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Har in the Hat

new rules and aftermath

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So we had the first PGA tour event with the new rules. And with it came endless discussions on social media and TV about it.  Dropping the ball from knee height and the flagstick seem to have dominated the roundtable discussions 

are you also thinking that the coverage and analysis is too much. 

And of particular note is that it seems everyone on the planet is posting videos of themselves dropping at knee height.

 

I think this should be posted in the other category "Media"

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I think that the drop rule will become quicker and easier the more it gets used, it’s new to everyone, and they all want to make sure they are doing it correctly, eventually it will save time, mostly because there should be less redropping, I like the idea of an area of dropping rather than a spot, and since the drop is closer to the ground it shouldn’t bounce and roll so much as it will have less velocity from the drop and should land softer. 

Flag in or out shouldn’t bother anyone, it only affects the person who is putting the ball. If you don’t want it don’t use it, if toyou want it then leave it in, it’s not any more or less time saving, with the exception of some longer putts. 

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Isn't there always a resistance to change audience? And it's by no means unique to golf. I don't find it difficult to ignore the commentary myself. After a couple articles/videos and thoughtful exchanges here, I've decided how I'm going to deal with the flagstick, no need for more discussion for me. Those who want more, have at it.

In a year or less, most if not all the new rules will no longer be a topic for most.

" All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." incorrectly attributed to Arthur Schopenhauer.

The first two stages take a while, the last stage is usually unnoticed and in silence.

Edited by Middler

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I think that the drop rule will become quicker and easier the more it gets used, it’s new to everyone, and they all want to make sure they are doing it correctly, eventually it will save time, mostly because there should be less redropping, I like the idea of an area of dropping rather than a spot, and since the drop is closer to the ground it shouldn’t bounce and roll so much as it will have less velocity from the drop and should land softer. 
Flag in or out shouldn’t bother anyone, it only affects the person who is putting the ball. If you don’t want it don’t use it, if toyou want it then leave it in, it’s not any more or less time saving, with the exception of some longer putts. 


Actually I disagree - flag in is tremendously time saving if everyone does it - 3 some yesterday, 305 playing time, everyone left the flag in - we would haven been under three hours if we didn’t have to wait on another threesome for 2 1/2 holes. They were taking the flag out - among other things that slowed them down. BTW no one in my group played particularly well in brutal conditions so it’s not as if good play sped us up - 84,91,95 were our scores.




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6 minutes ago, revkev said:

Actually I disagree - flag in is tremendously time saving if everyone does it - 3 some yesterday, 305 playing time, everyone left the flag in - we would haven been under three hours if we didn’t have to wait on another threesome for 2 1/2 holes. They were taking the flag out - among other things that slowed them down. BTW no one in my group played particularly well in brutal conditions so it’s not as if good play sped us up - 84,91,95 were our scores.

Makes sense on paper, but I'll be surprised if everyone in a foursome much less everyone playing does the same thing. I play in two leagues, 60+ and 160+ players, and time wasting idiosyncrasies are not at all uncommon. I usually know how pleasant/unpleasant and how fast I'll be playing as soon as I see the weekly pairing and tee times - but I don't let it bother me. I don't think new rules will change that in any substantial way.

Edited by Middler
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Makes sense on paper, but I'll be surprised if everyone in a foursome much less everyone playing does the same thing. I play in two leagues, 60+ and 160+ players, and time wasting idiosyncrasies are not at all uncommon. I usually know how pleasant/unpleasant and how fast I'll be playing as soon as I see the weekly pairing and tee times - but I don't let it bother me. I don't think new rules will change that in any substantial way.

It’s the selfishness and “time wasting ideosynchrasies” that push me further and further away from the game. Nothing but a bunch of spoiled retired guys with nothing better to do then to play slow and selfishly hold up others on a golf course. I’ve got better things to do then to spend half my round waiting on someone else to hit a freaking shot. Leave the f’ing flagstick in and learn to prioritize others in front of your own selfishness. Frankly I don’t think most golfers can do it because I see a lot of spoiled selfishness out there that destroys the game for everyone else around them.


