Kuchar is embarrassingly cheap

[deejaid 3,936]

A fill in caddie is typically another tour caddie who isn’t working a bag that week and has to pay his travel, lodging, etc as a players normal caddie.
This guy is a resort caddie and doesn’t have those responsibilities. He is an employee of the resort or an individual contractor and is allowed to loop at the course. 

So, a fill in caddie has more expenses, but is he worth more?



From the obituary of Scottish Caddie James “Tip” Anderson...

“The legendary golf caddie James "Tip" Anderson helped American stars Arnold Palmer and Tony Lema to win three Open Championships between them. Born and bred in St Andrews, Tip’s partnership and association with Palmer, which spanned more than 30 years, was renowned. He shared in many of the golfing superstar’s successes over the years after they first joined forces at the centenary Open in 1960; Tip was at Palmer’s side when he won the Open at Birkdale in 1961 and at Troon in 1962.

Palmer was unable to make the trip across the Atlantic for the 1964 Open at St Andrews and recommended Tip to his friend Tony "Champagne" Lema. The US golfer had never played the championship Old Course before and had only two practice rounds. However, with Tip at his side, he went on to win the coveted claret jug - and gave the St Andrews caddie much of the credit for his success.”


Too bad we don’t have more men like Champagne Tony on the tour today.




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[dhartmann34 1,765]

40 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

A friend of mine sent this me that he got from somewhere in regards to the Kuchar situation.

“Hi everyone, I'd like to offer my services for web design for your new product. Shall we agree on $3,000? Great. The website came out great, a $2,000 bonus? Thanks!! - Hey wait a minute, your products just sold $1M because of your own skills and sales abilities, but I built the website, you owe me $50K more!! Wait, $20K because you're a nice guy? Screw you, keep it, I want $50K because that's what I think I'm worth. - See how dumb that s*** sounds? Business is business folks, no matter what industry you're in.”

Just want to say...I love this example.... And some folks are going to try and say it's a different situation and different playing field. But I think business is business.

And on the flip side, think of the opportunity that caddie would get because of being on the winning bag of a PGA Tour guy? He could have built his own success off of it...instead, I don't think any big guys are going to look his way because it's too risky of a situation for them to put themselves in. I think it also hurts other caddies that may have wanted to fill in for the future. A pro may just pull a caddie from another guy that's not playing that week, instead of dealing with stuff like this. Opportunity costs being lost all over the place. Quite a situation that I believe is blown way out of proportion. 

[RickyBobby_PR 4,839]

25 minutes ago, deejaid said:

 

 

So, a fill in caddie has more expenses, but is he worth more?



From the obituary of Scottish Caddie James “Tip” Anderson...

“The legendary golf caddie James "Tip" Anderson helped American stars Arnold Palmer and Tony Lema to win three Open Championships between them. Born and bred in St Andrews, Tip’s partnership and association with Palmer, which spanned more than 30 years, was renowned. He shared in many of the golfing superstar’s successes over the years after they first joined forces at the centenary Open in 1960; Tip was at Palmer’s side when he won the Open at Birkdale in 1961 and at Troon in 1962.

Palmer was unable to make the trip across the Atlantic for the 1964 Open at St Andrews and recommended Tip to his friend Tony "Champagne" Lema. The US golfer had never played the championship Old Course before and had only two practice rounds. However, with Tip at his side, he went on to win the coveted claret jug - and gave the St Andrews caddie much of the credit for his success.”


Too bad we don’t have more men like Champagne Tony on the tour today.




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Value like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The chances of the fill in caddie knowing kuch’s swing, tendencies, etc compared to this guy is higher. The fill in caddie like the players regular caddie is going to be working on scouting the course while his player is off doing other stuff. S not only does he have more expenses, he ha more responsibilities during the tournament week and there is the typical tour caddie and player relations and agreement.

I think many are looking past how resort caddies are paid. If you go to pinehurst an request a caddie there is a suggested fee and customary tip. It’s really no different here. There’s a fee for these guys services for the week. They made an agreement for that plus an unspecified bonus. He got what was agreed on and declined extra payment offered and then hoped he would get more when kuch got home.

unfortunately a tour busy body wanted attention and turned a non story into an issue that’s really between player and caddie

[Kor.A.Door 5,838]

The real issue is that this story was even brought up to the public in the first place. I don’t go around my office talking about my finances with everyone and I bet none of you do either. The monies that exchnged hands should have been between Matt and the caddie, they should have been allowed to try to work out different compensation, but there is no chance of that now. This story never should have been brought to the public. 

