it had better be soon because it's the news of the day now.  
My question is if Pelz has data to say that leaving the flagstick in is a benefit, why would the USGA make this new rule unless they wanted to give pros an advantage?  Yes, it will likely speed up the game for us hackers, but I don't see that happening for pros and high level ams.  Did they not reach out for information on the effects of leaving it in?  Did they not do their own testing?  

They did the testing, probably crunching numbers. Some of their social media responses to Justin Thomas saying it just looks silly and won’t leave the flag in implies that leaving the flag in will have benefits and Justin may need to change his tune.

Bryson is leaving the pin in in Hawaii and putting quite well. Was all the discussion with the talking heads last night and how more pros will start leaving the stick in.

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Interesting note... Bryson led the field in Strokes Gained:Putting in Round 1 with the flag thing. Worth watching
I was watching the re-run of the first round this morning and noticed he didn't leave it in for every putt. It made me wonder if it was because of the wind or if he calculates on the fly whether he thinks it will be advantageous to him or not?

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8 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

I was watching the re-run of the first round this morning and noticed he didn't leave it in for every putt. It made me wonder if it was because of the wind or if he calculates on the fly whether he thinks it will be advantageous to him or not?

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Probably wind, but also I assume distance plays a part too, uphill/downhill and grain as well. Dude has all the variables crunched.

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Was excited to watch the PGA get back after it. Not so sure I can ever get used to watching them putt with the flag in.


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The drop from the knee height jus looks silly. Or at least the Skratch golf version of it I watched did.



I forget what player it was but someone almost goofed that one up yesterday. Almost dropped from shoulder height which is apparently a penalty.


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39 minutes ago, Jmikecpa said:

Was excited to watch the PGA get back after it. Not so sure I can ever get used to watching them putt with the flag in.

It wasn't THAT long ago that it was legal, 1968 it changed.  We've gotten used to seeing a LOT of different stuff since then.

1 minute ago, Jmikecpa said:

I forget what player it was but someone almost goofed that one up yesterday. Almost dropped from shoulder height which is apparently a penalty.

 

 

Its not a penalty if you correct it before you hit your shot.  And back to the previous thing about getting used to stuff, I remember when we had to drop over our shoulder.  When that rule changed, dropping from shoulder height with your arm to the side or in front looked really weird.  I do agree that the knee-high drop looks a little awkward, and felt funny when I played on Sunday.

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Some Titleist equipment and staffer news regarding Round 1, via Press Release from Titleist

 

TITLEIST TOUR NOTES FOLLOWING THE FIRST ROUND OF THE 2019 SENTRY TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS 

The first round of 2019 is in the books at the PGA TOUR's Sentry Tournament of Champions and the momentum continues into the new year for the Titleist brand and the players that trust it. 

Equipment Counts:   
> Of the 33-player field at the Plantation Course at Kapalua on Maui, Titleist is the top choice in golf balls (18), drivers (9t), fairway metals (12), hybrids (7), irons (8) and wedges (47). 
> There are also nine (9) Scotty Cameron putters in play, according to Darrell Survey. 
> The NEW Titleist Pro V1x is the most played individual golf ball model with 5, and more than all of any other competitors total ball count of 4. 
> Eight of the nine Titleist drivers in play are either the new TS2 or TS3 models. 

Tway on Top: 
> Topping the leaderboard is Kevin Tway, who fired a sizzling 7-under par 66 despite feeling under the weather. 
> Among the equipment in Tway's new Titleist staff bag is the Pro V1 golf ball, a new TS3 driver (9.5) and fairway metal (15.0), and Vokey Design SM7 sand (54.08) and lob (60.10) wedges. 
> Tway is gaming the new metals for the first time in competition, and his performance included a 392-yard drive. 

Tway's Transition to Titleist: 
> Tway is one of several players who transitioned to the Titleist golf ball shortly after they had the opportunity as golf ball free agents beginning in late 2016. 
> He was ranked 552nd in the world and on the Web.com Tour in August of 2016 when he made the switch to the Pro V1 from a competitive golf ball at the Price Cutter Charity Championship. 
> He entered this week at No. 89 and his ranking should rise even higher following this week's event. 
> Tway earned his first career PGA TOUR title at the Safeway Championship last October to open the 2018-19 season and qualify for the Sentry Tournament of Champions. 