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44 minutes ago, GSwag said:


It’s the selfishness and “time wasting ideosynchrasies” that push me further and further away from the game. Nothing but a bunch of spoiled retired guys with nothing better to do then to play slow and selfishly hold up others on a golf course. I’ve got better things to do then to spend half my round waiting on someone else to hit a freaking shot. Leave the f’ing flagstick in and learn to prioritize others in front of your own selfishness. Frankly I don’t think most golfers can do it because I see a lot of spoiled selfishness out there that destroys the game for everyone else around them.
 

Slow play is an issue to be sure, but to stereotype golfers as "spoiled retired guys with nothing better to do then to play slow and selfishly hold up others on a golf course " is completely inappropriate.  And please, don't suggest that you didn't stereotype them, the phrase "nothing but...." pretty much does just that.  I definitely know a few of those slow-playing retired guys, but I know a bunch of very quick retired gents as well.  And I know a few slow selfish young guys as well.  

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18 hours ago, revkev said:

 


Actually I disagree - flag in is tremendously time saving if everyone does it - 3 some yesterday, 305 playing time, everyone left the flag in - we would haven been under three hours if we didn’t have to wait on another threesome for 2 1/2 holes. They were taking the flag out - among other things that slowed them down. BTW no one in my group played particularly well in brutal conditions so it’s not as if good play sped us up - 84,91,95 were our scores.




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True, It should save time if the rule is used, it won’t save time if it isn’t used, that’s why I said in the cases of long putts, since I think that’s where most folks will go ahead and leave it in. I don’t know of too many people who will leave it in on putts from 15 feet or so. I think the more and more comfortable people become with the new rules, it will save time, right now I think people are not sure what they want to do, I like the idea of having the flag in, and in a lot of cases I will leave it in, if a playing partner wants it out, I just leave it out instead of going back and forth putting it in and taking it out. 

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The new rules are going to dominate the discussion or analysis until there is enough play that has happened to change the conversation to what is happening on the course.

Remember at the beginning of the NFL season the conversation was dominated by what is actually a roughing the passer penalty? As the season went on, that died out. Now the conversation is about what are the referees actually doing?


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14 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Slow play is an issue to be sure, but to stereotype golfers as "spoiled retired guys with nothing better to do then to play slow and selfishly hold up others on a golf course " is completely inappropriate.  And please, don't suggest that you didn't stereotype them, the phrase "nothing but...." pretty much does just that.  I definitely know a few of those slow-playing retired guys, but I know a bunch of very quick retired gents as well.  And I know a few slow selfish young guys as well.  

True. 

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Funny. Of the times that I am stuck behind a slow group, not once has it been because of the slow play of the "saved enough money to stop working at an advanced age" club.  It has always been because of us, young guys.

 

I do find the time spent on golf broadcasts to be focused more than my liking on the new rules.  But, I do think they will speed up the game.  It's still strange to me, but I am a fan of leaving the flag in.  Now only if people would realize that playing 2-3 balls every swing wasn't included in the new rules.

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On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 2:18 PM, Middler said:

Makes sense on paper, but I'll be surprised if everyone in a foursome much less everyone playing does the same thing. I play in two leagues, 60+ and 160+ players, and time wasting idiosyncrasies are not at all uncommon. I usually know how pleasant/unpleasant and how fast I'll be playing as soon as I see the weekly pairing and tee times - but I don't let it bother me. I don't think new rules will change that in any substantial way.

Yes we have some of these folks in our league as well - I love my league, love the guys and gals in it but I do know right away how it's going to be when I see whose in front of me. 😞  I live with it -

Having written that I'm the "rules guy" for one of my league in that I write a monthly little blog during the season.  I'm going to write something on the flag in rule complete with a link to the MGS test - it's already to go in fact - I submitted it to the chair of the handicap committee who posts it - he said he will post in late March. 

