Koepka On Pace Of Play: “Guys are already so slow it’s kind of embarrassing."

[Mr. 82]

https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2019/1/30/koepka-on-pace-of-play-guys-are-already-so-slow-its-kind-of-embarrassing

Quote

“I just don’t understand how it takes a minute and 20 seconds, a minute and 15 to hit a golf ball; it’s not that hard,” Koepka said.

“It’s always between two clubs; there’s a miss short, there’s a miss long. It really drives me nuts especially when it’s a long hitter because you know you’ve got two other guys or at least one guy that’s hitting before you so you can do all your calculations; you should have your numbers.

“Obviously if you’re the first guy you might take ten extra seconds, but it doesn’t take that long to hit the ball, especially if it’s not blowing 30.

“If it’s blowing 30 I understand taking a minute and taking some extra time with some gusts, you know changing just slightly, I get that but if it’s a calm day there’s no excuse.

“Guys are already so slow it’s kind of embarrassing. I just don’t get why you enforce some things and don’t enforce others.”

Not only is Brooks right, but I think it's only a matter of time before someone finally gets DeChambeau to pick up the pace and knock off the intentionally gamesmanship that he displays against his playing partners, by intentionally waiting to start his conversation with his caddie about whatever it is they talk about, until after the other guys have finished hitting.  I mean, if you want to talk about air density and a thousand other things no one ever thinks about, fine, but all I think anyone is asking here is that you abide by the pace of play guidelines that the Tour has in place.  Eventually the Tour has to buckle to the pressure if enough outside influences keep this topic as alive and well as it has been for some time now.  I'm just surprised we have such a blatant horrible penalty on a non-issue with Haotong Li that gave him no advantage whatsoever, when pace of play actually does affect the other golfers on the course, not only in your group, but also behind you, as they wait on every shot because you are too busy crunching numbers on things no one besides you has a clue about or could care less about.

[StrokerAce]

1 minute ago, GSwag said:

https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2019/1/30/koepka-on-pace-of-play-guys-are-already-so-slow-its-kind-of-embarrassing

Not only is Brooks right, but I think it's only a matter of time before someone finally gets DeChambeau to pick up the pace and knock off the intentionally gamesmanship that he displays against his playing partners, by intentionally waiting to start his conversation with his caddie about whatever it is they talk about, until after the other guys have finished hitting.  I mean, if you want to talk about air density and a thousand other things no one ever thinks about, fine, but all I think anyone is asking here is that you abide by the pace of play guidelines that the Tour has in place.  Eventually the Tour has to buckle to the pressure if enough outside influences keep this topic as alive and well as it has been for some time now.  I'm just surprised we have such a blatant horrible penalty on a non-issue with Haotong Li that gave him no advantage whatsoever, when pace of play actually does affect the other golfers on the course, not only in your group, but also behind you, as they wait on every shot because you are too busy crunching numbers on things no one besides you has a clue about or could care less about.

I'm all for pace of play but from my understanding BAD is within the rules of play.  The tour seems to be pretty intent on this particular issue and last season put several players "on the clock" and I'm sure they'd do the same if BAD was violating the rule, but from what I've read he is not violating any rule.

As far as the 'gamesmanship' goes...I have no problem.  He does what it takes to win within the rules of play.  whatever that is.  If guys don't like it, too bad.  Some guys didn't like Larry Bird talking trash to them either....

[TR1PTIK]

I gotta agree with @GSwag and it's not just Bryson that's slow. What's the point in changing rules for the sake of pace of play if you aren't going to enforce slow play penalties?

I'm still personally not a fan of Bryson. He's a phenomenal golfer, but I don't think it has much of anything to do with all the data analysis he does on course. He's got great talent and he's figured out an equipment setup and swing that work for him. That's all he needs. Everything else is just for show at the end of the day.

[StrokerAce]

I guess he was actually put on the clock last week and it isn't uncommon for it to happen.  That, to me, is kind of wimpy on the tour's part.  You're either slow - and therefore penalized - or your not.  "Put on the clock" is kind of useless.  I have no problem with them punishing him a stroke...and I'm sure he'd speed up if it was done.