JT at T2: 
> Tied for 2nd after the first round is Titleist Brand Ambassador Justin Thomas, who switched from his golf career reliance on the Titleist Pro V1x to a Pro V1 this week. 
> Thomas worked closely with Titleist tech reps during the off season and settled on a Pro V1 from the Pro V1x he had played throughout his decorated junior, collegiate and professional careers. 
> Watch JT's golf ball testing process at his home club in Florida:  https://youtu.be/l9PoFAhUz1E 
> Thomas closed with five back nine birdies on Thursday to finish in a three-way tie at 6-under 67. 
> Like Tway, Thomas also places his trust off the tee to the new TS3 (9.5) driver and finished T2 in Driving Accuracy (93.3) by hitting 14 of 15 fairways in regulation. 
> That statistic set him up into topping the field in Greens in Regulation (17 of 18/94.4%) and Putts per Greens in Regulation (1.706). 
> Thomas' clinical short game includes three new Vokey Design SM7 (46, 52, 56) wedges that he is also playing for the first time in competition. 

> What's in Justin Thomas' Titleist Bag?: Pro V1 golf ball, TS3 (9.5) driver, TS3 (15.0) fairway metal, 915Fd (18.0) fairway metal, 718 AP2 3-iron, 718 MB (5-9), new Vokey Design SM7 pitching (46.10), gap (52.12) and sand (56.14) wedges and SM6 lob (60.12) wedge, Scotty Cameron X5 putter 

> Patton Kizzire secured the first hole-in-one of the 2019 calendar year, the first of his PGA TOUR career, and the first for the NEW Pro V1x golf ball, acing the 186-yard 8th hole with his 718 MB 7-iron. 
> Kizzire has already won once in Hawaii, qualifying for this year's event by capturing the 2018 SONY Open. He currently stands in a six-way tie for 6th after firing a first round 4-under par 69. 
> Kizzire is coming off a victory at the QBE Shootout in December, where he teamed with fellow Titleist Brand Ambassador Brian Harman for a one-shot win at the Challenge season event. 
> Both players put the NEW Pro V1 (Harman) and NEW Pro V1x (Kizzire) into play for the first time at the QBE. 
> Quoting Kizzire: “I said I'm going to hit 7-iron and work it (the New Pro V1x) with the wind. I didn't really know what to tell it, I told it to go but it was perfect and it just hopped and just boom.” 

> What's in Patton Kizzire's Titleist Bag?: NEW Pro V1x, TS3 (10.5) driver, 917F2 (15.0) fairway metal, 913H (19.0) hybrid, 718 T-MB 4-iron, 718 CB (5-6) and 718 MB (7-9) irons, Vokey Design SM7 pitching (48.10), gap (52.12), sand (56.08) and lob (60.08) wedges, Scotty Cameron GoLo putter. 

CH3 Makes it Official ... and so does Merritt 
> While Charles Howell III's victory at the RSM Classic brought the PGA TOUR 2018 regular season calendar year to an end, he accomplished it with a brand new Titleist golf ball and bag full of Titleist equipment. Golf's worst kept secret is now official, as Titleist can proudly introduce its newest full product line brand ambassador. 
> Howell became the first PGA TOUR player to win with the NEW Pro V1 when he played it for the first time in competition at RSM. 
> His equipment this week remained exactly the same as his winning What's in the Bag from the RSM Classic, including:  New Pro V1 golf ball,  TS3 (10.5) driver, TS2 (15, 21) fairway metals, 718 T-MB 4-iron, 718 AP2 (5-7) irons, 718 CB (8-PW) irons, Vokey Design SM7 gap (52.12), sand (56.08) and lob (60.08) wedges. 

> Troy Merritt has been a longtime Titleist golf ball player, but, like Kevin Tway, has transitioned into the new Titleist TS3 (9.5) driver for the first time this week ... and more for 2019. 
> Merritt, who qualified for the Sentry Tournament of Champions by virtue of his victory at the Barbasol Championship, is playing the NEW Titleist Pro V1 golf ball. He is playing the following Titleist golf clubs for the first time this week:  TS3 (9.5) driver, 818H2 (19.0) hybrid, 718 MB 3/5 and 718 AP2 (6-PW) irons, and Vokey Design SM7 gap (50), sand (54) and lob (58) wedges. 

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I thought I heard that MGS was going to test leaving the flagstick in the hole, but Dave Pelz did this 10 years ago with his conclusion that the data says to leave the flagstick in.  If the MGS test is coming, it had better be soon because it's the news of the day now.  
My question is if Pelz has data to say that leaving the flagstick in is a benefit, why would the USGA make this new rule unless they wanted to give pros an advantage?  Yes, it will likely speed up the game for us hackers, but I don't see that happening for pros and high level ams.  Did they not reach out for information on the effects of leaving it in?  Did they not do their own testing?  


Pelz’s research is at least 20 years old and it was for shots Friday m off the green.

The USGAs purpose was to speed play up. If there’s advantage to leaving the flag stick in that would be an unintended consequence.

I remember when it was legal so it’s actually reversing a rule change from the 60’s.

Dave P’s point is well taken. I’m sure the Tours will regret this new rule and try to take it away. I hope they fail. I intend to keep the flag in for everything over 10 feet.




