Death of the Two-Person Cart

[tony@CIC]

1 minute ago, Middler said:

The difference is, the player buys a push or remote control cart. Presumably very few will buy their own single rider carts, 2, 3 or 4 wheel. So courses would have to buy them, and assume the liability. Under that (likely?) scenario, I can't imagine many course would buy or lease 2 wheel single rider carts and expose themselves to the liability. But maybe I'm wrong, time will tell.

I'd agree that this is going to be a more of a individual purchase rather than a fleet purchase. But I can see some resorts having them available as novelty items just like Segways and Jet Skis. 

[DannyDips]

+1. One league I play in 22 weeks/season is a mix of motorized 2 person carts and walkers with push or remote control carts. In general walkers move just as quickly as 2 person carts, week after week. Although the carts are quicker between shots, the walkers all go directly to their ball instead of making two stops (sometimes far apart). And motorized can't go places walkers can, so they have to park further away some times. Or when it's cart paths only, 2 person carts are slow. So I'd conclude 2 person carts and walkers move about the same pace all else equal.
I am sure solo motorized carts would be faster than 2 person carts or walkers. By how much I don't know. Minutes, 10's of minutes, more?
And like others have said before. Slow play is only partly due to carts and other tools. In my experience, at least 50% of the cause of slow play is bad habits by players, it won't make much difference if they have a cart. The bad habits are many, and they've been detailed many times already.

Completely agree. Most people who walk are usually better and quicker players.

I would really like to see how much quicker a round would be with 4 carts instead of 2. I also think it would depend on skill level greatly. 4 single digit guys might shave off an hour or more but four 20+ handicap guys might not save half that.

Personally I think the two best ways to improve pace of play is to improve the average golfers score and play “ready golf”.


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[hckymeyer]

35 minutes ago, DannyDips said:

 

 

Completely agree. Most people who walk are usually better and quicker players.

I would really like to see how much quicker a round would be with 4 carts instead of 2. I also think it would depend on skill level greatly. 4 single digit guys might shave off an hour or more but four 20+ handicap guys might not save half that.

Personally I think the two best ways to improve pace of play is to improve the average golfers score and play “ready golf”.


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I live on a course and most of the guys in my regular groups have their own carts.  It's quite often we have 4 guys in 4 individual carts while playing.  We can cruise, if nobody's ahead of us it's easy to play 18 in 2-ish hours.  In general we are all pretty fast golfers though.

The big problem is everybody else   That seems to be the biggest theme in this thread though.  We're never the problem, it's always everybody else.  

It's kind of a like a traffic jam on the highway.  Somebody taps their brakes in heavy traffic and it ripples back and because a dead stop 2 miles behind them.  All it takes is one slow group to slow down the entire course.  Until everyone on the course can stop being an idiot we will all suffer the consequences of idiots on the course.

[Kenny B]

39 minutes ago, DannyDips said:

 

 

Completely agree. Most people who walk are usually better and quicker players.

I would really like to see how much quicker a round would be with 4 carts instead of 2. I also think it would depend on skill level greatly. 4 single digit guys might shave off an hour or more but four 20+ handicap guys might not save half that.

Personally I think the two best ways to improve pace of play is to improve the average golfers score and play “ready golf”.


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On an empty course 4 carts would certainly be faster.  On a typical playing weekend in the summer at my muni, a group with 4 carts plays no faster than 4 walkers.  There's no where to go.

At my old course we had a group that had 4 carts and they did not care about anyone else.  If they came up on a group, they skipped ahead to the next open hole; might be 2 or 3 holes ahead, wherever it was open.  I don't know how many holes they played; they probably didn't either.  We called them "the Polo Club".

[DannyDips]

1 hour ago, Kenny B said:

On an empty course 4 carts would certainly be faster.  On a typical playing weekend in the summer at my muni, a group with 4 carts plays no faster than 4 walkers.  There's no where to go.

At my old course we had a group that had 4 carts and they did not care about anyone else.  If they came up on a group, they skipped ahead to the next open hole; might be 2 or 3 holes ahead, wherever it was open.  I don't know how many holes they played; they probably didn't either.  We called them "the Polo Club".

 Did they even bother to stop the carts to swing? 

I'm just thinking if its drastically quicker to play with 4 single rider carts it might be profitable for certain courses to have them in the fleet so they can get more people on the course. That way its not just a convenience for the golfer (2-3 hour round) but its also advantageous for the course to get more people on the course on peak days.

If nothing else book the tee times where the earlier guys are guaranteed a quicker pace of play with the single carts and as the day goes on a course could work the slower double person carts since its almost guaranteed to be a longer round later into the morning.

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, DannyDips said:

 Did they even bother to stop the carts to swing? 

