new rules and aftermath

[Har in the Hat]

So we had the first PGA tour event with the new rules. And with it came endless discussions on social media and TV about it.  Dropping the ball from knee height and the flagstick seem to have dominated the roundtable discussions 

are you also thinking that the coverage and analysis is too much. 

And of particular note is that it seems everyone on the planet is posting videos of themselves dropping at knee height.

 

I think this should be posted in the other category "Media"

[Kor.A.Door]

I think that the drop rule will become quicker and easier the more it gets used, it’s new to everyone, and they all want to make sure they are doing it correctly, eventually it will save time, mostly because there should be less redropping, I like the idea of an area of dropping rather than a spot, and since the drop is closer to the ground it shouldn’t bounce and roll so much as it will have less velocity from the drop and should land softer. 

Flag in or out shouldn’t bother anyone, it only affects the person who is putting the ball. If you don’t want it don’t use it, if toyou want it then leave it in, it’s not any more or less time saving, with the exception of some longer putts. 

[revkev]

I think that the drop rule will become quicker and easier the more it gets used, it’s new to everyone, and they all want to make sure they are doing it correctly, eventually it will save time, mostly because there should be less redropping, I like the idea of an area of dropping rather than a spot, and since the drop is closer to the ground it shouldn’t bounce and roll so much as it will have less velocity from the drop and should land softer. 
Flag in or out shouldn’t bother anyone, it only affects the person who is putting the ball. If you don’t want it don’t use it, if toyou want it then leave it in, it’s not any more or less time saving, with the exception of some longer putts. 

Actually I disagree - flag in is tremendously time saving if everyone does it - 3 some yesterday, 305 playing time, everyone left the flag in - we would haven been under three hours if we didn’t have to wait on another threesome for 2 1/2 holes. They were taking the flag out - among other things that slowed them down. BTW no one in my group played particularly well in brutal conditions so it’s not as if good play sped us up - 84,91,95 were our scores.




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[Mr. 82]

Makes sense on paper, but I'll be surprised if everyone in a foursome much less everyone playing does the same thing. I play in two leagues, 60+ and 160+ players, and time wasting idiosyncrasies are not at all uncommon. I usually know how pleasant/unpleasant and how fast I'll be playing as soon as I see the weekly pairing and tee times - but I don't let it bother me. I don't think new rules will change that in any substantial way.

It’s the selfishness and “time wasting ideosynchrasies” that push me further and further away from the game. Nothing but a bunch of spoiled retired guys with nothing better to do then to play slow and selfishly hold up others on a golf course. I’ve got better things to do then to spend half my round waiting on someone else to hit a freaking shot. Leave the f’ing flagstick in and learn to prioritize others in front of your own selfishness. Frankly I don’t think most golfers can do it because I see a lot of spoiled selfishness out there that destroys the game for everyone else around them.


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[DaveP043]

44 minutes ago, GSwag said:

It’s the selfishness and “time wasting ideosynchrasies” that push me further and further away from the game. Nothing but a bunch of spoiled retired guys with nothing better to do then to play slow and selfishly hold up others on a golf course. I’ve got better things to do then to spend half my round waiting on someone else to hit a freaking shot. Leave the f’ing flagstick in and learn to prioritize others in front of your own selfishness. Frankly I don’t think most golfers can do it because I see a lot of spoiled selfishness out there that destroys the game for everyone else around them.
 

Slow play is an issue to be sure, but to stereotype golfers as "spoiled retired guys with nothing better to do then to play slow and selfishly hold up others on a golf course " is completely inappropriate.  And please, don't suggest that you didn't stereotype them, the phrase "nothing but...." pretty much does just that.  I definitely know a few of those slow-playing retired guys, but I know a bunch of very quick retired gents as well.  And I know a few slow selfish young guys as well.  

[Kor.A.Door]

18 hours ago, revkev said:

 

Actually I disagree - flag in is tremendously time saving if everyone does it - 3 some yesterday, 305 playing time, everyone left the flag in - we would haven been under three hours if we didn’t have to wait on another threesome for 2 1/2 holes. They were taking the flag out - among other things that slowed them down. BTW no one in my group played particularly well in brutal conditions so it’s not as if good play sped us up - 84,91,95 were our scores.




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True, It should save time if the rule is used, it won’t save time if it isn’t used, that’s why I said in the cases of long putts, since I think that’s where most folks will go ahead and leave it in. I don’t know of too many people who will leave it in on putts from 15 feet or so. I think the more and more comfortable people become with the new rules, it will save time, right now I think people are not sure what they want to do, I like the idea of having the flag in, and in a lot of cases I will leave it in, if a playing partner wants it out, I just leave it out instead of going back and forth putting it in and taking it out. 

[palvord]

The new rules are going to dominate the discussion or analysis until there is enough play that has happened to change the conversation to what is happening on the course.

