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Shoe Recommendations for Walking


TR1PTIK

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I'll try to keep this short and simple. Looking for recommendations on a new golf shoe. I currently own a pair of FJ Freestyles and a pair of cheap Pumas. Neither are comfortable for me to walk in. The Pumas don't have enough cushion to be comfortable for 18 holes and they aren't waterproof (water-resistant for you special people). The FJ's no longer keep water out and something about them causes pain in my big toe on my right foot. Anyway, I'm looking for something that will be comfortable for 18 or even 36 holes and does a good job keeping water out. Spiked or spikeless doesn't really matter. Just looking for a good comfortable shoe. The best shoe I had previously was the FJ GreenJoys from a couple years ago. Anything like that would be great!

I have seriously been eyeing the TRUE Original, but I'm worried about the wide toe box - their description says up to EEE for that section of the shoe. I'm worried that would allow too much movement for my foot. For reference, I'm perfectly suited to a US Men's 10.5 D...

Thanks!

Driver: :mizuno-small: ST190 9.5* Fujikura Atmos Blue 5S
Fairway Wood: :mizuno-small: ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S
Hybrid: :mizuno-small: CLK 17* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
Irons: :bridgestone-small: J40 CB (3-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
Wedges: :taylormade-small: Milled Grind 2 54* & 58* Dynamic Gold S200
Putter: :odyssey-small: Tri-Hot 5k Two 34"
Bag: :titleist-small: Players 5 Stand Bag
Ball: Maxfli Tour

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I'm a big fan of the Adidas Boost 2.0. I walk all of my rounds and they're still in great condition 2 years later. Didn't realize just how waterproof they were until I played in pouring rain then a saturated course with standing water back to back rounds (different courses). Funny to say it but my socks were the only dry clothing on my body after both affairs. 

I bought them as bang-for-buck shoes but they've turned out to be just plain BANG! 💥

In my ATumSBM.jpg Pisa, riding on a hXf3ptG.jpg 3.5+

:ping-small: G410+
:755178188_TourEdge: EXS 5W
:cobra-small: King F7 Hy

:ping-small: i500 5-GW
wxW5hk4.jpg Equalizer 56/60
:ping-small: Heppler Ketsch

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My absolute favorite shoe is the Ecco Biom series. Styling is questionable, but they are sooo comfortable and last a really long time. 

Wilson Staff C300 9.0* Fujikura Pro 58 stiff

Callaway Rogue 3W Mitsubishi Diamana D+ LTD 80 stiff

Mizuno MP-18 MMC FLI-HI 2 iron UST Mamiya Recoil 95 stiff

Ping I200's 4-W Aerotech Steelfiber I110 CW stiff

Ping Glide 52* and 58* stiff

Bettinardi Studio Stock #38 Armlock

 

 

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54 minutes ago, GolfSpy STUDque said:

I'm a big fan of the Adidas Boost 2.0. I walk all of my rounds and they're still in great condition 2 years later. Didn't realize just how waterproof they were until I played in pouring rain then a saturated course with standing water back to back rounds (different courses). Funny to say it but my socks were the only dry clothing on my body after both affairs. 

I bought them as bang-for-buck shoes but they've turned out to be just plain BANG! 💥

I've owned Adidas in the past (in fact I played most of my soccer as a kid sporting Adidas) and they were quite comfortable. The major issue I had with them is that the lower portion of the sole started to separate from the mid-sole (a result of how my feet work on the downswing). I'll definitely have to give them a look again though as I honestly had kinda started to forget about Adidas for whatever reason. Saw several intriguing models on RockBottomGolf. Thanks for the insight.

Driver: :mizuno-small: ST190 9.5* Fujikura Atmos Blue 5S
Fairway Wood: :mizuno-small: ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S
Hybrid: :mizuno-small: CLK 17* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
Irons: :bridgestone-small: J40 CB (3-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
Wedges: :taylormade-small: Milled Grind 2 54* & 58* Dynamic Gold S200
Putter: :odyssey-small: Tri-Hot 5k Two 34"
Bag: :titleist-small: Players 5 Stand Bag
Ball: Maxfli Tour

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57 minutes ago, GB13 said:

My absolute favorite shoe is the Ecco Biom series. Styling is questionable, but they are sooo comfortable and last a really long time. 

I've looked at Ecco off and on over the years and never could settle on a pair I liked. I just looked up the BIOM Hybrid 3GTX which looks quite good (in the white/black colorway). Anything I could easily wear to and from the course is a plus so these will definitely be in the running.

