Handicap Shenanigans

[fixyurdivot]

Following yesterday's round, the groups were at the clubhouse drinking beer and carrying on about the day's play as usual.  I listened in on a rather heated debate amongst a few of our Canadian players regarding handicaps - or more specifically the manipulation of them.  These guys all happen to play the same men's club/course on Vancouver Island.  The crux of the discussion was how a certain player X or player Y were gaming the system.  Players coming from other courses to play an event at their course as well well players from there own course. They dove deep into "qualifying vs. non-qualifying", "home vs. away" scores, and subject matter about this I'd quite frankly never heard about. That people cheat and manipulate almost any system known is of no surprise, but it seems golf handicaps are perhaps more so? 

I've not kept a USGA handicap for over 20 years, mostly because I don't play in events.  My listed handicap is based on my average score over the past couple of years - following retirement and when I started playing more regularly.  It does not take into account course rating, slope, tee position (always white or equivalent for me), etc.  After listening to the discussion yesterday, I'm not sure I want to establish one.

What have been your experiences with the handicap system?  We often hear the term "sandbagger" thrown about - is that just sour grapes talking or is it a prevailing problem?

 

[GB13]

I think any "honor system" can and will be manipulated by dishonest people. Not everyone will manipulate it, just as not everyone will lie and cheat. If you are willing to cheat (sandbag, falisify scores for a better cap, etc.) for something as insignificant as a golf handicap, chances are, you'll have some unsavory qualities transfer over to other areas of your life. No system can eliminate all cheaters. The handicap system will continue to be manipulated by dishonest people. Nothing can change that.

I'd be willing to say, 99% of people using the handicap system are honest and using it for its intended purpose; to provide an opportunity to evaluate your game, and level the playing field for all. 

If you don't plan on playing tournaments that require a handicap, I don't see any reason for you to get one. The only other purpose is to monitor your game, but it sounds like your doing okay tracking your scores. 

[criley4way]

I think most people are manipulating the system unintentionally. Most people I play with don't account for ESC  or will not account for a mulligan or a 2nd ball played. Many people play "local rules" like winter rules. All that said I don't think that it has much of an impact. Few people play in sanctioned events and even fewer are in contention so this mainly impacts their friends who they play with all the time and are likely scoring the same way so it will even out on their home course(s).

I think anyone who wants to improve should keep a handicap. As long as you are consistent it will serve the purpose of keeping track of your progress.

[DaveP043]

I think that where there is a real handicap committee, handicaps are a little more accurate, but I have a feeling that's confined primarily to private clubs.  I have a feeling that at many public facilities, there's really no committee, just a pro or someone else in management who runs things.  Even so, I'd like to believe that most golfers are reasonably honest.

I agree with others, there's no need to pay to maintain a handicap if you're not going to compete formally.  You can use free online services, or keep your own personal statistics to monitor your game if you like.

I'll be interested to see what happens with the new Worldwide Handicap System that will be used starting in a year.  I'd love to see the eligibility of scores restricted a little, and more emphasis on attesting of scores.  That would move us closer to the systems used in England, and help to decrease the potential to sandbag.  

 

[Mr. 82]

I’ve been involved in several member guest tournaments where the sandbagging was so obvious that the people winning their flight were heckled and booed when they won. There was also four figures awarded as the winning prize, so the intent of the sandbagging in this case was to steal serious prize money. This is where sandbagging becomes a serious crime.

But honestly, if you have a private club allowing random handicaps from guests that they simply trust the guest to be honest about their handicap, the club is then guilty of the crime if they don’t police obvious cheaters.

I maintain my handicap through the FSGA, online via the GHIN app on my phone. I maintain it for if I decide to play in FSGA events, but to be blunt, there is nothing stopping me from becoming a 20 handicap tomorrow, or a scratch golfer tomorrow. What I post to my handicap via the system in place is entirely left to my own integrity with no one monitoring it. If I really wanted to I could post 20 scores in the hundreds tomorrow and no one would know, beyond looking up my handicap history online.