[deejaid 3,936]

Value like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The chances of the fill in caddie knowing kuch’s swing, tendencies, etc compared to this guy is higher. The fill in caddie like the players regular caddie is going to be working on scouting the course while his player is off doing other stuff. S not only does he have more expenses, he ha more responsibilities during the tournament week and there is the typical tour caddie and player relations and agreement.
I think many are looking past how resort caddies are paid. If you go to pinehurst an request a caddie there is a suggested fee and customary tip. It’s really no different here. There’s a fee for these guys services for the week. They made an agreement for that plus an unspecified bonus. He got what was agreed on and declined extra payment offered and then hoped he would get more when kuch got home.
unfortunately a tour busy body wanted attention and turned a non story into an issue that’s really between player and caddie

It raises an interesting point. Is it more important that a caddie knows his player and his abilities inside and out, or is it more valuable that the caddie knows every inch of the course and can relay that info to the player while perhaps not knowing the players game as well?

Why did Kuchar need a replacement in the first place? And given he hadn’t won on tour in 4 years, how good was his normal caddie anyway?




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[RickyBobby_PR 4,839]

23 minutes ago, deejaid said:

 

 

It raises an interesting point. Is it more important that a caddie knows his player and his abilities inside and out, or is it more valuable that the caddie knows every inch of the course and can relay that info to the player while perhaps not knowing the players game as well?

Why did Kuchar need a replacement in the first place? And given he hadn’t won on tour in 4 years, how good was his normal caddie anyway?




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The caddie is going to know the players swing ands how much they will move a ball side to side, their tendencies and on the greens their speed. A local caddie won’t know that and given a line on a shot or how much a putt breaks will be somewhat of a guess because they aren’t familiar with the player pace of  putts an that’s as much of the equation as line. Regardless though that imo is irrelevant to how much this guy got paid since his fees are somewhat predetermined and he’s basically rent a caddie for the week.

kuch needed a caddie because his regular guy had a commitment and couldn’t make the trip. This happens with guys a lot when they play outside the country.

even though kuch hasn’t won in four years is also imo irrelevant because 1) its had to win on tour these days especially for the older guys 2) kuch still played well over that period of time 3) kuch is responsible for executing the shot each time and not the caddie.

[sixcat 3,577]

5 hours ago, sixcat said:

There are several other stories out there about Kuchar being less than what he portrays himself to be or what our perception of him is.  Most of those have come out in the past month so,  I don't know how accurate any of them are.  Neither does anyone else in this thread.   That fact is exactly why I haven't linked any of them.  It's just more message board fodder that cannot be verified.  But some outlets are staring to pick them up as I have seen this morning.  What I find most interesting though, many of those stories are being "liked" and "retweeted" by several people associated with the PGA Tour, including some players.  That says something!  More will certainly come out as a result.

We're all certainly entitled to our respective opinions.  I have mine and it differs from many within this thread.  I'm fine with that given I have been contrarian most of my adult life.  Simply put, I will never be comfortable with the way this situation was handled from the very beginning by the Kuchar camp.  At the end of the day, this topic is not worth any more of my time!  My final comment on this matter! 

I guess this won't be my final post!

 

 

[sixcat 3,577]

My reason for posting the Twitter information is simple.  It clearly shows the additional money some in this thread have accused Ortiz of turning down in hopes of a larger payday was offered by a third party, not anyone associated with Kuchar's camp.  That fact alone invalidates any "offer!"

It also clearly indicates the Mexican media is all over this story and it will be an issue for Kuchar next week.  How big of an issue remains to be seen.

Edited February 13, 2019 by sixcat

[gaussman1 1,512]

Kuchar didn't exactly help his cause with his comments. The extra money coming from his agency as damage control, the "let them eat cake" quote about $5k being a lot of money for a guy who makes $200 a day.
https://www.golf.com/news/2019/02/14/matt-kuchar-caddie-pay-controversy/

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[StrokerAce 10,475]

Hard not to think that Matt won't look back on this at the end of his career with some regret. At the end of the day 50k is a small sum here so he must be standing on principle, i.e a deal is a deal.  Really sad to see this all play out for everyone involved.

A similar story that I heard on a podcast yesterday...A guy was caddying for Bill Gates at Augusta where he's a member..and Gates isn't a very good golfer... they get to 16 and Gates says give me the 7, caddy says no there's wind take the 6 ( really wasn't any wind caddy just knew he couldn't get there with 7 ) Gates says no there isn't I'll take the 7, caddy says trust me hit the 6, Gates finally relents and uses the 6. And you probably already know this but he gets a hole in one. Caddy is jacked...he just helped the richest guy in the world get a HI1....Gates hands him the club and says thanks. Caddy is pissed...WTF? Gates leaves and caddy is storming around telling anyone who will listen. 

Few weeks later caddy gets something in the mail from the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. It says thanks and this is a scholarship for your daughters education to anywhere she goes to school for the rest of her life.  His daughter was 7.

Maybe Kuch could do something like that?

[sixcat 3,577]

I would imagine, Kuchar will have a difficult time ever landing a fill-in caddie again without some prior arrangement with another players regular guy.

[TR1PTIK 2,626]

 

15 hours ago, sixcat said:

My reason for posting the Twitter information is simple.  It clearly shows the additional money some in this thread have accused Ortiz of turning down in hopes of a larger payday was offered by a third party, not anyone associated with Kuchar's camp.  That fact alone invalidates any "offer!"