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33 minutes ago, revkev said:

 


Pelz’s research is at least 20 years old and it was for shots Friday m off the green.

The USGAs purpose was to speed play up. If there’s advantage to leaving the flag stick in that would be an unintended consequence.

I remember when it was legal so it’s actually reversing a rule change from the 60’s.

Dave P’s point is well taken. I’m sure the Tours will regret this new rule and try to take it away. I hope they fail. I intend to keep the flag in for everything over 10 feet.




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Pelz did his in 1990

 

I believe in reality this rule will actually slow down play. Instead of taking the flag out once per hole and replacing it there is the potential for numerous pin pulling and replacing. One guy wants it in the next guy wants it out. 

 

Everything I have seen and heard is that 95% of the time leaving the pin in will help. There are instances when this is not the case but they are far fewer than the advantage gained. So why did the USGA state when they made the rule change that there is no advantage to leaving the flag in? Also if there is truly an advantage does the USGA come up with a standard flag stick diameter to mediate advantage?

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25 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Pelz did his in 1990

I believe in reality this rule will actually slow down play. Instead of taking the flag out once per hole and replacing it there is the potential for numerous pin pulling and replacing. One guy wants it in the next guy wants it out. 

Everything I have seen and heard is that 95% of the time leaving the pin in will help. There are instances when this is not the case but they are far fewer than the advantage gained. So why did the USGA state when they made the rule change that there is no advantage to leaving the flag in? Also if there is truly an advantage does the USGA come up with a standard flag stick diameter to mediate advantage?

I've heard that Pelz will be releasing new information in the next month or two.  Even his older research was done with a "roller", he wasn't looking at balls that were bounding, just at different rolling speeds.  If MGS is indeed studying this, and Pelz is doing more work, that would make 4 or 5 new studies underway.  I think we'll know a lot more before too long.

For speed of play, I think after we're all adjusted to the change, there won't be a big difference.  In the short term, I agree, differing choices may have the flag going in and back out and back in and.... on a lot of holes.

As for what the USGA will do, I don't know.  They're on record as saying that the change will have no effect, so research showing a statistical effect might make them rethink the change.  and there IS a standard for flagsticks, no greater than 0.75 inches diameter, from the base to at least 3 inches above the green surface.

And I'm with @revkev, I'll leave it in most of the time, for as long as I'm allowed to do that.

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10 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I've heard that Pelz will be releasing new information in the next month or two.  Even his older research was done with a "roller", he wasn't looking at balls that were bounding, just at different rolling speeds.  If MGS is indeed studying this, and Pelz is doing more work, that would make 4 or 5 new studies underway.  I think we'll know a lot more before too long.

For speed of play, I think after we're all adjusted to the change, there won't be a big difference.  In the short term, I agree, differing choices may have the flag going in and back out and back in and.... on a lot of holes.

As for what the USGA will do, I don't know.  They're on record as saying that the change will have no effect, so research showing a statistical effect might make them rethink the change.  and there IS a standard for flagsticks, no greater than 0.75 inches diameter, from the base to at least 3 inches above the green surface.

And I'm with @revkev, I'll leave it in most of the time, for as long as I'm allowed to do that.

Wouldn't you think that before they released this rule for play that the USGA would have done studies or had them done to prove that leaving it in has little or not effect?  They had plenty of time!  Clearly, the rule was changed in the '60s for some reason... most likely because they found that it was an advantage to leave it in.  Why else would they do it?

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Great.  It looks like Mr. “I am Too good to explain things to you” “you wouldn’t understand” is only mastering his science more.  Perfect.  Another year of terrible pressers, and pouty attitude when he is off.  Wonder if he will throw the entire bag down the range at the open this time.

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Getting back to the tournament I’m seeing lots of different shots. Course is set up perfectly IMO


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He's wearing the WS logo on his hat proudly


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“Stimp meter readings on the Plantation Course are about as relevant as driving accuracy stats on tour.” Mark Rolfing - have to love that quote.

 

 

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Its not a penalty if you correct it before you hit your shot.  And back to the previous thing about getting used to stuff, I remember when we had to drop over our shoulder.  When that rule changed, dropping from shoulder height with your arm to the side or in front looked really weird.  I do agree that the knee-high drop looks a little awkward, and felt funny when I played on Sunday.


I was not born until the 70’s so all I know is flag out :)


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40 minutes ago, Jmikecpa said:

 


I was not born until the 70’s so all I know is flag out :)


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'69 myself, and same here, ditto.

But this "flag-in" rule to me has all the earmarks of being a rule that to me, mean that will quickly go away...Especially as far as the "Tour" is concerned. Too many flaws and things I think will be interpreted as "illegal" soon enough as soon as the abuse of this comes about. And I know it will be abused to the players' advantage. I have nothing to base that on, so simply call it a "hunch".

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Rory, he’s due.


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'69 myself, and same here, ditto.