I'm just thinking if its drastically quicker to play with 4 single rider carts it might be profitable for certain courses to have them in the fleet so they can get more people on the course. That way its not just a convenience for the golfer (2-3 hour round) but its also advantageous for the course to get more people on the course on peak days.

If nothing else book the tee times where the earlier guys are guaranteed a quicker pace of play with the single carts and as the day goes on a course could work the slower double person carts since its almost guaranteed to be a longer round later into the morning.

Or the course could keep track of which groups are actually slow, and deny them the opportunity to book an early tee time.  

[Kenny B]

1 minute ago, DannyDips said:

 Did they even bother to stop the carts to swing? 

I'm just thinking if its drastically quicker to play with 4 single rider carts it might be profitable for certain courses to have them in the fleet so they can get more people on the course. That way its not just a convenience for the golfer (2-3 hour round) but its also advantageous for the course to get more people on the course on peak days.

If nothing else book the tee times where the earlier guys are guaranteed a quicker pace of play with the single carts and as the day goes on a course could work the slower double person carts since its almost guaranteed to be a longer round later into the morning.

Not very long!!  They didn't spend much time on the greens either!

My course has very limited cart storage; under the main building.  Single rider carts will take up more room so they probably won't be getting any, but I could see maybe a few would be useful at certain times... 4 wheelers only though.

An example would be pairing up a single who wants to rider with a threesome who doesn't have an empty seat in a cart; i.e., 3 walkers, 2 riders and one walker.  On the weekends when cart use is the highest, the club will pair up strangers in a cart when possible.

 

[Kenny B]

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Or the course could keep track of which groups are actually slow, and deny them the opportunity to book an early tee time.  

Maybe at a private course, but not a muni.  

[TR1PTIK]

7 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Or the course could keep track of which groups are actually slow, and deny them the opportunity to book an early tee time.  

I see a lot of cons to this approach - loss of revenue primarily - but this could very well be what it takes to force people to change.

[DannyDips]

9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Or the course could keep track of which groups are actually slow, and deny them the opportunity to book an early tee time.  

Right. My only point would be the course needs to make more money switching to single carts and I could see them doing it switching "IF" they could get 300 golfers on the course instead of 200 on peak days for example. 

[DannyDips]

11 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Not very long!!  They didn't spend much time on the greens either!

My course has very limited cart storage; under the main building.  Single rider carts will take up more room so they probably won't be getting any, but I could see maybe a few would be useful at certain times... 4 wheelers only though.

An example would be pairing up a single who wants to rider with a threesome who doesn't have an empty seat in a cart; i.e., 3 walkers, 2 riders and one walker.  On the weekends when cart use is the highest, the club will pair up strangers in a cart when possible.

 

Probably playing some Gimmie Golf... made me think of this classic... 

https://adland.tv/adnews/michelob-light-gimme-1996-030-usa

Yes. I think those scenarios make a lot of sense to supplement the current courses fleet with a few single rider carts. I at least think that would get them some traction and then let consumers(golfers/courses) decide if they would be a staple and whats next. 

[DaveP043]

To all, including @Kenny B, @TR1PTIK, and @DannyDips, I should have indicated that my suggestion was mostly tongue in cheek.  I think to try to regulate pace of play by regulating who gets a single-rider cart is unlikely to be workable, much as my suggestion would be unworkable in most situations. As KennyB says, pace-related discipline through tee time allotment is really only feasible at private clubs.

In the long run, it will be economics that determine the fate of single-rider carts.  Initial (or lease) costs, energy costs, infrastructure investment (double the charging stations?), pace of play impacts, increased or decreased maintenance requirements to the course, liability insurance impacts, I don't know what else.

[BIG STU]

On 2/6/2019 at 3:16 PM, yungkory said:

The biggest issue aside from cost like others have mentioned, is the older generation IMO. I can't imagine gramps hopping on a golf bike and ripping it down the fairway, but maybe I'm wrong. I'd hate to see an entire generation of golfers get the shaft (pun!) because of this.

Also, I heard somewhere that courses have to replace their carts every x years? Anyone who work at a course that can confirm that? Maybe @Golfspy_CG2?

Down here most of the courses lease carts and depending on the course they get new ones every 2 years. Some of the upper tier courses within a management group get new carts every year and the lease on the older ones are passed on to the lower tier courses. Believe it or not carts get beat to hell and back on the mid tier and lower tier courses in the spring and fall tourist golf seasons. Far as single rider carts it just depends on how "trendy" they become as to whether courses will adopt them here.

[BIG STU]

On 2/6/2019 at 10:47 PM, Kenny B said:

Three years ago last Oct, I joined this muni.  Some of the carts couldn't make 18 holes; I had to call the clubhouse an have them run a cart out for me.  In the spring they leased new Yamaha carts, and we get new ones again next month.  I haven't had any battery issues with any cart this year.  Maybe the batteries are better these days than 6 years ago when they got the last fleet.  In the summer a cart will make 54 holes on a Sat or Sun.  I don't know if they put it on the charger for awhile before sending it out again though.

