MPR: The Single Digit Project

[PlaidJacket]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

So far this winter, we've had something more than 10 feet of snow here. But the plus side is that we're in the middle of a warm spell: the high temps for the next 10 days are all right at or just above freezing

Holy cow! I couldn't imagine 10' of snow. Get out man. Get out. 

[GolfSpy MPR]

40 minutes ago, PlaidJacket said:

Holy cow! I couldn't imagine 10' of snow. Get out man. Get out. 

No need to use your imagination. It looks like this:

[PlaidJacket]

4 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

No need to use your imagination. It looks like this:

My goodness. That's incredible. about a week ago we had 1/8". I played golf later that afternoon. LOL

[tony@CIC]

No need to use your imagination. It looks like this:

Life is too short for that kind of snow. We've had a total of about 6" this year and that's too much for me.


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[GolfSpy MPR]

Continues to be cold here, but we haven't had a ton more snow, which gives some reason for hope that we'll be able to golf again sometime. It was barely 20° here today, so it was still really cold in the garage. But I had a few tasks I wanted to accomplish on the SkyTrak today.

The first is that I got a new hitting mat: a Fiberbuilt Flight Deck. On getting it, I found that it's essentially an overgrown bathroom tub scrubber. The grass is made of stiff bristles. By reviews, it's supposed to give more accurate spin numbers and be easier on the old elbows. I'm hoping to build up a better platform for it, but my initial impressions are positive.

The second is that I wanted to do a little club test. A couple years back, I purchased an older model Callaway Prototype Utility iron at 24°. That's the same loft as my G700 5-iron, so I wanted to pit them against each other and see if one or the other gave me better numbers as I put my bag together for the upcoming season.

The results were interesting, and mostly conclusive. I hit ten shots with each club, alternating in sets of five. I set the green at 190 yards, though given the temps, I wasn't shocked that I didn't quite get there. The clubs ended up with identical ball speeds and carry distances. The G700 had a slightly higher launch angle, higher peak height, steeper descent angle, and slightly higher spin. All of this combined for a slightly shorter rollout.

On these numbers, it would seem a slam dunk for the G700, and I'm almost fully decided that that's where I'm going. The only win for the Callaway was in dispersion: the shots from the utility iron had a consistent grouping on the left side of the green. The G700 missed a bit on either side (though certainly with a tendency on the left side as well).

The final thing I wanted to do was a wedge matrix. I've done this before, but I've never fully committed to it the way I should have. After getting in on the Precision Pro test from last season, I think I'm in a really good position to commit to locking down series of shots for everything inside 100 yards. I've always adopted a bit less aggressive swing on these partial wedges; I think earlier in this thread, I have my results from another wedge matrix, and the numbers are much longer. Here, they are shorter, but the gapping is tighter. This is true even of the "full" swings: these are not normal full swings, with a complete weight shift and hinge; they are full short game swings, keeping my weight on the front foot throughout and using less wrist. That means I should have one more gear with each wedge, using a real full swing.

I did this hitting five shots of each type; when I do it again, I'm going to have it discard outliers (including a couple shanks), which makes sense for this kind of exercise.

There's a lot here I like; there's a solid sequence of 5-yard increments through the middle of this matrix. I have a gap at 60-65 yards which I'll have to figure out. I did today's matrix hitting the shots without looking at SkyTrak's results; I wanted to focus on hitting (for instance) a 1/2 swing SW, not hitting a particular yardage. As I work on this further, I want to start associating each swing with a yardage that I'm trying to hit.

[edingc]

12 hours ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

The first is that I got a new hitting mat: a Fiberbuilt Flight Deck.

The range I go to has Fiberbuilt inserts for the hitting areas on several of their mats. They are definitely easier on the shoulders and elbows than the more solid mats, in my experience at least. About a month ago, I really tweaked my shoulder hitting a fat shot on one of the solid ones. Further downsides of winter golf...

[Wedgie]

The range I go to has Fiberbuilt inserts for the hitting areas on several of their mats. They are definitely easier on the shoulders and elbows than the more solid mats, in my experience at least. About a month ago, I really tweaked my shoulder hitting a fat shot on one of the solid ones. Further downsides of winter golf...

 

I purchased the Fiberbuilt Flight Deck for my Skytrak and love it. I played 72 yesterday and no elbow pain. Not only is the mat forgiving on the joints it really seems to allow for accurate readings. Only downside was the hitting grass was about a 1/4 inch higher than where you strand on mine so I purchased a big rubber mat to slide under where you stand to level it.