On the flip side - all of these guys complaining ought to review their putting....how many different angles do you need to look at a 30 foot putt before you lag it up there !??!

“It’s actually quite impressive that we’re able to get all that stuff done in 45 seconds; people don’t realize that it’s very difficult to do everything we do in 45 seconds,” DeChambeau told reporters Tuesday at the inaugural Saudi International. “I think that anybody that has an issue with it, I understand, but we’re playing for our livelihoods out here, and this is what we want to do. If we want to provide the best entertainment for you, it’s part of our process, or it’s part of my process, at least.”

DeChambeau concedes that he’s slower than many of his peers because “they have loads of experience that I haven’t necessarily had, so I have to find another way to be just as consistent as them without the experience.” He believes that once he grows more accustomed to some of the courses – it was just his second time playing the event in Dubai, for instance – his process will be quicker.  

DeChambeau said that he was put on the clock last week, and that it’s a common occurrence. “We’re put on the clock almost every week,” he said. It doesn’t affect him, however, because he’s “used to it now.”

“We try and speed up,” he said. “Trust me, we do our due diligence to speed up and do our best. We’re not trying to slow anyone down. I’m not trying to slow anyone down. It’s just a part of the process, and unfortunately the Rules of Golf allow for a certain amount of time, and we’re used it to our fullest potential.”

[DaveP043]

5 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

I gotta agree with @GSwag and it's not just Bryson that's slow. What's the point in changing rules for the sake of pace of play if you aren't going to enforce slow play penalties?

I'm still personally not a fan of Bryson. He's a phenomenal golfer, but I don't think it has much of anything to do with all the data analysis he does on course. He's got great talent and he's figured out an equipment setup and swing that work for him. That's all he needs. Everything else is just for show at the end of the day.

Again, I'm not sure that BDC has violated the slow play rules.  He's been on the clock, and apparently he manages to pick up the pace enough to avoid getting multiple bad times.  It takes a lot to earn a penalty, you have to fall a significant distance behind, you have to get one bad time to get a warning, and you need a second bad time to get a stroke penalty.  As long as you're keeping up, you can take as much time over a shot as you like.  I'd love to see better pace of play on the pro tours, but I'm not sure the rules are strict enough to ever see it happen.  John Feinstein has suggested that the Tour eliminate the first "bad time warning".  He says being told you're on the clock is warning enough, your first bad time should get you a stroke penalty, and I don't think that's a bad idea.

[DaveP043]

One thing comes to mind, we might find out that some players simply can't play well AND play quickly.  BDC could be one.  Jason Day, who not long ago said he'd continue to take whatever time he needed to play his best, might be another.  If these guys get "weeded out" by enforcement of slow play rules, they'll be missed, for a minute and a half.  But I guarantee that there will be players who CAN play well and fast at the same time who fill the vacancies.

[TR1PTIK]

So I just watched the clip (again) of Bryson from last week that's made the rounds on Twitter. I timed it and from the moment the clip starts, it takes him 1:14 to hit the shot. That just seems far too long, especially when you consider that the clip starts sometime after he began discussions with his caddie. If he's being put on the clock every week, odds are he should have racked up a penalty by now. The bigger problem with HIM playing slow is that he isn't the only golfer that gets put on the clock. Everyone in the group gets put on the clock and that has the potential to place undue pressure on the other players in his group. That's just not right. Spieth is guilty of this kind of behavior as well and so is Jason Day (or at least he has been in the past) and I actually like those guys. But, they should be penalized for slow play if/when they break the rules and I'm not sure that's happening. 

[Mr. 82]

19 minutes ago, GolfSpy Stroker said:

I guess he was actually put on the clock last week and it isn't uncommon for it to happen.  That, to me, is kind of wimpy on the tour's part.  You're either slow - and therefore penalized - or your not.  "Put on the clock" is kind of useless.  I have no problem with them punishing him a stroke...and I'm sure he'd speed up if it was done.

On the flip side - all of these guys complaining ought to review their putting....how many different angles do you need to look at a 30 foot putt before you lag it up there !??!