Driver: :mizuno-small: ST190 9.5* Fujikura Atmos Blue 5S
Fairway Wood: :mizuno-small: ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S
Hybrid: :mizuno-small: CLK 17* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
Irons: :bridgestone-small: J40 CB (3-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
Wedges: :taylormade-small: Milled Grind 2 54* & 58* Dynamic Gold S200
Putter: :odyssey-small: Tri-Hot 5k Two 34"
Bag: :titleist-small: Players 5 Stand Bag
Ball: Maxfli Tour

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Skechers are the way to go.  I have two pair that aren't water resistant or water proof, but if I need a pair of comfortable shoes, skechers are what I wear.  They are miles ahead of anyone else, comfort wise.  At least for me anyway.

  • :ping-small: G400 Driver
  • :callaway-small: XR 4 Fairway 16.5°
  • :mizuno-small: Fli-Hi Utility Iron - 21°
  • :ping-small: G Series 5-9 irons
  • :titelist-small: :vokey-small: SM7 46°, 50°, 54° & 58°
  • :taylormade-small: Ghost Spider S putter
  • :918457628_PrecisionPro:Nexus Laser Rangefinder
  • Garmin Approach S20 GPS
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I was thinking about this very subject just last night. I was on Zappos browsing around at various shoes. Not necessarily golf specific shoes either. I might consider and athletic or perhaps a running shoe of some flavor soon. Not sure if a running shoe is viable as the soles seem to be fairly smooth. I rarely play on a wet course but slippage is a concern without having some type of gripping sole. Also many if not most running shoes are made in loud colors which isn't my thing. I own several pair of golf shoes mostly with soft spikes and one is a FJ spikeless pair which I'm not all that thrilled with. My most recent purchase last summer was New Balance Minimus Tour. They are alright but not all that comfortable. Just ok. And they are made out of something but it's not leather. Synthetic I suppose. I'm looking now so if I find something I might come back and see if anyone has experience.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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I have worn True Linkswear for many years.  The original Tour shoe was great; their shoes for the last few years... not so much.  But I haven't tried the new Original, but I will likely buy a pair this spring.  It looks like they fixed some of the issues, so I'll try them again.  They were the most comfortable shoes I have worn.  Personally, I like the big toe box.  I can live with the looks if shoes are comfortable.

I bought a pair of Skechers V3 Elite last year and they are pretty comfy too.  It took me a little while getting used to them; different than the Trues, but I haven't had any problems with comfort.

 

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I have worn True Linkswear for many years.  The original Tour shoe was great; their shoes for the last few years... not so much.  But I haven't tried the new Original, but I will likely buy a pair this spring.  It looks like they fixed some of the issues, so I'll try them again.  They were the most comfortable shoes I have worn.  Personally, I like the big toe box.  I can live with the looks if shoes are comfortable.
I bought a pair of Skechers V3 Elite last year and they are pretty comfy too.  It took me a little while getting used to them; different than the Trues, but I haven't had any problems with comfort.
 

I felt the same way for a while. Had some Trues that were terrible. But I got a pair of the new OG’s in green. They are the bomb. True really has retooled their design and manufacturing to a very high standard. I cannot day enough about how happy I am with my new True’s. Give them a try you will not be dissatisfied. And if you are they have a money back guarantee.
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I'm definitely giving the true originals a try this spring. I thought about holding off and maybe going for the new Majors, but after thinking it over the originals are probably a better bet for my first pair of trues.

Bag: Bennington Quiet Organizer 9-Lite (link)

Cart: :Clicgear: 3.5+

Driver:  :cobra-small:  F9 speedback, Accra iWood

Woods:  Sonartec GS Tour 14*, Fujikura Six S
DI:  :titelist-small:  T-MB 2 iron, KBS Tour-V 120 X,
Irons: :Miura: PP-9003SN 4-GW, Nippon 1150GH Stiff
Wedges: :Miura: 1957 K-grind SW, LW, Nippon 1150GH Stiff
Putter: :odyssey-small: EXO Indianapolis (link)
Ball: :Snell: MTB
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I'll try to keep this short and simple. Looking for recommendations on a new golf shoe. I currently own a pair of FJ Freestyles and a pair of cheap Pumas. Neither are comfortable for me to walk in. The Pumas don't have enough cushion to be comfortable for 18 holes and they aren't waterproof (water-resistant for you special people). The FJ's no longer keep water out and something about them causes pain in my big toe on my right foot. Anyway, I'm looking for something that will be comfortable for 18 or even 36 holes and does a good job keeping water out. Spiked or spikeless doesn't really matter. Just looking for a good comfortable shoe. The best shoe I had previously was the FJ GreenJoys from a couple years ago. Anything like that would be great!
I have seriously been eyeing the TRUE Original, but I'm worried about the wide toe box - their description says up to EEE for that section of the shoe. I'm worried that would allow too much movement for my foot. For reference, I'm perfectly suited to a US Men's 10.5 D...
Thanks!