Bottom line, if someone wants to cheat the system there is nothing stopping them. I do know that members of a private club by my house maintain their handicaps for club competitions and anyone there couldn’t cheat the system because everyone at that club knows everyone else and if you enter a club event and your score diverts too dramatically from your norm the club automatically adjusts your handicap to account for it.

The leason in all of this is simple. If you don’t want to get stolen from by sandbaggers, don’t enter a net tournament that offers any sort of real prizes. For me personally I just choose to play in gross tournaments only. If that means I finish dead last then so be it. At least I know I got beat on the course, and not because someone’s 79 just became a 65 because I was giving them 14 strokes.

Oh, and I’ve noticed a ton of sandbagging amongst the over 65 crowd in FSGA events. If and when I get to 65 I can promise you I won’t be playing in any net events with that age group. Old guys cheat something ridiculous. So sad honestly but I won’t be there to contribute to the lies and cheating of senior citizens on the golf course.


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[Charli]

Had a 12 shoot a 78 in decent wind and frozen greens today. Everyone says he’s not a 12 but what can you do. And i believe scores at our club are semi monitored also 

[DaveP043]

18 minutes ago, Charli said:

Had a 12 shoot a 78 in decent wind and frozen greens today. Everyone says he’s not a 12 but what can you do. And i believe scores at our club are semi monitored also 

If it's still posting season, you walk to the handicap computer  with him, congratulating him the whole way.

[Jmikecpa]

Let’s see...in the last year I had a 29 shoot gross 84, a 10 shoot even par, a 12 shoot 74 and a 9 that broke par. These rounds were all at a private club and let’s just say our handicap committee is nonexistent. When I played the 29 index I was four under standing on the 9th tee and was six down. Made two birds and an eagle rest were pars. One of the birds and the eagle were for halves and the bird I made on a par three lost to a net 1. As Club Pro Guy would say, most member guests are won in April.

I am sure that there are some clubs that handicaps are legit but playing in four to five member guests a year at some nice places I have yet to find one that they are. My club in particular we have a nice group of members that love to massage their handicap which is a shame because there are a lot of tournaments that I just refuse to play.


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[Charli]

Most people just post it on their phones. And i think if there’s any “off” score the club wants scorecards 

[fozcycle]

We have a certain Senior that has a 14 Hcap, but will shoot in the upper 70’s and take the money.....consistently......his Hcap does not go down.


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[perseveringgolfer]

One of the reasons most of our single figure guys don't enter the club handicap championship is they have zero chance of winning and very slim chance of getting through the 1st or 2nd round.

I played in the first round last year and the 15 handicapper was level par gross after 8 holes......"that's the best I've ever played he said", I've heard this cry from numerous players over the years.

Personally I find it a challenge to try and beat someone who clearly protects their handicap.

One guy last year proudly told me (as he beat me 6 & 4) he only plays in matchplay or stableford comps and his handicap has been at 9 for as long as he remembers! he was 1 over par after 16............THEN he skittered and duffed treble bogies on 17 and 18! Was that to try and show me he's really a true 9!!!!

[DaveP043]

14 hours ago, GSwag said:

IOh, and I’ve noticed a ton of sandbagging amongst the over 65 crowd in FSGA events. If and when I get to 65 I can promise you I won’t be playing in any net events with that age group. Old guys cheat something ridiculous. So sad honestly but I won’t be there to contribute to the lies and cheating of senior citizens on the golf course.
 

I see, the old guys are slow, and selfish, and now they're cheaters.  

 

[TR1PTIK]

20 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Following yesterday's round, the groups were at the clubhouse drinking beer and carrying on about the day's play as usual.  I listened in on a rather heated debate amongst a few of our Canadian players regarding handicaps - or more specifically the manipulation of them.  These guys all happen to play the same men's club/course on Vancouver Island.  The crux of the discussion was how a certain player X or player Y were gaming the system.  Players coming from other courses to play an event at their course as well well players from there own course. They dove deep into "qualifying vs. non-qualifying", "home vs. away" scores, and subject matter about this I'd quite frankly never heard about. That people cheat and manipulate almost any system known is of no surprise, but it seems golf handicaps are perhaps more so? 