“It’s actually quite impressive that we’re able to get all that stuff done in 45 seconds; people don’t realize that it’s very difficult to do everything we do in 45 seconds,” DeChambeau told reporters Tuesday at the inaugural Saudi International. “I think that anybody that has an issue with it, I understand, but we’re playing for our livelihoods out here, and this is what we want to do. If we want to provide the best entertainment for you, it’s part of our process, or it’s part of my process, at least.”

DeChambeau concedes that he’s slower than many of his peers because “they have loads of experience that I haven’t necessarily had, so I have to find another way to be just as consistent as them without the experience.” He believes that once he grows more accustomed to some of the courses – it was just his second time playing the event in Dubai, for instance – his process will be quicker.  

DeChambeau said that he was put on the clock last week, and that it’s a common occurrence. “We’re put on the clock almost every week,” he said. It doesn’t affect him, however, because he’s “used to it now.”

“We try and speed up,” he said. “Trust me, we do our due diligence to speed up and do our best. We’re not trying to slow anyone down. I’m not trying to slow anyone down. It’s just a part of the process, and unfortunately the Rules of Golf allow for a certain amount of time, and we’re used it to our fullest potential.”

Katrick and Maginnes were discussing this yesterday on their satellite radio show, and they flat out called BS on DeChamslow's remarks above.  Essentially, he's refusing to own up to what he's doing by how slow he is playing.  And unfortunately, until he is penalized, perhaps multiple times, he has no incentive to change his behavior.

[StrokerAce]

well...as long as he keeps winning I suppose he might not care what people say about him.... I sure wouldn't.... I'd just say "SCOREBOARD".... especially when you win by 7.

...at least he leaves the flagstick in. 

[bens197]

Good on Brooks for saying it. As far as Bryson goes, he’s going to take every advantage he can until there is a rule against it.


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[ga_pike]

How to fix Bryson's slow play in 1 easy step...

 

Pair him with Rory Sabbatini for every round until he is able to keep up on a regular basis.  

 

 

[Mr. 82]

21 minutes ago, GolfSpy Stroker said:

well...as long as he keeps winning I suppose he might not care what people say about him.... I sure wouldn't.... I'd just say "SCOREBOARD".... especially when you win by 7.

...at least he leaves the flagstick in. 

Yeah it's a shame someone as smart as DeChamslow would take that sort of attitude, when it actually flies in direct conflict with the spirit and rules of the game of golf in general.

From http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=pe&section=rule&rulenum=1

Quote

All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

• Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play.

• Showing consideration to others – for example, by playing at a prompt pace, looking out for the safety of others, and not distracting the play of another player.

• Taking good care of the course – for example, by replacing divots, smoothing bunkers, repairing ball-marks, and not causing unnecessary damage to the course.

You should check to see whether the Committee has adopted a Code of Conduct, as you could get a penalty if you do not follow it.

And yes, I think it is distracting if you are holding up the play of not only your playing partners, but of the groups that are behind you.  I didn't write this either - that's from the Rules of Golf.

[DaveP043]

40 minutes ago, GSwag said:

Katrick and Maginnes were discussing this yesterday on their satellite radio show, and they flat out called BS on DeChamslow's remarks above.  Essentially, he's refusing to own up to what he's doing by how slow he is playing.  And unfortunately, until he is penalized, perhaps multiple times, he has no incentive to change his behavior.

The only thing this shows is that a slow pro is the same as the slow player at your local muni.  Neither one of them thinks that he's the problem, each one thinks he's playing at just the right pace, doing the best that anyone could expect of him.  In my experience, slow players are almost all in denial.

[SteddyGolf]

I think golf would be a lot more interesting if there was a clock on each hole and guys had to carry their own bags. I’m not sure how you would make it work but I’d damn sure tune in to see guys jogging down the fairway to beat the clock. Maybe just one tournament a year where you have all kinds of crazy rules would be cool.

What happens in Golf is the same thing that happens in all sports.........amateurs imitate what they see on TV. The slow play from the PGA Tour trickles down to us scrubs because we want to be like Mike when we really only have the skill of Jo Jo the Monkey Boy.