Under armor Spieth 2, I love everything about them but make sure you try them on if you can or note that they fit right at a half size large.



In the bag
Driver: Callaway Rogue Subzero 9.5 Stiff flex
3 wood: Callaway Rogue Subzero 15 degree
Hybrids: 17 degree titleist 816 h2
Irons: Ben Hogan Ptx 22-46 degree (4-pw)stiff flex standard lie
Wedges: Callaway Mac Daddy 4 50,54,58 degrees
Putter: Odyssey EXO seven

Gig’em Aggies!

Right Handed

4.5 handicap

Driver: Nike Vapor Flex with Mitsubishi Rayon Fubuki ZT60x5ct S-flex shaft and stock grip.

3-Metal: Nike VRS 15 degree with Mitsubishi Rayon tour issue Diamana S73x5ct X-flex shaft and GolfPride MCC midsize Black/White grip.

Irons: Ben Hogan PTx 22, 26, 30, 34, 38, 42, 46 degrees standard length and lie with KBS Tour-V stiff shafts and GolfPride MCC midsize Black/White grips.

Wedges: Ben Hogan TK15 54, 58 degrees with KBS Tour-V X-flex shafts and GolfPride MCC midsize Black/White grips.

Putter: Nike Method Converge B1|01 with Superstroke Flatso 2.0 grip.

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I have had the original True's, Ecco biom's and Sketchers. I don't know about the current True shoes, but I have flat feet and need some real arch support, the OG True's almost killed me, made my foot feel like I broke it in half. 

I love the Ecco's I've had a pair for 6 years now, they are still in great shape. The Yak leather is waterproof and incredibly durable. Only down side to them, is the price, they are great but come at a premium. 

 

I liked up a pair of the Sketchers GoGolf last year and think they are also very very comfortable. I'd have to look at the model, but I did get a waterproof version, it rains in these here parts, a lot. They have kept my feet dry in plenty of miserable weather days. 

 

Side note, I have double wide feet, which makes shoe shopping a little more challenging. Adidas doesn't make a shoe wide enough for me, so I can't speak to them. Ecco doesn't make a "wide" shoe, but I find their standard fit to work. But on pure comfort, the Sketchers are going to win. 

WITB:

Driver:   :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 12° - Accra TZ6 M4

FW Wood:     th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg Gen5 0311 7w  Fujikura Motore X F3

Irons:   :srixon-small: ZX7 PW-7i, ZX5 6i-5i

Wedges: :cleveland-small:  Zipcore 50°, 58°

Putter:   :taylormade-small: MySpider X

Cart: image.png.5aa5e9b8c0d6e08a2b12be76a06a07ca.pngOnewheel XR+

Ball: :srixon-small: Z-Star Diamond/ Z-Star XV

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Nike Lunar Control Vapor. I have 2 pairs in Wide fit. I walk most of my rounds and they're the right fit for me, water resistant, and very light making it so much easier to walk in


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Driver:  :taylormade-small: 2017 M1 Driver 10.5* Project X HZRDUS Yellow 6.5

3 Wood:  :taylormade-small: 2017 M1  15* Project X HZRDUS Red 6.0

3 Hybrid:  :taylormade-small: 2017 M1  3 Hybrid

Irons:  Mizuno JPX 900 Forged (4-GW) w/ KBS C-Taper Lite Regular shafts

Wedges:  Mizuno T7 50*, 54*, 58*

Putter:  Scotty Cameron 2020 Special Select Newport 2

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7 hours ago, Thin2win said:

I have had the original True's, Ecco biom's and Sketchers. I don't know about the current True shoes, but I have flat feet and need some real arch support, the OG True's almost killed me, made my foot feel like I broke it in half. 

This is the other thing that concerns me a bit about the TRUE.