Remember at the beginning of the NFL season the conversation was dominated by what is actually a roughing the passer penalty? As the season went on, that died out. Now the conversation is about what are the referees actually doing?


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[Kor.A.Door]

14 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Slow play is an issue to be sure, but to stereotype golfers as "spoiled retired guys with nothing better to do then to play slow and selfishly hold up others on a golf course " is completely inappropriate.  And please, don't suggest that you didn't stereotype them, the phrase "nothing but...." pretty much does just that.  I definitely know a few of those slow-playing retired guys, but I know a bunch of very quick retired gents as well.  And I know a few slow selfish young guys as well.  

True. 

[JohnSmalls]

Funny. Of the times that I am stuck behind a slow group, not once has it been because of the slow play of the "saved enough money to stop working at an advanced age" club.  It has always been because of us, young guys.

 

I do find the time spent on golf broadcasts to be focused more than my liking on the new rules.  But, I do think they will speed up the game.  It's still strange to me, but I am a fan of leaving the flag in.  Now only if people would realize that playing 2-3 balls every swing wasn't included in the new rules.

[revkev]

On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 2:18 PM, Middler said:

Makes sense on paper, but I'll be surprised if everyone in a foursome much less everyone playing does the same thing. I play in two leagues, 60+ and 160+ players, and time wasting idiosyncrasies are not at all uncommon. I usually know how pleasant/unpleasant and how fast I'll be playing as soon as I see the weekly pairing and tee times - but I don't let it bother me. I don't think new rules will change that in any substantial way.

Yes we have some of these folks in our league as well - I love my league, love the guys and gals in it but I do know right away how it's going to be when I see whose in front of me.   I live with it -

Having written that I'm the "rules guy" for one of my league in that I write a monthly little blog during the season.  I'm going to write something on the flag in rule complete with a link to the MGS test - it's already to go in fact - I submitted it to the chair of the handicap committee who posts it - he said he will post in late March. 

It encourages groups to leave the flag on - honestly our offenders are guys who have fairly significant side bets going during the round.  That league is individual and we putt everything out - so they take forever lining up putts on greens that they have played 100's of rounds on - the ball always breaks towards 62 Avenue people - always.

They aren't selfish people - they just get caught up in the spirit of their competition.  We can still generally play in under 4 and a half hours - not exactly a snails pace but I know that it could be faster without impacting anyone's score.

[tony@CIC]

Slow play is an issue to be sure, but to stereotype golfers as "spoiled retired guys with nothing better to do then to play slow and selfishly hold up others on a golf course " is completely inappropriate.  And please, don't suggest that you didn't stereotype them, the phrase "nothing but...." pretty much does just that.  I definitely know a few of those slow-playing retired guys, but I know a bunch of very quick retired gents as well.  And I know a few slow selfish young guys as well.  

Well said! As one of those retired guys, I can attest to our league guys playing pretty fast.

Why do we have slow play at our club? More often or not it's guests of our members who consider it an outing for the day. They spend more time smoking and joking not to mention a couple of trips to the snack bar to refill their beer coolers. I do fault our club for not having someone on the course moving these people along.


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[EthanSterlingPrice]

So I’m 25, youngest in my group of regulars at home with the oldest being in his late 70s (and he’s a legitimate 10hdcp). We had a group of 5 this last week where 2 players were undecided about the flagstick being in or out, one always in, and one always out. In spite of some flagstick hot potatoes finished our round in just under 3 and a half hours with scores of 73, 75, 79, 85 and 98(Had to find the scorecard for reference). Between the number of golfers and juggling the flag we still managed what I would call a decent pace for a group that size so I think any pace issues that arise from this can be solved. We had it so that the first to hole out manned the flagstick and added and removed as needed. I’m not a fan of the new rule for grounding your club in the sand but that’s for another rant.

There is hope for us yet... I think...


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[DaveP043]

6 hours ago, EthanSterlingPrice said:

So I’m 25, youngest in my group of regulars at home with the oldest being in his late 70s (and he’s a legitimate 10hdcp). We had a group of 5 this last week where 2 players were undecided about the flagstick being in or out, one always in, and one always out. In spite of some flagstick hot potatoes finished our round in just under 3 and a half hours with scores of 73, 75, 79, 85 and 98(Had to find the scorecard for reference). Between the number of golfers and juggling the flag we still managed what I would call a decent pace for a group that size so I think any pace issues that arise from this can be solved. We had it so that the first to hole out manned the flagstick and added and removed as needed. I’m not a fan of the new rule for grounding your club in the sand but that’s for another rant.

There is hope for us yet... I think...