I've not kept a USGA handicap for over 20 years, mostly because I don't play in events.  My listed handicap is based on my average score over the past couple of years - following retirement and when I started playing more regularly.  It does not take into account course rating, slope, tee position (always white or equivalent for me), etc.  After listening to the discussion yesterday, I'm not sure I want to establish one.

What have been your experiences with the handicap system?  We often hear the term "sandbagger" thrown about - is that just sour grapes talking or is it a prevailing problem?

 

I opted to establish a handicap last year (though technically very few of my rounds were eligible under current rules - I play most of my rounds solo). I've never played any events where I needed one beyond maybe pairing me up with a suitable partner. However, I wanted to see where I was at and use it as a metric of overall skill. I haven't been using ESC (though I may going forward), but I do try to follow all rules as closely as I can (I might get a few wrong here or there - I think many of us do). I don't feel like I'm at all trying to cheat the system in anyway and I'm certainly not sandbagging. I finally put together a spreadsheet so I can calculate my handicap on my own and will continue to do so as a way to monitor my progress on the course. Unless I start playing in tournaments where one is required, I doubt I will ever maintain an official handicap.

Curiously enough, the rating and slope information I've collected for my spreadsheet was all pulled from the USGA Course Lookup Database and I realized that their numbers do not always align with GHIN. Does anyone happen to know why this is?

[Mr. 82]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I see, the old guys are slow, selfish, and now they're cheaters.  

fixed it for ya.

[Mr. 82]

3 hours ago, perseveringgolfer said:

One guy last year proudly told me (as he beat me 6 & 4) he only plays in matchplay or stableford comps and his handicap has been at 9 for as long as he remembers! he was 1 over par after 16............THEN he skittered and duffed treble bogies on 17 and 18! Was that to try and show me he's really a true 9!!!!

Exactly what he was doing.  Match won, so make sure it looks legit, even though he's a 2 or 3 handicap in reality.

[Mr. 82]

10 hours ago, fozcycle said:

We have a certain Senior that has a 14 Hcap, but will shoot in the upper 70’s and take the money.....consistently......his Hcap does not go down.

Two things I would do.

A)  Bring the absurdity of a 14 handicap breaking 80 to the attention of your club's handicap committee. (and doing it multiple times is outright cheating)

B)  Make it publicly known to this man, and everyone at your club that knows him, that you won't be contributing to his lies, and refuse to ever play with him or against him on the golf course.  Essentially a public shunning.

Most people will do neither, as most folks (myself included) don't want to destroy relationships at a private club and will allow this sort of nonsense to continue just to keep the peace.  I'd probably quit the club if nothing was done about it and there was money involved on more than one occasion and the fraud handicap could be easily proved.

[sixcat]

I see a fair amount of vanity handicapping locally.  Guys who haven't legitimately ever broken 80 playing off a 4.  They tend to be a running joke but spend a lot of money in our clubhouse so, we leave them alone and take their money.

I haven't posted a score (nor have I kept a score) in over 10 years.  I don't care what I shoot these days.  I only care about the "therapy" I get from the solitude.  It's kept me sane over the past 30 years! 

[Jmikecpa]

I see a fair amount of vanity handicapping locally.  Guys who haven't legitimately ever broken 80 playing off a 4.  They tend to be a running joke but spend a lot of money in our clubhouse so, we leave them alone and take their money.
I haven't posted a score (nor have I kept a score) in over 10 years.  I don't care what I shoot these days.  I only care about the "therapy" I get from the solitude.  It's kept me sane over the past 30 years! 

Those guys are fine and we have several at my club. They never win a tournament and rarely take any money during the weekend games. Wish we had about a dozen more.


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[Mr. 82]

10 minutes ago, sixcat said:

I see a fair amount of vanity handicapping locally.  Guys who haven't legitimately ever broken 80 playing off a 4.  They tend to be a running joke but spend a lot of money in our clubhouse so, we leave them alone and take their money.

I haven't posted a score (nor have I kept a score) in over 10 years.  I don't care what I shoot these days.  I only care about the "therapy" I get from the solitude.  It's kept me sane over the past 30 years! 