It encourages groups to leave the flag on - honestly our offenders are guys who have fairly significant side bets going during the round.  That league is individual and we putt everything out - so they take forever lining up putts on greens that they have played 100's of rounds on - the ball always breaks towards 62 Avenue people - always. 🙂

They aren't selfish people - they just get caught up in the spirit of their competition.  We can still generally play in under 4 and a half hours - not exactly a snails pace but I know that it could be faster without impacting anyone's score.

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Slow play is an issue to be sure, but to stereotype golfers as "spoiled retired guys with nothing better to do then to play slow and selfishly hold up others on a golf course " is completely inappropriate.  And please, don't suggest that you didn't stereotype them, the phrase "nothing but...." pretty much does just that.  I definitely know a few of those slow-playing retired guys, but I know a bunch of very quick retired gents as well.  And I know a few slow selfish young guys as well.  

Well said! As one of those retired guys, I can attest to our league guys playing pretty fast.

Why do we have slow play at our club? More often or not it's guests of our members who consider it an outing for the day. They spend more time smoking and joking not to mention a couple of trips to the snack bar to refill their beer coolers. I do fault our club for not having someone on the course moving these people along.


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On 1/21/2019 at 4:38 PM, GSwag said:

It’s the selfishness and “time wasting ideosynchrasies” that push me further and further away from the game. Nothing but a bunch of spoiled retired guys with nothing better to do then to play slow and selfishly hold up others on a golf course. I’ve got better things to do then to spend half my round waiting on someone else to hit a freaking shot. Leave the f’ing flagstick in and learn to prioritize others in front of your own selfishness. Frankly I don’t think most golfers can do it because I see a lot of spoiled selfishness out there that destroys the game for everyone else around them.


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On 1/21/2019 at 5:26 PM, DaveP043 said:

Slow play is an issue to be sure, but to stereotype golfers as "spoiled retired guys with nothing better to do then to play slow and selfishly hold up others on a golf course " is completely inappropriate.  And please, don't suggest that you didn't stereotype them, the phrase "nothing but...." pretty much does just that.  I definitely know a few of those slow-playing retired guys, but I know a bunch of very quick retired gents as well.  And I know a few slow selfish young guys as well.  

Yes, that was a sad, uncalled for rant above. There are slow seniors, and some very quick, and everything in between. But I’ve seen young and middle aged players who are ridiculously slow as well, sometimes drunk and loud, and sometimes taking longer than a touring pro like they have big money on the line. Fast or slow play aren’t unique to old or young, men or women...

Edited by Middler

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So I’m 25, youngest in my group of regulars at home with the oldest being in his late 70s (and he’s a legitimate 10hdcp). We had a group of 5 this last week where 2 players were undecided about the flagstick being in or out, one always in, and one always out. In spite of some flagstick hot potatoes finished our round in just under 3 and a half hours with scores of 73, 75, 79, 85 and 98(Had to find the scorecard for reference). Between the number of golfers and juggling the flag we still managed what I would call a decent pace for a group that size so I think any pace issues that arise from this can be solved. We had it so that the first to hole out manned the flagstick and added and removed as needed. I’m not a fan of the new rule for grounding your club in the sand but that’s for another rant.

There is hope for us yet... I think...


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6 hours ago, EthanSterlingPrice said:

So I’m 25, youngest in my group of regulars at home with the oldest being in his late 70s (and he’s a legitimate 10hdcp). We had a group of 5 this last week where 2 players were undecided about the flagstick being in or out, one always in, and one always out. In spite of some flagstick hot potatoes finished our round in just under 3 and a half hours with scores of 73, 75, 79, 85 and 98(Had to find the scorecard for reference). Between the number of golfers and juggling the flag we still managed what I would call a decent pace for a group that size so I think any pace issues that arise from this can be solved. We had it so that the first to hole out manned the flagstick and added and removed as needed. I’m not a fan of the new rule for grounding your club in the sand but that’s for another rant.