But this "flag-in" rule to me has all the earmarks of being a rule that to me, mean that will quickly go away...Especially as far as the "Tour" is concerned. Too many flaws and things I think will be interpreted as "illegal" soon enough as soon as the abuse of this comes about. And I know it will be abused to the players' advantage. I have nothing to base that on, so simply call it a "hunch".

 

I’m curious what “abuse” of the rules would be? If I’m permitted to leave the stick in or take it out neither is an abuse. Likewise if I’m entitled to relief and take it?

 

The new rules seem to me to be an attempt to reflect what actually happens on the golf course among golfers. If it looks strange to see pros doing these things it’s because most of us weren’t exactly playing by the rules - please note that I wrote “most” not all. :)

 

 

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Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

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It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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1 hour ago, revkev said:

I’m curious what “abuse” of the rules would be? If I’m permitted to leave the stick in or take it out neither is an abuse. Likewise if I’m entitled to relief and take it?

The new rules seem to me to be an attempt to reflect what actually happens on the golf course among golfers. If it looks strange to see pros doing these things it’s because most of us weren’t exactly playing by the rules - please note that I wrote “most” not all. 🙂

I'm with you, I just don't see how this rule can be "abused".  And I'm not sure what "flaws" are there in the rule itself, its really a very simple rule.

Having said that, I still wouldn't be surprised if the USGA/R&A will review the new studies that are sure to be released, and at least considering returning to the previous flagstick rules if those studies show a real advantage to leaving the flagstick in.

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I'm with you, I just don't see how this rule can be "abused".  And I'm not sure what "flaws" are there in the rule itself, its really a very simple rule.
Having said that, I still wouldn't be surprised if the USGA/R&A will review the new studies that are sure to be released, and at least considering returning to the previous flagstick rules if those studies show a real advantage to leaving the flagstick in.



There are no flaws. Just like everyone had an option to anchor a putter or not to anchor a putter. We see how that turned out but somehow anchoring it to your forearm is legal. I join Hank Haney in his despise for the USGA.


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20 hours ago, Jmikecpa said:

 

 

 

 


There are no flaws. Just like everyone had an option to anchor a putter or not to anchor a putter. We see how that turned out but somehow anchoring it to your forearm is legal. I join Hank Haney in his despise for the USGA.


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If they are going to wait 40 years to change the rule back I'm good with it.  At 62 I don't think I need to be concerned about that change.

Seriously I don't know how the USGA can win.  I'm not a huge fan but it seems to me that they are trying to make the game simpler with these changes.  That's what most people want.  I'm certainly willing to cut them some slack here.  I like the changes - I would have made the lower drop a place - saves tons of time but that's me.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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If they are going to wait 40 years to change the rule back I'm good with it.  At 62 I don't think I need to be concerned about that change.
Seriously I don't know how the USGA can win.  I'm not a huge fan but it seems to me that they are trying to make the game simpler with these changes.  That's what most people want.  I'm certainly willing to cut them some slack here.  I like the changes - I would have made the lower drop a place - saves tons of time but that's me.


Some of the rule changes I agree with and they got them right others not so much. The flagstick rule for me is fine but now after they are implemented to say “wait people might use this the their advantage” and not the time saving spirit we intended and then panic is a poor showing. How did they not know that people would look for an advantage? As golfer we do that with clubs and balls all the time.

I agree that sometimes they are in a no win situation but they also don’t do themselves any favors. Two US Opens in a row that course set up was shall we say less than ideal.


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My Moneys on Rory today, most of his wins came when he was trailing in the last round.

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Pretty exciting back 9 this evening as Xander just tied Woodland for the lead. Rory is fading fast!


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Felt bad for Woodland, but Xander played flawlessly today - although it would have been nice to see him sink the putt for an eagle.


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Left Hand orientation

:taylormade-small:SIM 2 D Max with Fujikura Air Speeder Shaft 

Cobra  Radspeed 3W/RIptide Shaft
:ping-small:  410  Hybrids 22*, 26*

Cobra Speed Zone 6-GP/Recoil ESX 460 F3 Shafts 

:titelist-small: SM7 54* Wedge

:ping-small: Glide 3.0  60* Wedge

:odyssey-small: O Works putter

:ShotScope: V3
:918457628_PrecisionPro:NX9-HD

:CaddyTek: - 4 Wheel 

EZGO TXT 48v cart
:footjoy-small: - too many shoes to list and so many to buy

:1590477705_SunMountain: And  BAG Boy

Golf Balls: Vice Pro Plus 

2020 Official Teste:SuperSpeed: Beginning Driver Speed  - 78

2019 Official Tester :ping-small:  410 Driver

2018 Official Tester :wilson-small: C300

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Great back nine drama. Felt terrible for Woodland, questionable choice on his approach shot on 18 IMO.


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Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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