 

 

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[GolfSpy MPR]

On 2/9/2020 at 6:38 AM, edingc said:

The range I go to has Fiberbuilt inserts for the hitting areas on several of their mats. They are definitely easier on the shoulders and elbows than the more solid mats, in my experience at least. About a month ago, I really tweaked my shoulder hitting a fat shot on one of the solid ones. Further downsides of winter golf...

 

On 2/9/2020 at 7:42 AM, Wedgie said:

 

I purchased the Fiberbuilt Flight Deck for my Skytrak and love it. I played 72 yesterday and no elbow pain. Not only is the mat forgiving on the joints it really seems to allow for accurate readings. Only downside was the hitting grass was about a 1/4 inch higher than where you strand on mine so I purchased a big rubber mat to slide under where you stand to level it.

 

 

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Like @Wedgie said, I also have a double-thick mat (turf on top of those interlocking foam mats) to get myself level with the Flight Deck. I'd say the only issue I find with it so far is that because it's forgiving on the joints, it's also a bit forgiving on the fat shots. You have to pay attention to strike so that you don't think you're hitting the ball well when you're not.

[GolfSpy MPR]

Also thought I'd throw in a little more detail on my Callaway Utility vs. PING G700 5 iron test, now that I'm back at my computer with the SkyTrak data. I've exported the 10 shots I hit with each, and I set up the spreadsheet to show both the averages for all ten and also the averages that exclude the most offline shot and the lowest ball speed shot with each.

Here are the raw numbers:

As I mentioned in the earlier post, you can see that the ball speed numbers are essentially identical, with or without the bad shots. The G700 has a small but consistent advantage in launch angle and spin rate (I'm obviously not a high spin player, and the G700 are not high spin irons). I have a left miss with both clubs, but we'll see the dispersion chart next to get a clearer picture of that.

Carry distances are very close, with a slight edge to the G700. But the higher launch angle, higher spin, higher peak, and steeper descent of the G700s get them about a yard less rollout, which is a plus at this slot of the bag.

And here are the dispersion patterns:

The green is the Callaway and the red is the PING. Clearly, the Callaway offers a tighter circle; the PING has a broader left-right pattern. But I'm not ready to say that those misses are really on the club (sample size, etc.). Each club has a strong grouping of a majority of shots (9 for the Callaway with one left miss, 7 for the PING with 2 lefts and a right). If you just focus on those groupings (which I suspect might be more indicative of the club and might better reflect mid-season form), the G700 offers just as tight a pattern and one that is closer to the center line.

I have to say that, as one that has never had the opportunity to go in for a fitting, this was an enjoyable exercise.

[GolfSpy MPR]

I have this habit that each winter, when the snow is deepest, I feel really good about my putting. It's that time of year!

I've brought my PuttOut up to my office, bought a relatively cheap putting mat, and I leave them set up in the center aisle of the church. I have my Evnroll Tour Stroke Trainer at the church as well (the vast majority of the time, I'm the only person in the building during the workday). Every so often, I'll get up a roll a few putts, typically until I get a perfect. Sometimes I'll take the opportunity to listen to a theology podcast and doing a little practice.

All that to say: right now, my putting feels very solid.

Also, it's still not a great stroke. The topic has come up a few times in this thread, but my putting alignment is bad. The correct line looks left to me, so I almost inevitably set up with my putter a couple degrees open to the correct line. It appears I'm in good company; Jon Rahm, one of the best putters on Tour, doesn't use a line because the correct line looks left to him as well.

This discussion of the merits (or even existence) of a straight back, straight through stroke, and this post from @Mr. 82 on his putting stroke, prompted me to do my own video, with analysis. I've used a couple different swing analyzer gadgets, and they confirm what the camera sees here. I read Pelz early on in my golf obsession, and because of him really tried to get a SBST stroke. As others pointed out in the other thread, a true SBST is likely not possible without compensations. Mine is to take the putter outside the line on the backstroke.

But I've gotten to a point that all these errors offset each other pretty well.

I'm coming to the conclusion that there are basically two approaches to golf improvement. One is to make one's swing (or stroke) conform to the perfect ideal. The other is to know your own swing and stroke, know your tendencies, and to groove a predictable result from them so that you can hit target. With my putting, I'm pretty well aiming for the second approach.

[GolfSpy MPR]

HERE COMES A NEW CHALLENGER!