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[ga_pike]

I think golf would be a lot more interesting if there was a clock on each hole and guys had to carry their own bags. I’m not sure how you would make it work but I’d damn sure tune in to see guys jogging down the fairway to beat the clock. Maybe just one tournament a year where you have all kinds of crazy rules would be cool.

What happens in Golf is the same thing that happens in all sports.........amateurs imitate what they see on TV. The slow play from the PGA Tour trickles down to us scrubs because we want to be like Mike when we really only have the skill of Jo Jo the Monkey Boy.


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They did this on the European Tour in 2018 (IIRC)

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[GB13]

3 hours ago, ga_pike said:

They did this on the European Tour in 2018 (IIRC)

Sent from my SM-G935V using MyGolfSpy mobile app
 

You're correct. The did it during the Golf Sixes. It was just for one hole though. IIRC, only one person got a penalty. (40 seconds per shot)

[palvord]

Like the sun rising and setting, someone will always complain about pace of play.

I personally am in the Brooks camp when it applies to us amateurs. Make the decision quickly and execute.

For professionals, I understand the BDC perspective. When it comes to playing/working for your livelihood, you will do all you can to perform at your best. For him, he takes way longer to commit to his shot compared to some of his peers. I understand him wanting to push everything he can to perform at his best.


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[ZenGolfer]

People have been complaining about this for years.  It is a problem though when you have young players like BDC who think they are entitled to take as long as they want and that it somehow provides a greater entertainment value to the fans.

You dont need to take as long as he takes to hit a shot, especially when youre a pro who knows exactly how far you hit in club and what is going to happen in any situation.  See it, hit it, move on.

Part of the problem with him, I think, is that he isnt very efficient in how he plans his shots.  All the time he wastes talking with his caddie when its hit turn to hit (instead of making a plan as he is walking to his ball or waiting to hit) and trying to analyze all this data that really doesnt matter all that much.  I mean, when youre trying to analyze air density; its time to get a grip.

IMO, the easy way to fix this would be to implement a shot clock.  Make it something like 45 or 60 seconds and if you go over, even by 1 second, its a 1 stroke penalty.  When players like BDC are getting 10 or 20 penalty strokes per round for being slow, they will get their act together.

[DaveP043]

I was almost amused when Bryson was quoted as saying that its actually pretty impressive that they can prepare and hit a shot in only 40 seconds, even though he doesn't actually hit shots within 40 seconds.  I think they could make the slow-play policy more strict if they choose to, but the tour is owned by the players, and I doubt that enough players care enough to be able to develop and pass tougher rules.  

If the did somehow manage to tighten up the slow play policy, I bet most would adapt quite well, but we'd find at least a few players who simply can't play well at a faster pace.  They'd fade away, and someone would fill the vacancy, and we'd hardly miss the slow ones.

[sixcat]

Brendan Porath and Andy Johnson spoke at length about this on the "Shotgun Start" podcast yesterday.  I agree with one aspect, I love that BK is willing to be forthcoming.  We normally get the carefully crafted message created by the Don Draper wannabe. 

[HardcoreLooper]

Walk faster between shots... it worked for Nicklaus.

[perseveringgolfer]

I was watching 'the gun slinger' this morning live from Dubai on the European tour.

Man he was taking ages on wedge shots....a slow walk to the green to have a long look at the contours, then a slow meandering walk back to his ball 80 yds away to take the shot, pitched to 20 feet.....slow walk to ball, circled the putt twice..........this kind of behaviour doesn't help especially when amateurs copy it.

 

p.s he holed the putt and was leading

[ZenGolfer]

23 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I was almost amused when Bryson was quoted as saying that its actually pretty impressive that they can prepare and hit a shot in only 40 seconds, even though he doesn't actually hit shots within 40 seconds.  I think they could make the slow-play policy more strict if they choose to, but the tour is owned by the players, and I doubt that enough players care enough to be able to develop and pass tougher rules.  

If the did somehow manage to tighten up the slow play policy, I bet most would adapt quite well, but we'd find at least a few players who simply can't play well at a faster pace.  They'd fade away, and someone would fill the vacancy, and we'd hardly miss the slow ones.