 

9 minutes ago, Jmikecpa said:

Those guys are fine and we have several at my club. They never win a tournament and rarely take any money during the weekend games. Wish we had about a dozen more.
 

 

Just reminds me of a guy I was paired with at an FSGA one-day event late last year.  Couldn't stop talking about how he shot 74 at TPC Sawgrass Stadium Course.  But I spent most of my day looking for his stray shots in the bushes and trees, and other wildlife areas far off of the fairway.  We were both in the gross flight, so I just shook my head and went about my business.  Nice guy, and maybe he did shoot 74 at TPC Sawgrass, but he barely broke 100 the day I played with him.

 

Also reminds me of one of my Dad's best friends from years ago, whom I played quite a few rounds of golf with over the years.  The man was retired, loaded, and seemingly had a new set of golf clubs everytime we teed it up.  This was the typical hole for him - Driver OB, "Mulligan drive" OB.  3rd one finds the rough somewhere down there about 200 yards.  Leaves his approach shot short of the green.  Chips over the green.  Chips back on the green, and three putts.  Walking to the next tee he tells my Dad, "give me a 5."  They had no problem letting him play in every net tournament at that club.  But he didn't care about the money, because he had so much of it that he was constantly trying to find ways to piss it away.  Anyone ever buy a $120,000 Mercedes and then trade it in about 6 months later because you just didn't like it and lose about $20k in the process of buying the next new car?  Anyone ever build an $11 million house, only to sell it for $8 million 2 years later because he just got tired of it.  That was this guy.  Sadly, he was just flat out miserable in life.  Nothing made him happy.  He was generous to a fault, but he didn't care.  Money was like water to him.  But yeah, he definitely loved his vanity handicap.

[sixcat]

7 minutes ago, GSwag said:

Also reminds me of one of my Dad's best friends from years ago, whom I played quite a few rounds of golf with over the years.  The man was retired, loaded, and seemingly had a new set of golf clubs everytime we teed it up.  This was the typical hole for him - Driver OB, "Mulligan drive" OB.  3rd one finds the rough somewhere down there about 200 yards.  Leaves his approach shot short of the green.  Chips over the green.  Chips back on the green, and three putts.  Walking to the next tee he tells my Dad, "give me a 5."  They had no problem letting him play in every net tournament at that club.  But he didn't care about the money, because he had so much of it that he was constantly trying to find ways to piss it away.  Anyone ever but a $120,000 Mercedes and then trade it in about 6 months later because you just didn't like it and lose about $20k in the process of buying the next new car?  Anyone ever build an $11 million house, only to sell it for $8 million 2 years later because he just got tired of it.  That was this guy.  Sadly, he was just flat out miserable in life.  Nothing made him happy.  He was generous to a fault, but he didn't care.  Money was like water to him.  But yeah, he definitely loved his vanity handicap.

This sounds like my wife's brothers.  They are ridiculous and always trying to "one-up" each other.  If one buys a new car, the other immediately has to have something a little more expensive and most importantly, a little more flashy.  They each own multiple homes, several of which they haven't seen in years.  It's nothing more than a sibling rivalry that has been passed down to their 7 kids (combined), who are actively carrying on the tradition.

A positive for my family, they are constantly giving my wife and I examples of "teachable moments" for our own children.

[DaveP043]

4 hours ago, perseveringgolfer said:

One guy last year proudly told me (as he beat me 6 & 4) he only plays in matchplay or stableford comps and his handicap has been at 9 for as long as he remembers! he was 1 over par after 16............THEN he skittered and duffed treble bogies on 17 and 18! Was that to try and show me he's really a true 9!!!!

 

1 hour ago, GSwag said:

Exactly what he was doing.  Match won, so make sure it looks legit, even though he's a 2 or 3 handicap in reality.

Americans like most of us aren't really familiar with the CONGU rules, but it has seemed to be a little less susceptible to sandbagging.  By using competition stroke-play scores, it takes away the "self-posting" element that makes the USGA system relatively easy to manipulate.  Aren't Stableford competition scores used for handicaps too?  After all, they're essentially stroke play with a maximum score (or zero points, same thing).  In addition, the match play score is not counted for handicap, so while he may have been trying to manipulate his image, those last two holes did absolutely nothing to his handicap.

