Soaring Club Prices too Much For Van Sickle

[Golfspy_CG2]

http://www.morningread.com/features/20286b8d-0ed8-453b-b1d0-ec5578c12b7f

 

Oh great....Another story in a mainstream publication that golf club prices are too high.   There's no doubt they have risen over the past ten and even five years as Van Sickle says.  But he spends much of the article complaining that prices are too high, and golf participation is dying, which is another argument in of itself. 

I'll continue to beat the drum, of golf is as expensive or inexpensive as you make it.   If you buy a set of brand new irons--or OK maybe two----alright----three sets each year, and take destination trips to places like Pinehurst, Bandon or even Scotland, then yes it's going to cost a fair amount of money.   But if you're perfectly content playing a driver and/or irons that are several models old, chances are you're not going to be giving up too many yards or fairways to your extravagant friends. There are many great daily fee municipal courses, where you can play a round of golf for less than the cost of a meal and beer at Outback--I should know, i work at one---golf course that is---not an Outback!

We by nature on this forum are equipment junkies, and I know many of you who have said they will never pay $500 or even $300 for a new driver, and be very content, and I know a few who will think that the newest $500 driver just has to be better than that $500 driver you just bought 3 months ago--I may or may not be looking in a mirror when I say that 

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts, are you more in line agreeing with the Author or have a different take. 

 

[jturner7499]

I agree 100% that golf is as expensive or inexpensive as we want to make it. My personal set of clubs has cost me a total of $85. It took a couple years and some patients but there are definitely ways to get around the “high club cost”.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[cnosil]

Prior to really getting engaged into this and other golf forums I played used equipment that I keep in my bag for a long time. I found and still find most of the balls I play on the course; I can’t remember the last time I bought golf balls. I can walk 18 at the local public course for
If I was putting together a set of clubs, I am pretty sure I could put a decent bag together for about $250.

Golf can be expensive if you want to make it expensive. As you mentioned I can make a dinner with my wife expensive if I start to add alcohol to the bill.

Any hobby can be expensive depending how you approach it. People, at least in the US, have a tendency to live beyond their means so yes, you can make golf a really expensive endeavor if you continually buy new stuff and have to play the best courses.

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

As GolfSpy T often points out, there is absolutely NO data to support the idea that equipment costs influence participation. None. 

It's a convenient, albeit flawed argument to make, but correlation isn't causation.

And, as T correctly points out, the existence of a PXG doesn't mean a lower-priced alternative is wiped off the board. 

Jeff from Hireko Golf told me last year that loft-for-loft and shaft-for-shaft, a lower priced version of a Hireko model will perform so close to a "name brand" iron that most of us non-professionals (and non-plus handicaps) couldn't tell the difference. And seriously, I want to learn more about Sub 70, started by Diamond Golf's owners. Stuff looks pretty sweet at a nice looking price. 

[Golfspy_CG2]

16 minutes ago, GolfSpy Barbajo said:

As GolfSpy T often points out, there is absolutely NO data to support the idea that equipment costs influence participation. None. 

It's a convenient, albeit flawed argument to make, but correlation isn't causation.

And, as T correctly points out, the existence of a PXG doesn't mean a lower-priced alternative is wiped off the board. 

Jeff from Hireko Golf told me last year that loft-for-loft and shaft-for-shaft, a lower priced version of a Hireko model will perform so close to a "name brand" iron that most of us non-professionals (and non-plus handicaps) couldn't tell the difference. And seriously, I want to learn more about Sub 70, started by Diamond Golf's owners. Stuff looks pretty sweet at a nice looking price. 

I agree with Tony--and as a result you as well--we see it at course, the only thing that slows down our number of rounds is the weather.  We had  historically high record rainfalls last year in this region, and even at that surpassed the previous years rounds played.   it's been that trend for several years.  

Added to that, even though we aren't a real high volume sales course in equipment, we have also had year over year increases in equipment sales the past three years.  Sure we don't stock PXG, but I bet if we were to carry a couple of it's $585 drivers, i know we would sell them--and no I'm not counting myself in that 

But I guess it's--the Van Sickle piece--is an easy article to write when you're deadline is coming up and you're stuck on ideas. 

[StrokerAce]

The paragraph below personifies me and I couldn't agree more...especially the thrifty part.    I cannot imagine ever buying a brand new golf club.  I've done it once (a set of irons and a hybrid) and to this day I would tell anyone it was a bad investment.  I've played used clubs and the new ones are not one iota better.  different, but not better.  perhaps this is because I'm just an average player and I cannot discern the differences...

Quote

It’s not up to me to say what will sell and what won’t. Customers decide that. A lot of golfers, like me, are value-conscious. You could say we’re cheap. I prefer to think of myself as thrifty. I can’t see crossing the Forbes Line to buy a new driver … unless I’m going to pick up 25 yards off the tee. Then, yeah, I’m all in. I’d pay any price for that. But if I can save $300 on a driver that I hit only 2 yards shorter than the high-priced one, I’m probably not going to pop for the expensive one.