The tour isnt owned by the players.  They have to play within the rules that the USGA and R&A set, just like everyone else.  What are they all going to do, quit and go get real jobs?  As much as these guys may whine about how hard the life of a tour pro is (and it is very hard for many of them), it still beats working on the line in a factory or sitting in a cubicle every day.

8 minutes ago, perseveringgolfer said:

I was watching 'the gun slinger' this morning live from Dubai on the European tour.

Man he was taking ages on wedge shots....a slow walk to the green to have a long look at the contours, then a slow meandering walk back to his ball 80 yds away to take the shot, pitched to 20 feet.....slow walk to ball, circled the putt twice..........this kind of behaviour doesn't help especially when amateurs copy it.

 

p.s he holed the putt and was leading

Thats where the problem lies: people see it on TV and they think, "well, if the pros do it, then I have to do it."

[DaveP043]

Perhaps I'm technically wrong about ownership of the PGA Tour.  But I've found that about half of the director positions for the PGA Tour are filled by players.  In addition, the 16-member Players Advisory Council, headed by chairman Jordan Spieth, has significant input.  Any changes to the slow-play policy on tour will only be accomplished with the consent of the players.  If Brooks wants to make things better, along with the other players who dislike the pace of play, they can try to get themselves on the PAC and actually get something done.  

[StrokerAce]

wonder if Koepka considered pace of play when he did this ??? 
(Mr. Kettle, the Pot is asking if it truly is black...)

https://golf.swingbyswing.com/tour/koepka-gets-fans-to-move-boulder

 

[fixyurdivot]

We almost made it through the first month of 2019 without a pace of play thread...or perhaps I was just lucky enough to miss seeing others?  

[StrokerAce]

2 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

We almost made it through the first month of 2019 without a pace of play thread...or perhaps I was just lucky enough to miss seeing others?  

ironic thing is that it was a pace of play thread on the PGA tour rather than at your local course!

[ZenGolfer]

6 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Perhaps I'm technically wrong about ownership of the PGA Tour.  But I've found that about half of the director positions for the PGA Tour are filled by players.  In addition, the 16-member Players Advisory Council, headed by chairman Jordan Spieth, has significant input.  Any changes to the slow-play policy on tour will only be accomplished with the consent of the players.  If Brooks wants to make things better, along with the other players who dislike the pace of play, they can try to get themselves on the PAC and actually get something done.  

That makes more sense.  I took it like you were saying that if players want to play slow, they just will and if they get penalties, they simply will stop showing up for tournaments.

Honestly, if I were a tour pro and I got grouped with BDC, Id subtley heckle him about playing slow.  Id make snide little comments like, "while we're young" or "any day now".  Then, if he and I got into a spat, Id make it clear to any reporter who wanted to ask me exactly what the problem was.

The tour could police itself and when his peers are all getting on him, maybe BDC would realize that he actually isnt entitled to take all day.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Zengolfer said:

That makes more sense.  I took it like you were saying that if players want to play slow, they just will and if they get penalties, they simply will stop showing up for tournaments.

Honestly, if I were a tour pro and I got grouped with BDC, Id subtley heckle him about playing slow.  Id make snide little comments like, "while we're young" or "any day now".  Then, if he and I got into a spat, Id make it clear to any reporter who wanted to ask me exactly what the problem was.

The tour could police itself and when his peers are all getting on him, maybe BDC would realize that he actually isnt entitled to take all day.

Sorry if I didn't write that clearly enough.  What I mean is that the players essentially run the PGA Tour, and they determine to a large extent what the policy is regarding pace of play.   They need to have a pace of play policy so that the officials (that the PGA Tours hires) have a basis for enforcing these rules, the players as individuals don't want to be the "bad guy" in the moment during a round of golf.  But if the bulk of the players could agree to strengthen the rules, they could do it.

[fixyurdivot]

On 2/2/2019 at 9:17 AM, GolfSpy Stroker said:

ironic thing is that it was a pace of play thread on the PGA tour rather than at your local course!

Why is that ironic?