[fixyurdivot]

We're now playing bi-weekly at Yuma CC.  They open it to public play and have a shotgun start.  For the green fee, we get to play as a group, it includes a cart, practice range, (4) opportunities for closest to pin on the par 3's (each worth $20), one free beverage on the course, and a low net/low gross payout.  They use the handicap provided by the player (formal not required).  They also use a random number generator to pair you with your "mystery partner" following the round; which is used for the low net/gross awards.  In addition, they have a skins game; $5 or $10 depending on which option you choose (not certain of specifics as I did not opt to play in that last time). The format seems fair enough presuming their isn't too many playing a game on top of the game.  

The course is in great condition, they have free popcorn in the clubhouse while the host tally's up the rounds/winners, and I'm not at work.  So, even if I'm getting "bagged", it's fun.  

 

[sixcat]

2 hours ago, Jmikecpa said:

Those guys are fine and we have several at my club. They never win a tournament and rarely take any money during the weekend games. Wish we had about a dozen more.


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"Live Under Par"      

[Jmikecpa]

"Live Under Par"      

I only fear the live under net par guys.


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[perseveringgolfer]

50 minutes ago, Jmikecpa said:

 

I only fear the live under net par guys.


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When you rock up for the Monthly medal, sign in on the computer and notice theres already a nett 60 posted from an early starter off a 17 h/cap, you take a deep breath. Then you work out you have to shoot 3 under par gross just to tie, then the deep breath turns into a deep sigh 

[Jmikecpa]

When you rock up for the Monthly medal, sign in on the computer and notice theres already a nett 60 posted from an early starter off a 17 h/cap, you take a deep breath. Then you work out you have to shoot 3 under par gross just to tie, then the deep breath turns into a deep sigh 

Or at my club I round to a +1 so -4 67 would get me into a playoff that I would have zero shot at winning. I went with the hard pass on these events last year. Would rather play a $100 game straight up with 10 or 12 guys.


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[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, perseveringgolfer said:

When you rock up for the Monthly medal, sign in on the computer and notice theres already a nett 60 posted from an early starter off a 17 h/cap, you take a deep breath. Then you work out you have to shoot 3 under par gross just to tie, then the deep breath turns into a deep sigh 

What does that score do to the player's handicap?  As I understand it, if the player's score in competition is 8 strokes below "net par", his handicap would be reduced by 2.4 strokes.  That's a much faster adjustment that you'd see in the USGA system.  Are these scores somehow not being recorded for handicap?

[Jmikecpa]

What does that score do to the player's handicap?  As I understand it, if the player's score in competition is 8 strokes below "net par", his handicap would be reduced by 2.4 strokes.  That's a much faster adjustment that you'd see in the USGA system.  Are these scores somehow not being recorded for handicap?

Should they be, yes. Unfortunately most times they are not. The instances I mentioned that happened to me last year had a grand total of 0 of those rounds posted by the gentlemen that shot the numbers. One guy was even blatant about it saying it would mess up his handicap.


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[perseveringgolfer]

26 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

What does that score do to the player's handicap?  As I understand it, if the player's score in competition is 8 strokes below "net par", his handicap would be reduced by 2.4 strokes.  That's a much faster adjustment that you'd see in the USGA system.  Are these scores somehow not being recorded for handicap?

yes you are correct and he will get a massive cut as it's recorded on the system. It will be 8 possibly 9 strokes depending on the CSS for the day.

The thing is theres someone like this just about every week.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Jmikecpa said:

Should they be, yes. Unfortunately most times they are not. The instances I mentioned that happened to me last year had a grand total of 0 of those rounds posted by the gentlemen that shot the numbers. One guy was even blatant about it saying it would mess up his handicap.

 

My club has begun posting all tournament scores by the pro shop.  If you have admin access, like the pro shop does, it really doesn't take long.  To be honest, if someone said he wasn't going to post, I'd be fairly vocal about it in the bar area, "That was a great round, I'll help you post it while we're sitting right here".  To a certain extent, a significant percentage of the sandbagging goes on because the majority of players don't want to take the steps required to stop it.