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fixyurdivot

Handicap Shenanigans

Handicap  

21 members have voted

  1. 1. To what extent are handicaps being manipulated?

    • Considerably
      10
    • Somewhat
      10
    • Very Little
      1


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9 hours ago, criley4way said:

Just saying that once the match is over your handicap score is what ever your current handicap says you would shoot on each hole for net par. That is to ensure people done close a match then duff it 

This isn't accurate, at least not in the USGA system.  See the following Decision from the Handicap Manual

Quote

5-2a/7. Score to Post if Match Ends in Fewer Than 18 Holes and Player Completes Round

Q: In match play, a player wins the match on the 16th hole. The player plays the remaining two holes. What score should the player post for these two holes?

A: The player must post the actual scores on the post-match holes. To post in any other manner would be at odds with the basic premise that contends that each player will try to make the best scores at every hole in every round. If the Committee believes that the player is inflating hole scores on the post-match holes, it may apply provisions of Section 8. (See 8-4c(iv).)

 

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I think that people who loose believe that the people who win, cheat.

Beyond a doubt cheating is out there - it can be avoided by joint by a men’s club that has handicap oversight and/or playing in reputable tournaments with handicap committees or of course only playing in gross score events.

I haven’t encountered nearly as much handicap cheating as others on here seem to have because I go that route.

And again I think it’s common for people who have lost to think that the winner of a handicap event must have cheated.


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6 minutes ago, revkev said:

I think that people who loose believe that the people who win, cheat.

Beyond a doubt cheating is out there - it can be avoided by joint by a men’s club that has handicap oversight and/or playing in reputable tournaments with handicap committees or of course only playing in gross score events.

I haven’t encountered nearly as much handicap cheating as others on here seem to have because I go that route.

And again I think it’s common for people who have lost to think that the winner of a handicap event must have cheated.

I agree completely.  Its hard for many people to believe that someone actually played better than their own good play, it helps their ego to think that the winner had to cheat to win.  But if you get a decent sized field, that can happen pretty often.

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I think that people who loose believe that the people who win, cheat.

Beyond a doubt cheating is out there - it can be avoided by joint by a men’s club that has handicap oversight and/or playing in reputable tournaments with handicap committees or of course only playing in gross score events.

I haven’t encountered nearly as much handicap cheating as others on here seem to have because I go that route.

And again I think it’s common for people who have lost to think that the winner of a handicap event must have cheated.


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I wouldn’t use the word cheat, but when I see the same group of members at my club that all manage to shoot rounds well under their index in tournament rounds (and only in tournament rounds at just about every tournament) my interests peak. I don’t do much care if I lose but the handicap system is supposed to at least allow for a fair fight. I don’t mind giving 17 or 18 shots if it is legit. I have issue in giving a legit 10 or 11 that many shots.

Most of the events that I play these days are straight up or have a gross division. Sheer net events at 100% handicap are a no go.


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I began keeping a handicap through GHIN last year for my own purposes. It is nice to have a number that tracks your improvement (or lack thereof) over a season.
I’ve played in leagues the last two years. The person running the league adjusts your handicap each week based on the league scores only. It’s a nice system because you can’t take large scores from other times of play and have a bump in handicap for league play. Everyone in the league enjoys golfing and drinking together, which is the true purpose of the league.
The other reason I keep a handicap is for a buddies golf trip where we play multiple games over a weekend. So far, due to the nature of the games, you can’t win by sandbagging as there are too many team events. The person that runs the weekend is very strategic about ensuring that cheating can not be rewarded.
I’m sure that there are less than honest people that play in events, but I would hope my joy of playing golf would not be negatively impacted by there actions. And as many have stated, if there are too many examples of less than honest scorekeeping, I would choose to not play in those events or with those people.


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1 hour ago, Jmikecpa said:

I wouldn’t use the word cheat, but when I see the same group of members at my club that all manage to shoot rounds well under their index in tournament rounds (and only in tournament rounds at just about every tournament) my interests peak. I don’t do much care if I lose but the handicap system is supposed to at least allow for a fair fight. I don’t mind giving 17 or 18 shots if it is legit. I have issue in giving a legit 10 or 11 that many shots.

 

I'm happy to call it what it is, sandbagging is cheating.  Statistically, its tough for a low-handicap guy to win a net event, even when all handicaps are fair.  Higher handicaps tend to have a wider range of scores, and there are generally a lot more of them.  Given the larger population, its pretty likely that one of them will shoot a pretty low score, and given the larger variability, that "pretty low score" will beat your own "pretty low score".  