I've had my G700s in the bag since July 2018, when I tested them for the forum. I won't say that they've revolutionized my game; if my game has strengths, they are my iron play and putting, because I can practice those at home. But the G700s offered some advantages over the clubs they replaced (a set of Adams XTD Tour irons): about a club more distance and a bunch of distance forgiveness on less-than-perfect strikes.

But literally for years, I've been intrigued by the concept of single-length irons. I'm not sure that there's a single club category that does more to appeal to my inner gear nerd. I've never had the opportunity to test them; as I've mentioned too often here, I'm not near anywhere where fitting and testing are available.

But thanks to @GolfSpy Stroker, a longstanding dream about to be realized: he shipped me his set of Wishon Sterling Single Length Irons! (That in itself is a story; he shipped the clubs two weeks ago, they disappeared for a bit in the USPS system, and they should finally arrive tomorrow.) (Also need to shout out @Berg Ryman, who discussed doing the same thing, but Stroker beat him to it. So many quality guys on this forum!)

What I find fascinating about single length is the combination of offsetting pros and cons:

• PRO: consistent length and setup logically suggests more consistent ball striking
• PRO: short long irons should definitely help in finding the center of the face
• CON: short long irons should also diminish ball speed, decrease spin, and lower trajectory, none of which is good
• PRO: but if I'm hitting the center more regularly, that increases ball speed, and the consistency might offset the drawbacks
• CON: on short irons/wedges, lengthening the shaft should decrease consistency in finding the center of the face
• PRO: but maybe it won't, if I have a consistent swing with a single length
• PRO: short irons and wedges will launch higher and with much more spin, theoretically increasing control

But I now have a chance to move my thoughts on single length from theory to actual practice. In the weeks ahead (we likely still have two months until golf begins here), I plan to SkyTrak my G700s and these Sterlings thoroughly. Not only will I be looking at distances, but launch/descent angles, peak height, spin, and especially the dispersion circles. I'll be able to do SkyTrak skills assessments with each set, and see which one gives me a better estimated handicap.

I'm really looking forward to this experiment, and I'll definitely be keeping everyone informed!

[THEZIPR23]

On 2/15/2020 at 12:13 PM, GolfSpy MPR said:

I'm coming to the conclusion that there are basically two approaches to golf improvement. One is to make one's swing (or stroke) conform to the perfect ideal. The other is to know your own swing and stroke, know your tendencies, and to groove a predictable result from them so that you can hit target. With my putting, I'm pretty well aiming for the second approach.

This is golf in a nutshell. One of the main reasons I like Adam Young's stuff. 

[cnosil]

Looking forward to your thoughts on the single length. Not sure I agree with all you pros and cons based on my limited testing but those are your thoughts to prove or disprove.

[StrokerAce]

11 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Looking forward to your thoughts on the single length. Not sure I agree with all you pros and cons based on my limited testing but those are your thoughts to prove or disprove.

Used them for a few years - anyone has any questions let me know.  

I'll be keenly interested in the results.

[THEZIPR23]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

HERE COMES A NEW CHALLENGER!

I've had my G700s in the bag since July 2018, when I tested them for the forum. I won't say that they've revolutionized my game; if my game has strengths, they are my iron play and putting, because I can practice those at home. But the G700s offered some advantages over the clubs they replaced (a set of Adams XTD Tour irons): about a club more distance and a bunch of distance forgiveness on less-than-perfect strikes.

But literally for years, I've been intrigued by the concept of single-length irons. I'm not sure that there's a single club category that does more to appeal to my inner gear nerd. I've never had the opportunity to test them; as I've mentioned too often here, I'm not near anywhere where fitting and testing are available.

But thanks to @GolfSpy Stroker, a longstanding dream about to be realized: he shipped me his set of Wishon Sterling Single Length Irons! (That in itself is a story; he shipped the clubs two weeks ago, they disappeared for a bit in the USPS system, and they should finally arrive tomorrow.) (Also need to shout out @Berg Ryman, who discussed doing the same thing, but Stroker beat him to it. So many quality guys on this forum!)