Our fleet consists of 65 carts; #1 - #54 carts are electric; #55 - #65 are gas.  I've never liked gas carts, unless I'm playing a hilly course!

Electric carts are getting more efficient every year and a lot depends on the terrain of the course. I know some of the mountain courses are so hilly an electric cart will not make 18 holes. Back when my old man ran a course it was hilly and on the weekends the carts with new batteries could maybe make 36 holes. We used to charge them between rounds. I can remember the ones with new batteries were ran to death and the batteries would be shot by spring. Of course those older carts were not nearly as efficient as they are now.  

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, BIG STU said:

Electric carts are getting more efficient every year and a lot depends on the terrain of the course. I know some of the mountain courses are so hilly an electric cart will not make 18 holes. Back when my old man ran a course it was hilly and on the weekends the carts with new batteries could maybe make 36 holes. We used to charge them between rounds. I can remember the ones with new batteries were ran to death and the batteries would be shot by spring. Of course those older carts were not nearly as efficient as they are now.  

My course uses our gas carts to pull dead or damaged carts off the course.  Yes, they get damaged a lot.  I guess we are a mid to lower tier course.  lol.  The gas carts have a better suspension than the electric carts.  

[fixyurdivot]

If these new fangled carts take hold, the price of traditional 2 man carts should plummet and those of us in the market for one will have lots of inventory to choose from .

[BIG STU]

14 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

If these new fangled carts take hold, the price of traditional 2 man carts should plummet and those of us in the market for one will have lots of inventory to choose from .

You would think so especially here. Used carts here even stock ones are expensive. Every Tom Dick and Harry has one because they are legal for daylight road use within certain aspects on public roads in SC. The only place I have seen with more golf carts on the roads is The Villages near Ocala Florida. Surfside Beach 2 miles up the road from me has more golf cart sales and service places than auto related stuff

[tony@CIC]

22 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

If these new fangled carts take hold, the price of traditional 2 man carts should plummet and those of us in the market for one will have lots of inventory to choose from .

I don't know why electric carts are so expensive to begin with. There's basically nothing to them and the designs have basically been the same for years. Except for a lithium battery upgrade there's virtually no difference between my 10 yr. old RXV and a brand new one. 

[HardcoreLooper]

If we're betting on whether things will change or stay the same, my money's on change.  I refuse to believe that the current two-person cart is the best way to get around the course in all cases.  I'm not going to go so far as to say that the two-person cart will ever completely go away, but you're going to start seeing more alternatives to what we have now.  

The nature of the course is going to dictate what will work there.  A course that logs 100 CPO days each year has different needs from one that burns out for July and August every year.  The blog article pointed out some interesting possibilities.  Most of them will likely flop, but now that people are starting to look at the problem differently, new solutions are going to keep coming. 

Personally, I'm half tempted to buy a mountainboard and try it out on the course.

[fixyurdivot]

On 2/10/2019 at 6:58 AM, tony@CIC said:

I don't know why electric carts are so expensive to begin with. There's basically nothing to them and the designs have basically been the same for years. Except for a lithium battery upgrade there's virtually no difference between my 10 yr. old RXV and a brand new one. 

Good point.  A neighbor just purchased a brand new Evolution Forrester with the optional rear facing seats/cargo deck, and shelled out just shy of $10,000. We lifted the lids and checked it all out - I'm still looking for at least another $5,000.  My Honda Recon has considerably more engineering and capability for the money.  

 

[palvord]

Eventually, single rider carts will be on many courses and seen as the norm.

Adoption will take time, and in my humble estimation, approximatley 5-10 years.  

As the article mentions, golf is a very traditional game.  Changing any of those traditions will take time. I do believe that there is a way for single rider carts to be integrated with the traditional two person cart at courses.  As courses continue to look for new ways to attract people to play, they will continue experimenting with these new ways of moving players quickly through a round of golf.

[GregB135]

My local course has a few of the scooter style, single rider carts. I tried it out, and it wasn't so bad after I got used to the balance and feel. Playing as a single it was terrific. To me the major downside was no protection from the elements. Down here in Florida, sun is a major concern. Any break you can get from the exposure is worth it.

The other downside I noted was recklessness on the part of others. Playing another time with my regular buddies we heard a big commotion behind us as we prepared to tee off. Turning around we saw three scooter cart riders, racing each other while driving across a portion of the course (on a par 3) no one should be driving any type of cart across. They were all laughing pretty hard until one of them lost control and crashed. There is a reason the clubhouse asked for signature on a liability and damage waiver. I think the potential quagmire of litigation against clients who damage the carts, their own equipment, and themselves using that type of cart will be reason for pause on the side of the courses. 