There is hope for us yet... I think...

I agree with you about the flagstick.  As long we players communicate clearly and act appropriately, there's no reason that handling the flagstick should slow things down.  It will require some changes in habits (never put the flagstick on the ground until everyone is done with it), but that's it

Concerning the rule about grounding your club in the bunker, I hope you understand that you still can't test the sand, or touch the sand when making a practice swing, or ground the club in front of or behind the ball, or touch the sand in your backswing.   

Edited by DaveP043
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54 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Concerning the rule about grounding your club in the bunker, I hope you understand that you still can't test the sand, or touch the sand when making a practice swing, or ground the club in front of or behind the ball, or touch the sand in your backswing.   

I’m sure I’ll continue to hover the club behind the ball in traps for a long time, if not forever. Old habits can be hard to break. But if I ever touch the sand, it’s nice to know there won’t be a penalty.

I always thought the “testing the sand” with your club argument was a little thin since you can test the sand all you want with your feet? Maybe that’s why they changed the rule?

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19 hours ago, JohnSmalls said:

Funny. Of the times that I am stuck behind a slow group, not once has it been because of the slow play of the "saved enough money to stop working at an advanced age" club.  It has always been because of us, young guys.

You just described our most recent slow play experience last week.  A group of younger guys, 3 playing from black and one from white.  Two of the three had no business playing from black and, based on what we could see from the others fairway play, he was questionable as well.  But, you could tell they loved the idea of HUGE drives above all else and were enjoying themselves. We were just a group of retired guys for which, as a general rule, making a horse-race out of a golf round isn't a priority.  So, we just watched the show and enjoyed our round.

Quite frankly just as some here are complaining about and advocating for faster play, a good many enjoy a more leisurely pace.  There seems to be a whole new everything faster revolution going on.  I personally think it is a spillover from the social media, always on, always connected, aspect of current times. Having just spent 30 years in corporate hyperdrive mode, I for one like being off that merry-go-round and don't want to see the need for speed ruin a game I've played and enjoyed for over 50 years.  

Worse, these "changes" take on the feel of a populist movement - which tend to split the audience into groups.  We're starting to see this already in the "pin in or pin out" discussion.  Much to be said for the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" IMHO.

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1 hour ago, Middler said:

I’m sure I’ll continue to hover the club behind the ball in traps for a long time, if not forever. Old habits can be hard to break. But if I ever touch the sand, it’s nice to know there won’t be a penalty.

I always thought the “testing the sand” with your club argument was a little thin since you can test the sand all you want with your feet? Maybe that’s why they changed the rule?

It still is a penalty to touch the sand in these situations:

Quote

(1) When Touching Sand Results in Penalty. Before making a stroke at a ball in a bunker, a player must not:

  • Deliberately touch sand in the bunker with a hand, club, rake or other object to test the condition of the sand to learn information for the next stroke, or

  • Touch sand in the bunker with a club:

This is part of Rule 12.2.b

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I agree with you about the flagstick.  As long we players communicate clearly and act appropriately, there's no reason that handling the flagstick should slow things down.  It will require some changes in habits (never put the flagstick on the ground until everyone is done with it), but that's it
Concerning the rule about grounding your club in the bunker, I hope you understand that you still can't test the sand, or touch the sand when making a practice swing, or ground the club in front of or behind the ball, or touch the sand in your backswing.   

Yessir I got it covered. I play competitive so the first I heard of the changes I made sure to know exactly what was what



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Driver: Callaway Rogue Subzero 9.5 Stiff flex
3 wood: Callaway Rogue Subzero 15 degree
Hybrids: 17 degree titleist 816 h2
Irons: Ben Hogan Ptx 22-46 degree (4-pw)stiff flex standard lie
Wedges: Callaway Mac Daddy 4 50,54,58 degrees
Putter: Odyssey EXO seven

Gig’em Aggies!

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