I agree with you about the flagstick.  As long we players communicate clearly and act appropriately, there's no reason that handling the flagstick should slow things down.  It will require some changes in habits (never put the flagstick on the ground until everyone is done with it), but that's it

Concerning the rule about grounding your club in the bunker, I hope you understand that you still can't test the sand, or touch the sand when making a practice swing, or ground the club in front of or behind the ball, or touch the sand in your backswing.   

[fixyurdivot]

19 hours ago, JohnSmalls said:

Funny. Of the times that I am stuck behind a slow group, not once has it been because of the slow play of the "saved enough money to stop working at an advanced age" club.  It has always been because of us, young guys.

You just described our most recent slow play experience last week.  A group of younger guys, 3 playing from black and one from white.  Two of the three had no business playing from black and, based on what we could see from the others fairway play, he was questionable as well.  But, you could tell they loved the idea of HUGE drives above all else and were enjoying themselves. We were just a group of retired guys for which, as a general rule, making a horse-race out of a golf round isn't a priority.  So, we just watched the show and enjoyed our round.

Quite frankly just as some here are complaining about and advocating for faster play, a good many enjoy a more leisurely pace.  There seems to be a whole new everything faster revolution going on.  I personally think it is a spillover from the social media, always on, always connected, aspect of current times. Having just spent 30 years in corporate hyperdrive mode, I for one like being off that merry-go-round and don't want to see the need for speed ruin a game I've played and enjoyed for over 50 years.  

Worse, these "changes" take on the feel of a populist movement - which tend to split the audience into groups.  We're starting to see this already in the "pin in or pin out" discussion.  Much to be said for the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" IMHO.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Middler said:

I’m sure I’ll continue to hover the club behind the ball in traps for a long time, if not forever. Old habits can be hard to break. But if I ever touch the sand, it’s nice to know there won’t be a penalty.

I always thought the “testing the sand” with your club argument was a little thin since you can test the sand all you want with your feet? Maybe that’s why they changed the rule?

It still is a penalty to touch the sand in these situations:

Quote

(1) When Touching Sand Results in Penalty. Before making a stroke at a ball in a bunker, a player must not:

• Deliberately touch sand in the bunker with a hand, club, rake or other object to test the condition of the sand to learn information for the next stroke, or

• Touch sand in the bunker with a club:

  • In the area right in front of or right behind the ball (except as allowed under Rule 7.1a in fairly searching for a ball or under Rule 12.2a in removing a loose impediment or movable obstruction),

  • In making a practice swing, or

  • In making the backswing for a stroke.

This is part of Rule 12.2.b

[EthanSterlingPrice]

I agree with you about the flagstick.  As long we players communicate clearly and act appropriately, there's no reason that handling the flagstick should slow things down.  It will require some changes in habits (never put the flagstick on the ground until everyone is done with it), but that's it
Concerning the rule about grounding your club in the bunker, I hope you understand that you still can't test the sand, or touch the sand when making a practice swing, or ground the club in front of or behind the ball, or touch the sand in your backswing.   

Yessir I got it covered. I play competitive so the first I heard of the changes I made sure to know exactly what was what



In the bag
Driver: Callaway Rogue Subzero 9.5 Stiff flex
3 wood: Callaway Rogue Subzero 15 degree
Hybrids: 17 degree titleist 816 h2
Irons: Ben Hogan Ptx 22-46 degree (4-pw)stiff flex standard lie
Wedges: Callaway Mac Daddy 4 50,54,58 degrees
Putter: Odyssey EXO seven

Gig’em Aggies!

[Kor.A.Door]

As I am sitting here watching the Farmers Insurance Open I am seeing a couple groups taking the flag out and putting it back in. It occurred to me that there is no way that this will slow play down at all. They take forever to actually putt the ball, the caddie has at least 2 minutes to put the flag and and 2 more minutes for the next caddie to pull it back out. The time has not changed because they haven’t sped up the actual putting. 

[alfriday101]

When viewing golf on TV, I like it when they leave the pin in.  Even with a high-def TV, I sometimes have trouble picking up the hole as a the ball is on its way.  With the pin in, I get a better idea about the putt when it is farther from the hole.  

 

On short putts, it doesn’t matter, unless the camera angle odscures the hole. 

[revkev]

I agree with you about the flagstick.  As long we players communicate clearly and act appropriately, there's no reason that handling the flagstick should slow things down.  It will require some changes in habits (never put the flagstick on the ground until everyone is done with it), but that's it
Concerning the rule about grounding your club in the bunker, I hope you understand that you still can't test the sand, or touch the sand when making a practice swing, or ground the club in front of or behind the ball, or touch the sand in your backswing.   

Or kiss your date at 1157 on the night of a full moon. :)

Sorry I couldn’t help it.

Nick Faldo was just talking about a group that did a study and how he’s going to always leave the pin in. I wonder who that group was?