 

Below is where he kind-of lost me.  
The game is hard, but not too hard; it's certainly not bowling (no offense bowlers!) but it also doesn't take an extreme amount of skill to play.  Like anything if you want to play well you've got to practice.

Hard to disagree with it taking too long but there are many causes for that.... poor golfers losing balls, too many people on the course at once, slow players, etc., etc.

Costs too much?  This depends a lot on where you live, when you play and how you play.  As I said above, I'm "thrifty" so I use the discount hot-deals, play during the week and walk when I can...you can save a lot of money doing that...but if you live in an expensive area there's not much you can do about it.  The start-up costs don't have to be high, but there is a barrier (500?) to getting started but you also don't need an entire set of clubs - you can start with fewer than 14 clubs and take your time 'building' your bag.  And there's no requirement to join a club...especially if the membership fees are too high.

Quote

Golf has three areas of crisis. The game is too difficult, it takes too long to play, and it costs too much. The latter problem includes green fees, club memberships and equipment (including shoes, balls, bag and travel cover).

 

[Shankster]

I don’t know...

Nearly $400 for a 3 wood? I mean I like Taylormade clubs a lot, but I got my SLDR on sale for $75 brand new.

I don’t think I’ll gain $325 worth of performance.

Someone needs to stop the madness.

Brands like Hogan will be more on my radar because of the price increases.

Can’t honestly tell me there’s $50 of yardage in those new drivers over last year??? Or are we paying by the half yard?

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

There's two reasons you buy anything - either you need it or you want it. And either reason is valid. At that point, it's what price are you willing to pay. If someone wants to buy a $400 fairway wood, that's their business and they sure as hell don't have to justify their decision to me. Unless, of course, they come to me to borrow the money. 

I am learning, as I get older, that spending a bit more for something of better quality or for something I just like the look/feel/fit of, or even something that I enjoy owning and using, is worth it to me. The same stuff may not be worth it to someone else.

IMO, golf equipment isn't any different -- I'm still trying to find the official Yards-per-Dollar Matrix, but I'm beginning to doubt it exists because if it did, that Tour Edge HL-3 driver we tested last year would have been by far the number one seller. It gave you more yards per dollar than anything else in Most Wanted. 

 

 

[Golfspy_CG2]

15 minutes ago, GolfSpy Barbajo said:

There's two reasons you buy anything - either you need it or you want it. And either reason is valid. At that point, it's what price are you willing to pay. If someone wants to buy a $400 fairway wood, that's their business and they sure as hell don't have to justify their decision to me. Unless, of course, they come to me to borrow the money. 

I am learning, as I get older, that spending a bit more for something of better quality or for something I just like the look/feel/fit of, or even something that I enjoy owning and using, is worth it to me. The same stuff may not be worth it to someone else.

IMO, golf equipment isn't any different -- I'm still trying to find the official Yards-per-Dollar Matrix, but I'm beginning to doubt it exists because if it did, that Tour Edge HL-3 driver we tested last year would have been by far the number one seller. It gave you more yards per dollar than anything else in Most Wanted. 

 

 

[Kenny B]

LOL.

Last year I wrote into the MorningRead Inbox about an article that Van Sickle wrote (forgot the topic), but in the next article he wrote, he referred to me as "an internet troll"; not by name mind you!

[Shankster]

I hear you. But a $100 bump for the same category FW metal? Just changed the number on the bottom. To 6 or 5 or whatever it is.

I like quality too. But was last year’s any less good? Same materials...

[Golfspy_CG2]

13 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

LOL.

Last year I wrote into the MorningRead Inbox about an article that Van Sickle wrote (forgot the topic), but in the next article he wrote, he referred to me as "an internet troll"; not by name mind you!

Love it when the media refers to anyone that disagrees with them as a troll...Ha Heaven help it if you have your own opinion.   Maybe I should copy and paste my post and send it in, to see if I can earn the same distinction....

[null]

Not clicking that link because I don't want to send someone internet traffic for such lazy writing.

[RickyBobby_PR]

Same old stuff over and over and most arguments have been debunked. Name a consumer product that hasn’t increased in price. Technology, innovation, materials, labor, marketing, etc all have to be taken into consideration and none of that is going down.

golf is hard but it can still be enjoyed at all skill levels no different than most sports.  

[Golfspy_CG2]

14 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Not clicking that link because I don't want to send someone internet traffic for such lazy writing.

At least I didn't click, it just came to my morning inbox.  Maybe I should write back threatening to unsubscribe if that's the best writing they could offer.   