But if their low tournament scores aren't being recorded, your handicap committee isn't doing its job.  

1 hour ago, palvord said:

I began keeping a handicap through GHIN last year for my own purposes

I know I'm notpicking, but I know you can't access Ghin as an individual, you have to do it through a club that is part of a regional association that has chosen Ghin to do its handicap maintenance.  Did you do this through your home club?

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24 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I know I'm notpicking, but I know you can't access Ghin as an individual, you have to do it through a club that is part of a regional association that has chosen Ghin to do its handicap maintenance.  Did you do this through your home club?

I can't say what @palvord did exactly, but I joined a local golf association almost exclusively for this purpose and I think it's probably common practice around my part of the country. The association I joined doesn't require a handicap for membership, it is purely optional. They do monitor scores and will make adjustments as necessary. We play a variety of formats and I haven't encountered any situation that made me suspect someone was sandbagging. In fact when I was chosen to play in a match play event against another club, I was so evenly paired that we went to 17 holes the first day and 18 holes the next.

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2 hours ago, Kor.A.Door said:

A 12 shooting 78 isn’t alarming, unless they are doing it routinely. One of the guys in our group is  the same 12, he shot a legit 76. He just didn’t have his normal bad 4 holes where he makes double or worse. He is a 12, but that day he made some putts and didn’t have the blow up holes. Now the next week the same guy shot 93. Not because he was sandbagging, just because he went back to his normal game. I would only be concerned on a 12 shooting a 78 if he does it often, but once a year is not a concern. 

I agree.  As a 14, I've already had two sub 80 rounds this winter season (79, 78, over ~ 36 rounds).  But in that same stretch, have had five rounds in the low 90's (94 the worst).  I found the following article about this subject and it's quite good.  The statistics table suggests that I have a 552:1 odds of scoring a 79.  Further, that any of us shoot more than +/- 3 strokes of our handicap should start raising eyebrows. Not disputing the math, but I think players do get both "streaky" and catch lady-luck's airstream more than gaussian distribution might otherwise dictate. 

The table also supports something I've observed when participating in handicap based events - that being in the lower end of the middle range handicap, odds are, your name won't be announced at the awards ceremony. 😢

"Higher-handicap players have a greater chance of shooting an exceptional round because score variability rises with handicaps. That’s why mid- to high-handicappers often walk off with the title in a large-field net event. Low handicappers can be consoled by the fact that their consistency gives them the edge in head-to-head play and multiple-round tournaments."

http://www.cdga.org/pdf/3299_1_Fairway_Felons.pdf

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Yeah I know it’s not alarming but let’s say I suspect he’s not posting. What can really be done do I rat him out? I know a 12 shooting a 78 isn’t a big deal. I was just using him as an example

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18 minutes ago, Charli said:

Yeah I know it’s not alarming but let’s say I suspect he’s not posting. What can really be done do I rat him out? I know a 12 shooting a 78 isn’t a big deal. I was just using him as an example

As someone who as worked in a Pro Shop and in conjunction with a handicap chair/committee the only way to fix it is to have the fellow golfers police it. I have seen many different tactics to try to combat sandbagging and while some work for a period of time overall they fail. One of the biggest sandbaggers I have seen was the father of the head pro at a country club. The Pro Shop posted all scores. Still didn't solve the problem, it has to come from the guys he plays with. As far as a 12 shooting a 78, it is not uncommon, however if he is not posting then yes, you should say something. 

 

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

I agree.  As a 14, I've already had two sub 80 rounds this winter season (79, 78, over ~ 36 rounds).  But in that same stretch, have had five rounds in the low 90's (94 the worst).  I found the following article about this subject and it's quite good.  The statistics table suggests that I have a 552:1 odds of scoring a 79.  Further, that any of us shoot more than +/- 3 strokes of our handicap should start raising eyebrows. Not disputing the math, but I think players do get both "streaky" and catch lady-luck's airstream more than gaussian distribution might otherwise dictate. 

The table also supports something I've observed when participating in handicap based events - that being in the lower end of the middle range handicap, odds are, your name won't be announced at the awards ceremony. 😢

"Higher-handicap players have a greater chance of shooting an exceptional round because score variability rises with handicaps. That’s why mid- to high-handicappers often walk off with the title in a large-field net event. Low handicappers can be consoled by the fact that their consistency gives them the edge in head-to-head play and multiple-round tournaments."

http://www.cdga.org/pdf/3299_1_Fairway_Felons.pdf

This range of scores is very common in my experience and while it makes it almost impossible for me to play against you net, because of the wide range, I would not suspect sandbagging. (Unless the only time you shoot 78 or 79 is in tournaments.)