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[Golfixation]

On 1/23/2019 at 1:45 AM, EthanSterlingPrice said:

So I’m 25, youngest in my group of regulars at home with the oldest being in his late 70s (and he’s a legitimate 10hdcp). We had a group of 5 this last week where 2 players were undecided about the flagstick being in or out, one always in, and one always out. In spite of some flagstick hot potatoes finished our round in just under 3 and a half hours with scores of 73, 75, 79, 85 and 98(Had to find the scorecard for reference). Between the number of golfers and juggling the flag we still managed what I would call a decent pace for a group that size so I think any pace issues that arise from this can be solved. We had it so that the first to hole out manned the flagstick and added and removed as needed. I’m not a fan of the new rule for grounding your club in the sand but that’s for another rant.

This was actually what I was worried about with this flag rule. The original intention was to allow for players with a putt on the front of the green the ability to putt to a back pin without fear of getting a 2 stroke penalty if they happen to hit the pin.

With the discussion changing to how the rule can give a competitive advantage, especially on tour I was worried it would slow down play. In a recent article, I wrote about a scenario where Bryson and Justin Thomas are paired together. One wants to leave it in, and one has been quoted saying he can't take himself seriously if he did. I'm sure this will play out on tour more than once.

All this considered, I still think we can agree that the need for juggling the flagstick still seems a little odd.

[Kenny B]

Is everyone aware that the "alignment rule" Rule 10.2b(4), that has been in the news lately, applies to not only caddies but partners in a team event??

Of course it applies to your partner in a better-ball tournament, but it also means that three amateur players watching the break of a putt from behind their teammate in a 4-man scramble is illegal under the rule when the tournament states USGA rules in effect.

[DaveP043]

8 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Is everyone aware that the "alignment rule" Rule 10.2b(4), that has been in the news lately, applies to not only caddies but partners in a team event??

Of course it applies to your partner in a better-ball tournament, but it also means that three amateur players watching the break of a putt from behind their teammate in a 4-man scramble is illegal under the rule when the tournament states USGA rules in effect.

I believe a scramble is still not a format sanctioned under the rules of golf, so you can use whatever rules you like in a scramble and not have an issue with the Rules of Golf.  If you look at Section 9 under Committee Procedures, you'll find a mention of Scramble formats, but I cannot find any recommended modifications to the rules for Scrambles.

Even before the new rules, your partner was not allowed to stand behind you as you were making a stroke, and that hasn't changed at all.  They only require that you move away a bit earlier.

[Kenny B]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I believe a scramble is still not a format sanctioned under the rules of golf, so you can use whatever rules you like in a scramble and not have an issue with the Rules of Golf.  If you look at Section 9 under Committee Procedures, you'll find a mention of Scramble formats, but I cannot find any recommended modifications to the rules for Scrambles.

Even before the new rules, your partner was not allowed to stand behind you as you were making a stroke, and that hasn't changed at all.  They only require that you move away a bit earlier.

Granted.  That was why I said "... when the tournament states USGA rules in effect".  Most tournaments I have played in the past have said that. Tournament organizers probably should make a reference to this rule.   Also, the pros play scrambles in the "silly season".  Will they not be following USGA rules?

 

[DaveP043]

3 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Granted.  That was why I said "... when the tournament states USGA rules in effect".  Most tournaments I have played in the past have said that. Tournament organizers probably should make a reference to this rule.   Also, the pros play scrambles in the "silly season".  Will they not be following USGA rules?

I didn't notice that last mention of USGA rules, and I can't say I remember any statement about USGA rules when I've played scrambles.  Wouldn't USGA rules require each player to drop his ball for shots other than tee shots and putts, where normally we place?  And normally you have to play from the same "kind" of area, fairway or rough, so you'd have to sub-divide the General Area.  I wonder how many other rules would have to be changed for a USGA-legal scramble.

And now that you mention it, I do remember pros playing scramble rounds.  I bet they have the rules for the event spelled out in pretty complete detail, I'd love to see just what the organizers do for those.

[Kenny B]

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

I didn't notice that last mention of USGA rules, and I can't say I remember any statement about USGA rules when I've played scrambles.  Wouldn't USGA rules require each player to drop his ball for shots other than tee shots and putts, where normally we place?  And normally you have to play from the same "kind" of area, fairway or rough, so you'd have to sub-divide the General Area.  I wonder how many other rules would have to be changed for a USGA-legal scramble.

And now that you mention it, I do remember pros playing scramble rounds.  I bet they have the rules for the event spelled out in pretty complete detail, I'd love to see just what the organizers do for those.

You are right about the other aspects of the rules.  I think it was just convenient for the tournament organizers to simply state the USGA rules for those situations that need a "how-to"; after all, "everyone knows how to play a scramble."  lol.  

They might have to make clarifications.  I wonder if we could get a rules sheet for the pros' scramble events?