1 minute ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Same old stuff over and over and most arguments have been debunked. Name a consumer product that hasn’t increased in price. Technology, innovation, materials, labor, marketing, etc all have to be taken into consideration and none of that is going down.

golf is hard but it can still be enjoyed at all skill levels no different than most sports.  

Don't be a Troll 

[russtopherb]

Where’s the article bemoaning how rising car costs have stopped people from driving?

Every year at this time there’s a few articles like this. Such laziness.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[GB13]

Typical "news" reporting...

[Kenny B]

47 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Love it when the media refers to anyone that disagrees with them as a troll...Ha Heaven help it if you have your own opinion.   Maybe I should copy and paste my post and send it in, to see if I can earn the same distinction....

If you don't, I'd be happy to "troll" again!!

[RickyBobby_PR]

31 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

At least I didn't click, it just came to my morning inbox.  Maybe I should write back threatening to unsubscribe if that's the best writing they could offer.   

Don't be a Troll 

Gotta do what I do best

[StrokerAce]

....I don't know much about this Van Sickle character but it seems like he has a reputation; although, in this case, I think he makes a fair point.... yeah, yeah, it's the same point that's been made the last few years but until things kind of level out then I think you'll keep seeing it.

I also hear each year how the USGA (and others) want to "grow the game".... you can't have it both ways.

...and remember, I'm the thrifty guy.... I'd never buy an 800-1000 dollar phone either but that's how much they go for now.  :0

[Golfspy_CG2]

1 hour ago, Kenny B said:

If you don't, I'd be happy to "troll" again!!

I couldn't let you have all the fun!  email sent with a link to the thread. 

[Mr. 82]

4 hours ago, Shankster said:

Can’t honestly tell me there’s $50 of yardage in those new drivers over last year??? Or are we paying by the half yard?

In November and December I created a Sunday bag with my old PING G5 driver and went out to the local 9-hole muni and put it into play after being out of the bag for about a year and change.  I know it's not scientific, but the numbers tell me that I was hitting that 15 year old driver just as far, if not further than my PING G400 driver I bought last year.

I bought both drivers at full price, 15 years apart, and honestly, at first I thought the G400 was giving me 20-30 yards more off of the tee, but frankly now I really don't know.  I suppose if I wanted to really get hard numbers I could hit 20 shots of both on a launch monitor and see what the real numbers say when all is said and done.

With regards to equipment being to expensive - I went about 15 years before upgrading my entire bag.  I spent the past 18 months replacing everything in the bag pretty much, and now that I am set with the new stuff, I'll be playing these clubs until I either break them, or find out that my old ass body is wearing down to the point where I need a senior flex in my shafts.

And like I argued with my old boss a few months ago, fishing (and hunting) are far more expensive than golf.  And honestly, if you only play golf once or twice a month, you'll spend no more than a couple of dinners out with the wife at a decent restaurant.  You can spend a ton on this game, or not much at all.  It's really a personal thing.

[PING Apologist #9]

There are very few things in my bag (bag included) that I paid full retail for...The driver is one and the only club that I did pay full smoke on. About choked on it at $399 + tax, so that's my limit. Unless I hit the lottery (and you gotta play to win...and I don't most often), price points for my golf gear will remain on items less-than-retail like good-used off of the "bay". I simply am not the guy who has the need to have the most "expensivist" clubs especially since I am mediocre at best and will probably never compete for more than post round beers.

As many have stated already, prices do go up...on everything. Golf gear is no different. Get over it already.

[revkev]

I’m unimpressed by the article - he defeats his own argument by demonstrating that he has perfectly playable reasonably priced equipment.

Additionally he lives in Milwaukee. Their system of municipal courses that provide affordable high quality golf for its residents is well known. Included among those courses is a former Tour venue, Brown Deer Park.

I know Shankster is trying to equate cost with performance - it’s not necessarily the case my friend nor is that why people buy new equipment every year or two. They do it because it makes them feel good that they can.

My grandfather used to buy a new, fully loaded Caddy every year. Why? Because he could and because he had once come over on a boat and grew up too poor to eat more than a meal a day. During the depression he worked three jobs. One turned out really great for him post war to retirement so every year he bought a Caddy and bought 50 yard seats to the Super Bowl.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[Golfspy_CG2]

@Kenny B. 

He did reply very nicely to my message.  Thanking me for the link but still insisting golf is dying and rising cost in all aspects is a reason.  

I said at least at my course in our region we don't see that.  But encouraged him to write a more in-depth piece from all angels, OEM's, courses, consumers and TV Networks.   