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7 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

This range of scores is very common in my experience and while it makes it almost impossible for me to play against you net, because of the wide range, I would not suspect sandbagging. (Unless the only time you shoot 78 or 79 is in tournaments.)

Hell, I wish I could post these rounds in tournaments. We'll be playing this pseudo tournament format every other Monday through March, so I'm hoping that super low round comes early in the 552 game count 😁.

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I know I'm nitpicking, but I know you can't access Ghin as an individual, you have to do it through a club that is part of a regional association that has chosen Ghin to do its handicap maintenance.  Did you do this through your home club?


I joined the Golf Association of Michigan, and through that membership am able to use GHIN.


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That’s the problem, I don’t care enough to look him up and make sure he posts it. I’m sure as hell not going to do that with every person I play with. It’s going to be very hard to have the members police it. Most of the time nobody cares until they’re affected by it 

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4 hours ago, Charli said:

Yeah I know it’s not alarming but let’s say I suspect he’s not posting. What can really be done do I rat him out? I know a 12 shooting a 78 isn’t a big deal. I was just using him as an example

In order for the system to work properly scores need to be posted good or bad. 

In our group we have a guy that will call anyone out, and he will check scores to make sure they are entered. Sort of like, hey,  I hear you shot 72 yesterday, did you post it. If not, he will take you straight to the computer and watch you do it. 

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18 minutes ago, Charli said:

That’s the problem, I don’t care enough to look him up and make sure he posts it. I’m sure as hell not going to do that with every person I play with. It’s going to be very hard to have the members police it. Most of the time nobody cares until they’re affected by it 

So if members don't police it who does?

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So if members don't police it who does?


My club had a handicap committee comprised of two members and our head pro. They are supposed to compare the tee sheet to the GHIN postings on a weekly basis to make sure scores are posted for rounds played. I would say it is ineffective to say the least and the penalty for not posting is not being allowed into handicap events. In my several years there I don’t know of one member that has been barred from a club event.

To give another perspective to this I got an inquiry last year as to why most of my scores posted were “away” scores and I should not do this. Considering I spend five days a week over two hours away from my club for work that should be an acceptable answer. Apparently playing a few times during the week and posting the scores from those rounds was frowned upon.


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17 minutes ago, Jmikecpa said:

 


My club had a handicap committee comprised of two members and our head pro. They are supposed to compare the tee sheet to the GHIN postings on a weekly basis to make sure scores are posted for rounds played. I would say it is ineffective to say the least and the penalty for not posting is not being allowed into handicap events. In my several years there I don’t know of one member that has been barred from a club event.

To give another perspective to this I got an inquiry last year as to why most of my scores posted were “away” scores and I should not do this. Considering I spend five days a week over two hours away from my club for work that should be an acceptable answer. Apparently playing a few times during the week and posting the scores from those rounds was frowned upon.


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Agreed that the club, whether it is Head Pro, committee or any other such agency is not effective. Even if you could possibly match every scorecard to every score posted it still doesn't solve the problem. There is nothing to stop a foursome from putting down an erroneous score attesting it and turning it in. 

I know of a few clubs that will not allow you to post a score period. Has to be turned in to the shop and be attested with someone else. Home or away. One of these used to be the most notorious club within 100 miles for sandbaggers. 

I, like you do not play in net events for this reason. And if I do, I do it for pure enjoyment and expect to finish in the bottom half of the field. 

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I wouldn’t use the word cheat, but when I see the same group of members at my club that all manage to shoot rounds well under their index in tournament rounds (and only in tournament rounds at just about every tournament) my interests peak. I don’t do much care if I lose but the handicap system is supposed to at least allow for a fair fight. I don’t mind giving 17 or 18 shots if it is legit. I have issue in giving a legit 10 or 11 that many shots.

Most of the events that I play these days are straight up or have a gross division. Sheer net events at 100% handicap are a no go.


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Clearly that’s an issue - I haven’t encountered much of it though - the same guys should not be winning handicap events more should they be able to consistently shoot under their index. The clubs that I’ve been a part of would have addressed the matter. I must be fortunate.


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