What I find fascinating about single length is the combination of offsetting pros and cons:

• PRO: consistent length and setup logically suggests more consistent ball striking
• PRO: short long irons should definitely help in finding the center of the face
• CON: short long irons should also diminish ball speed, decrease spin, and lower trajectory, none of which is good
• PRO: but if I'm hitting the center more regularly, that increases ball speed, and the consistency might offset the drawbacks
• CON: on short irons/wedges, lengthening the shaft should decrease consistency in finding the center of the face
• PRO: but maybe it won't, if I have a consistent swing with a single length
• PRO: short irons and wedges will launch higher and with much more spin, theoretically increasing control

But I now have a chance to move my thoughts on single length from theory to actual practice. In the weeks ahead (we likely still have two months until golf begins here), I plan to SkyTrak my G700s and these Sterlings thoroughly. Not only will I be looking at distances, but launch/descent angles, peak height, spin, and especially the dispersion circles. I'll be able to do SkyTrak skills assessments with each set, and see which one gives me a better estimated handicap.

I'm really looking forward to this experiment, and I'll definitely be keeping everyone informed!

I have been thinking about OL for a long time, just not sure I have the cajones to go try them...

[MIgregb]

2 hours ago, GolfSpy Stroker said:

Used them for a few years - anyone has any questions let me know.  

 

You being a 12 hdcp I'm assuming you once use conventional length clubs. Curious to know whether you found making the change to be difficult. Thanks!

[StrokerAce]

15 hours ago, MIgregb said:

You being a 12 hdcp I'm assuming you once use conventional length clubs. Curious to know whether you found making the change to be difficult. Thanks!

I had used conventional length prior to this and there is an adjustment period.
The common thing that I read was it was about 6 rounds.  I didn't find it took that long.  
I do practice more than 1x per week so that helped.
I'd say after about 2 rounds I got the hang of it.... the big thing for me was that you don't change your swing going from long to short irons.  Once I figured that out the 5 iron was as easy as the PW.

Fitting is absolutely crucial with these.
With the shaft all a particular length (mine was 7i but you can choose between 6 and eight) the shorter irons tend to go higher and the longer irons tend to go flatter.  That's not the club that's simple physics.  That's why the shaft and club design and selection is so important.  
There's loads of info on it and Cobra, Edel, Wishon all handle it a little differently.

[GolfSpy MPR]

After two weeks of getting shuffled through USPS terminals through the northeast quadrant of our nation, the single length irons arrived in the Riley household this afternoon!

A bit more writing for the next couple of hours, and then home for some initial SkyTrak testing!

[GolfSpy MPR]

So let's get this established first: what are the loft comparisons between the Sterlings and the G700s? Let's start with the Sterlings:

And here are the G700s:

The two sets overlap at the 5i, which is going to be interesting for testing. While the Sterlings step down in consistent 4° increments, the PING gaps are 3°, 3.5°, 4.5°, and then 5°.

I'm certainly happy that as far as lofts are concerned, the top and bottom clubs are nearly identical. I've built my current set makeup around my G700s, and it would be nice (if the Sterlings were to bump them) not to have to rebuild my wedge and hybrid/FW setups.

[GolfSpy MPR]

Had a really nice weekend weather-wise here; temps reached almost to the mid-40s. This meant that SkyTrak in the unheated garage was much more pleasant, and I got a lot of shots in.

Unfortunately, so did Kirke, so I had a hard time kicking him off long enough to do focused testing with the Sterlings. Temperatures are headed back down right now, but are supposed to rebound again this weekend. My plan for LM testing is going to focus on two SkyTrak features: gap testing and skills assessment.

My plan is to do at least two rounds of gap testing. SkyTrak tracks the distance and dispersion with each club and graphs everything. I plan to do two rounds of the gap test, 5-PW, with both my G700s and the Sterlings. While I'm doing it, I'm planning to avoid watching the results along the way. That way, I'm not trying to hit a specific target yardage. I just want to put a clean swing on each club and see what kind of results I'm getting.

With the gap test, I'll be looking for three things. The first, obviously, is usable gapping between each iron; this is especially something I'll be scrutinizing at the top end of the bag. Both sets of irons present reasons for concern: the 3° gapping of the G700s, and the standard concerns with single length irons of generating adequate ball speed in the long irons.

The second aspect of the gap test that is important is how the set itself fits into the rest of my bag. I've currently got a hybrid that's covering the 200-210 slot and a GW that's my club from 100-105. So I need my 5-PW, in whichever set, to fit in between these (or else I'll have to rebuild my bag).

And finally, I'll be giving special attention to the dispersion numbers in the gap test. This is where the single-length irons ought to have an advantage over the variable length SGI irons.

After I finish the gap tests, I'll know the stock yardages for each club, and that will allow me to take an intelligent approach to the skills assessment. I'll likely set it up so the target greens fit with my current bag setup:

• PW: 120
• 9i: 135
• 8i: 150
• 7i: 165
• 6i: 180
• 5i: 190

Speaking of skills assessments, I squeezed one in this past weekend, using my current set makeup. I was pretty pleased with the results:

[THEZIPR23]

[GolfSpy MPR]

45 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Thank you for repeatedly not telling me that.  