Something along the lines youd see from John or Tony

 

 

[JAGolfore]

There's two reasons you buy anything - either you need it or you want it. And either reason is valid. At that point, it's what price are you willing to pay. If someone wants to buy a $400 fairway wood, that's their business and they sure as hell don't have to justify their decision to me. Unless, of course, they come to me to borrow the money. 
I am learning, as I get older, that spending a bit more for something of better quality or for something I just like the look/feel/fit of, or even something that I enjoy owning and using, is worth it to me. The same stuff may not be worth it to someone else.
IMO, golf equipment isn't any different -- I'm still trying to find the official Yards-per-Dollar Matrix, but I'm beginning to doubt it exists because if it did, that Tour Edge HL-3 driver we tested last year would have been by far the number one seller. It gave you more yards per dollar than anything else in Most Wanted. 
 
 

There has to be a simple formula for this. Yards a person hits the driver vs the cost of that club. It will vary by person but I think that would be cool to see. And have available when getting fit.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[fixyurdivot]

On 1/8/2019 at 7:10 AM, jturner7499 said:

I agree 100% that golf is as expensive or inexpensive as we want to make it. My personal set of clubs has cost me a total of $85. It took a couple years and some patients but there are definitely ways to get around the “high club cost”.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

+1.  Golf equipment cost is similar to what I've observed in fly fishing.  $1000+ fly rods are available but will not necessarily cast better or catch more fish. It's clear the mfg's are tapping into a segment of the players (fishermen) that believe high price equals high performance, simply like the looks of or being seen with that product, or both.  Nothing wrong with that at all.  

I see folks all decked out with high end fly fishing equipment who cannot cast the length of the boat and folks with custom fitted PXG's chopping their way down the fairways.  I also see folks with old $100 rods laying out gorgeous presentations and folks with low cost clubs playing great golf.  If all are having fun with whatever they choose in equipment, to each their own.

Reading the article, it seems that the author is focusing too much on the more recent growth of "high end/cost" and not balancing that with the fact that there is still plenty of mid range, quality equipment available - and that dosen't even account for the used market option.  I would no way have paid $300 for my Callaway Razr-Fit, but had no problem forking over $50.

Now, were the market to shift where all new clubs were in the Mizuno, PXG, etc. price points, I think his article would be spot on...but that is not the case.

[PING Apologist #9]

8 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

+1.  Golf equipment cost is similar to what I've observed in fly fishing.  $1000+ fly rods are available but will not necessarily cast better or catch more fish. It's clear the mfg's are tapping into a segment of the players (fishermen) that believe high price equals high performance, simply like the looks of or being seen with that product, or both.  Nothing wrong with that at all.  

I see folks all decked out with high end fly fishing equipment who cannot cast the length of the boat and folks with custom fitted PXG's chopping their way down the fairways.  I also see folks with old $100 rods laying out gorgeous presentations and folks with low cost clubs playing great golf.  If all are having fun with whatever they choose in equipment, to each their own.

Reading the article, it seems that the author is focusing too much on the more recent growth of "high end/cost" and not balancing that with the fact that there is still plenty of mid range, quality equipment available - and that dosen't even account for the used market option.  I would no way have paid $300 for my Callaway Razr-Fit, but had no problem forking over $50.

Now, were the market to shift where all new clubs were in the Mizuno, PXG, etc. price points, I think his article would be spot on...but that is not the case.

Well stated Sir! Spot-on with the fly-fishing analogy.

[toehold57]

And just played out on YouTube. This guy has 3 videos over the past few days about his “beater” clubs. Interesting, plus he has a sense of humor.

Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

The dude misses one very important point about any business - margins. 

IF what he says about declining participation is accurate, and IF you know the market for drivers is declining (meaning fewer drivers overall are going to be sold year after year), and IF your goal is margin and not market share, your prices will be going up. If your goal is market share then sure, your can cut your prices, but how many more will you have to sell to get to the same profit in dollars than if you left the price alone?  

If you have a profit margin of 20 percent on your product when you sell it to a retailer, and you decide to cut your selling price 15% (ONLY!!!!), and guesses on how much your volume would have to increase in order to make the same profit dollars as you would have if you had just left well enough alone?

Try 300%.

You would have to sell THREE TIMES AS MANY DRIVERS just to get back to where you were before you made the market share grab. But even that number is a little shady, because everything you do is going to have to triple - you'll need more inventory, you'll need more warehouse space, more manufacturing capabilities, more order-entry, more sales people and more advertising to get people to reach for your product compared to someone else's - and we're talking only a15% percent price cut. If your retailer passes that price cut on to the consumer, a $399 driver would be selling it for $339.  Is THAT kind of a price cut going to get you 3 time the sales?

On the other hand, if you were working on a 20% margin and actually INCREASED pricing 15% - now selling that $399 driver for $459, you could LOSE 43% of your sales and still stay whole profit dollar-wise. 

And both scenarios assume your cost of goods sold doesn't change which, of course, it will.

Hmmmmm.....

Which would you do?

This may seem like a slight oversimplification - and in some ways it is - but ultimately the math is the math is the math...