[palvord]

My local course has a few of the scooter style, single rider carts. I tried it out, and it wasn't so bad after I got used to the balance and feel. Playing as a single it was terrific. To me the major downside was no protection from the elements. Down here in Florida, sun is a major concern. Any break you can get from the exposure is worth it.
The other downside I noted was recklessness on the part of others. Playing another time with my regular buddies we heard a big commotion behind us as we prepared to tee off. Turning around we saw three scooter cart riders, racing each other while driving across a portion of the course (on a par 3) no one should be driving any type of cart across. They were all laughing pretty hard until one of them lost control and crashed. There is a reason the clubhouse asked for signature on a liability and damage waiver. I think the potential quagmire of litigation against clients who damage the carts, their own equipment, and themselves using that type of cart will be reason for pause on the side of the courses. 

Reckless driving I feel is a concern for all courses no matter what the vehicle.

I happen to agree that the single rider vehicle can encourage more reckless behavior than normal as more vehicles can mean more opportunities for idiocy. I do feel that this is one of the reasons why it will take multiple years for the integration of the single rider cart to be mainstream.


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[BigtazzGolf]

Lot of interesting thoughts on this topic. Myself, being a Bigtazz not a little tazz I might not worry with the single man ride unless it's got some horsepower lol
One day maybe though.


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[MaxEntropy]

13 hours ago, GregB135 said:

My local course has a few of the scooter style, single rider carts. I tried it out, and it wasn't so bad after I got used to the balance and feel. Playing as a single it was terrific. To me the major downside was no protection from the elements. Down here in Florida, sun is a major concern. Any break you can get from the exposure is worth it.

The other downside I noted was recklessness on the part of others. Playing another time with my regular buddies we heard a big commotion behind us as we prepared to tee off. Turning around we saw three scooter cart riders, racing each other while driving across a portion of the course (on a par 3) no one should be driving any type of cart across. They were all laughing pretty hard until one of them lost control and crashed. There is a reason the clubhouse asked for signature on a liability and damage waiver. I think the potential quagmire of litigation against clients who damage the carts, their own equipment, and themselves using that type of cart will be reason for pause on the side of the courses. 

I saw a video the other day about a traditional cart that could get near 50 mph. My first thought was that I see enough dumba$$es in the slow ones, I can't imagine if the average Joe were given something faster.

[TR1PTIK]

Watched a video on YouTube yesterday put out by the guys at Golficity. Near the end of the video they got to test the Finn Cycle and while they were certainly having fun, they weren't being crazy and I'm honestly not quite sure how you could get too crazy on those things after watching it. I think the biggest risk would be dumping the bike - especially if it occurred in the middle of the fairway or near a green or something.

[forerightgolfer]

Interesting thread.

I would love to have the option of a single rider cart. I play as a single often enough that having my own ride around the course would be a welcome change. I do not generally enjoy sharing a cart with someone I've just met.

I would hope that the 2 person cart never completely dies though. As was mentioned many times in the thread, for many people a huge part of playing golf is the social part of it. My dad's only reason for playing golf is 4+ hours of us hanging out and catching up. As noted, the cover from the elements is a big reason for the carts as well. For me, one of the hardest things about walking is that I don't really get to sit for 5 hours and I'm always in the sun. The 2 person cart solves both of those. 

For those course that have a lease program, would it be an option to blend some single person carts into the lease and test them out for a year or two? Wouldn't single rider carts make sense for groups playing late twilight rounds chasing the sun? I hope that we see some of these make start to break through soon.

 

[deauxrite]

With limited cart storage and multiple tournaments each season (two players to a cart), it would not make economic sense at our club.  Wind screens and hard tops are also a necessity in this part of the country..we play year round, but weather is still something for us to take into account.  I agree that some resorts might find these an idea to attract players.  These might also be attractive to our members that have their own carts and always ride by themselves (of which there are many).

[Quigleyd]

While I really want to get one of those cart motorcycle things. I do enjoy a round in a cart with conversation. I think I would miss that if there were only solo cart options. Remember, golf is a social event as well.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Quigleyd

[DriverBreaker]

https://mygolfspy.com/the-two-person-golf-cart-needs-to-die/
I have seen this topic on MGS a lot in the past couple weeks and there is already a ton of comments on the blog. 
I don't see courses switching to full fleets of single rider carts unless there is a profit advantage. Perhaps shortening the rounds can get more people on the course and raise revenue. I could see courses purchasing/leasing a handful of these type carts for singles, threesomes and millennial golfers. 
Has MGS tested how much quicker a foursome with their own carts would be? I'd really like to see the data on how much quicker 4 carts vs 2 carts would make a foursome. Maybe run the numbers and see how many more golfers a course could get though in a day if all the rounds were shorter. 
Thoughts?

I’ve seen one course that has scooter carts. I’ve wanted to try one for a long time. I used to ride a motorcycle so I think it would be a blast.


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