It also clearly indicates the Mexican media is all over this story and it will be an issue for Kuchar next week.  How big of an issue remains to be seen.

 

55 minutes ago, gaussman1 said:

Kuchar didn't exactly help his cause with his comments. The extra money coming from his agency as damage control, the "let them eat cake" quote about $5k being a lot of money for a guy who makes $200 a day.
https://www.golf.com/news/2019/02/14/matt-kuchar-caddie-pay-controversy/

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All I got from either of these two posts is that they agreed on a deal, Kuch met the obligations of that deal (and threw in a $1000 bonus), and that Ortiz only seemed to start hitting Kuch up for more after other people made the suggestion to him. If caddying is going to be the guy's livelihood or he's expecting to "buy a house" with earnings from ONE tournament then he should have negotiated for a better deal and got everything in writing. Clearly, he was okay with what was offered or he would have gone elsewhere. Maybe he'd be better off throwing himself in front of a car for an insurance scam because that's basically what it sounds like he's trying to do here at this point.

Edited February 14, 2019 by TR1PTIK

[bens197 5,872]

Kuchar didn't exactly help his cause with his comments. The extra money coming from his agency as damage control, the "let them eat cake" quote about $5k being a lot of money for a guy who makes $200 a day.
https://www.golf.com/news/2019/02/14/matt-kuchar-caddie-pay-controversy/

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If there ever was a story to support the 1% being out of touch with the common man.

[tony@CIC 16,774]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy Stroker said:

Hard not to think that Matt won't look back on this at the end of his career with some regret. At the end of the day 50k is a small sum here so he must be standing on principle, i.e a deal is a deal.  Really sad to see this all play out for everyone involved.

A similar story that I heard on a podcast yesterday...A guy was caddying for Bill Gates at Augusta where he's a member..and Gates isn't a very good golfer... they get to 16 and Gates says give me the 7, caddy says no there's wind take the 6 ( really wasn't any wind caddy just knew he couldn't get there with 7 ) Gates says no there isn't I'll take the 7, caddy says trust me hit the 6, Gates finally relents and uses the 6. And you probably already know this but he gets a hole in one. Caddy is jacked...he just helped the richest guy in the world get a HI1....Gates hands him the club and says thanks. Caddy is pissed...WTF? Gates leaves and caddy is storming around telling anyone who will listen. 

Few weeks later caddy gets something in the mail from the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. It says thanks and this is a scholarship for your daughters education to anywhere she goes to school for the rest of her life.  His daughter was 7.

Maybe Kuch could do something like that?

That's a great story! Much better present than cash that day which would have probably been blown though quickly! 

[Headhammer 1,803]

I've read a number of different accounts of this story and it seems that there are 2 sides to it and truth probably lies somewhere in between. 

* Kuch says deal was $3k for the week, which caddy does not dispute.

* Kuch says he offered to pay $1,000 bonus up front, caddy claims bonus, based on finish, was an unspecified amount

* $15K appears to be offered to caddy after dispute becomes public

IMHO, its between Kuch & the caddy. That being said, it were me I would have offered him $40-50k if I had won. 

 

[Wedgie 4,971]

Only thing Kuchar is guilty of is being cheap and that isn't a crime.

[revkev 22,079]

I had to stop reading.

Bottom line - Kuchar can’t win this argument - whether you think he’s right or wrong he comes across poorly. Worse yet he’s already lost because even if he were to pay more now he still looks bad.

Perception matters because that’s a touring pros greatest financial asset.


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[Kor.A.Door 5,838]

1 hour ago, revkev said:

I had to stop reading.

Bottom line - Kuchar can’t win this argument - whether you think he’s right or wrong he comes across poorly. Worse yet he’s already lost because even if he were to pay more now he still looks bad.

Perception matters because that’s a touring pros greatest financial asset.


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I have kind of the same felling here. He can’t make amends because it’s all public now. I guess the issue I have is that there was an agreement, both parties have said that, Matt paid the agreed upon sum, plus an extra grand. No one has disputed that. I think the issue is that folks like us feel like Matt should have paid more, and maybe he should have, but it’s not my money he’s spending. It’s his. The damage has been done, and as you said, even if he pays more now, it’s too late, he looks bad. 

[McaseyM 1,689]

Agreed that it looks bad no matter what, Kuchar is in a lose-lose situation at this point. Looking at the numbers, any chance Kuchar said the numbers as thousands and the caddy took it as percentages???

4% of 1.296 million is 51k.


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[revkev 22,079]

I agree with the last two posters. I’m not saying Kucher was wrong necessarily. Let’s say he was right. It really doesn’t matter because he “looks” wrong. Even if all the facts are exactly as he says he’s the nasty rich American taking advantage of this poor Caddy.

The less he says and the more he moves on, the better for him. Maybe he can negotiate some sort of deal with the guy to get him to say it was a language or cultural misunderstanding.

Regardless of what’s true this is why I root my emotions and don’t care about what I think I know about people whom I don’t know.


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