[GolfSpy MPR]

Got in a round of gap testing today with my G700s and the Sterlings. Here are the results in carry distance only. Which is the G700 and which is the Sterling, and which would you pick?

I did both sets without watching the screen at all, so not only was I not aiming for any particular distance, I wasn't adjusting direction based on previous swing results.

[tchat07]

Got in a round of gap testing today with my G700s and the Sterlings. Here are the results in carry distance only. Which is the G700 and which is the Sterling, and which would you pick?


I did both sets without watching the screen at all, so not only was I not aiming for any particular distance, I wasn't adjusting direction based on previous swing results.

How many shots with each club?

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[GolfSpy MPR]

6 minutes ago, tchat07 said:

How many shots with each club?

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5 with each, and it kept the best 4.

[Wedgie]

I’ll guess the first picture is Sterling single length and I’d select that grouping over the Pings.


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[MIgregb]

I agree with Wedgie taking the 1st group; they're more consistent. But I'm struggling with which is the Sterling and which is the Ping. Just based on the lower consistency & higher shot dispersion, I'm guessing the 2nd group of irons are the Sterlings. Your regular clubs are probably more consistent until you've had some time with the Sterlings and I understand a good fitting is even more important to performance with one-length irons vs. conventional so they may not be fitted that well to you. I'm actually surprised that there isn't a much greater difference because of the reasons I'm already mentioned (little playing time, not fitted to you). Be interesting to learn which is which. Thanks for the test!

[tchat07]

I would go with the sterlings for now but I also would hit more shots to get more data. That's just me though haha.

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[GolfSpy MPR]

OK, I went too long leaving the cliffhanger about which set was which. Takes a bit to write the analysis.

In the above post, the single-length Sterlings were the first charts, the G700s the second. In that first test, I think the Sterlings were the undisputed winner. Not only did they have better gapping, but the G700s displayed their pronounced hook tendency. Again, I purposefully did this test blind; I was not looking at the results, and so I was making no adjustments between swings to try to hit target.

For me, I didn't find the adjustment to the single-length look to be an issue. Yes, when you first grab the 5i or the PW, the loft does look odd on a 7i shaft. But seriously: I play the G700s; am I really in position to look at a club and dismiss it by its appearance?

I repeated the gap test one day after doing the first gap test. I'm going to discount the results of this one a bit more. The second day was last Sunday; I had finished three sermons/teaching times, and after having hit a lot of shots on Saturday, I was clearly tired and my strike was suffering. By the time I finished the two gap tests on Sunday, I was frustrated more than anything. Here's a short version of the results:

In the second test, I did watch the results and make adjustments. This had a curious result: the G700s actually averaged 4 yards right of the target line. I think that's important. Blind tests have their place, but the fact that I can adjust my swing and hit target with a club also has to matter. I don't play blind on the course.

Even so, even in this second table, I think the gapping of the Sterlings is better than the G700s.

This past weekend, I also did a SkyTrak Skills Assessment with the two sets. In order to help even things out, I set it up to ask for shots from 110–190 yards in 10-yard increments. Doing it this way ensured that I would have in-between shots with both sets.

There's a little issue with the data here: while doing the Sterling test (which I did second), I hit a shank. Ultimately, I decided that shanks are a stupid way to evaluate a club (unless I had a pronounced tendency to shank one set and not the other). So I deleted those shots and rehit them. Unfortunately, I hadn't done the same with the G700s, and I had two shanks at the 140 distance which really inflated my score there.

But even with the shanks in the G700 data, the PINGs won this head-to-head battle:

The G700s:

And the Sterlings:

Even so, there are stats here that favor the Sterlings. Dispersion remains tighter with the single-length irons. The G700s have far more left-right variability from shot to shot, whereas the Sterlings in general keep that number in the single figures. And on average, the Sterlings finished closer to the hole—which is kinda the point, right?

[Wedgie]

Thanks for the update.  When I played single length irons I felt like the biggest advantage was distance control.  I remember having a round with 11 birdie putts inside 10 feet.  I missed every single putt for what it's worth and I still shot like an 80.  I went all in and didn't have the club head speed to hit anything above the 6 iron.  If I did it all over again I'd go single length for LW - 6 and variable for everything else.  Keep it up....this is the year!