Driver: :mizuno-small: ST190 9.5* Fujikura Atmos Blue 5S
Fairway Wood: :mizuno-small: ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S
Hybrid: :mizuno-small: CLK 17* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
Irons: :bridgestone-small: J40 CB (3-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
Wedges: :taylormade-small: Milled Grind 2 54* & 58* Dynamic Gold S200
Putter: :odyssey-small: Tri-Hot 5k Two 34"
Bag: :titleist-small: Players 5 Stand Bag
Ball: Maxfli Tour

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I can’t speak to the shoe hurting my feet but I have had plantar fasciitis in the past and have never experienced True’s hurting my feet. I have had 5 different styles of Trues and if they are nothing else they were always comfortable. I still keep a pair of the Oxfords to wear casually as they look great and are still comfortable. They lost their ability to keep my feet dry ( was a problem with the model and they replaced them twice for free) and I can’t really golf in them any longer. The OG’s are so good I don’t think anything other then the new brown color way or the Major’s could pry them off my feet.
I am a Nurse, a former Marine and a walking golfer. I have very high standards for my shoes.

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7 hours ago, ajchang said:

Nike Lunar Control Vapor. I have 2 pairs in Wide fit. I walk most of my rounds and they're the right fit for me, water resistant, and very light making it so much easier to walk in


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

I agree with the Lunar Control.  You really can't go wrong with any iteration of this shoe.  I walk 95% of my rounds and play 5-6 days per week.  They are comfortable straight out of the box and very durable. 

Fun fact; I recently found a brand new unopened pair of Lunar Control II while cleaning out the garage.  I'm all set for a while. 

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Thanks everyone for the responses. I spent much of the weekend reading shoe reviews and checking prices on multiple sites. I just ordered the Adidas Tour 360 Boost 2.0 after much debate. I was originally leaning toward the Ecco Biom Hybrid 3 GTX as mentioned earlier, but decided against them after hearing Adam's comments in the MGS 2018 Buyer's Guide for spikeless shoes (which I almost didn't watch). The buyers guide was very helpful as it opened my eyes to other aspects of the shoe I hadn't fully considered like stability.

In the end, it came down to either the Adidas or a pair of Sketchers Go Golf Pro V.4 Honors. However, not knowing nearly enough about Sketchers' waterproofing technology or their warranty (which I couldn't seem to find on their site) and the fact that they were nearly $30 more I opted for the Adidas this time around. I did also send an email to TRUE about the toe box section and they felt confident I wouldn't feel too much movement, but ultimately I just wasn't willing to make the jump on those.

To sum up the list of recommendations for anyone in the same boat:

  • Adidas Tour 360 Boost 2.0
  • Ecco Biom series
  • TRUE Linkswear
  • Sketchers GoGolf
  • Under Armor Spieth 2
  • Nike Lunar Control Vapor

NOTE: If any of you are interested in a good deal, Carl's Golfland currently has their Demo Days sale going on with discounts on a wide range of items plus free shipping. Got an instant $10 off the Adidas. Total came to $118.99 - (discount + no tax + no shipping = WIN).

Edited by TR1PTIK
NOTE

Driver: :mizuno-small: ST190 9.5* Fujikura Atmos Blue 5S
Fairway Wood: :mizuno-small: ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S
Hybrid: :mizuno-small: CLK 17* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
Irons: :bridgestone-small: J40 CB (3-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
Wedges: :taylormade-small: Milled Grind 2 54* & 58* Dynamic Gold S200
Putter: :odyssey-small: Tri-Hot 5k Two 34"
Bag: :titleist-small: Players 5 Stand Bag
Ball: Maxfli Tour

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Do you have a PGA Superstore near, or other large golf retailer? The best thing to do, I’ve found, is to go try-on every single style a store carries. I went to two different stores so I was able to try on just about every style, by every brand, then made a ranking, and recorded what size I’d need. That’s how I decided to get a few pairs of the FJ Pro SL, last year’s model. I’ve seen too many reviews say something is “comfortable” and they turn out to be hard to me.
Good luck!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X

Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X

Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X

Irons:  Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50D/54V/58D:Nippon:Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX

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Skechers Go Golfs are the way to go. In my opinion, I own 2 pair. I’ve walked 36 numerous times


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Titleist 917D2 10.5

Ben Hogan GS53 3 Wood

PING G425 MAX 5 Wood

Cleveland UHX Launcher 3 Iron

PING G30 5-PW

Cleveland RTX 3.0 50/10 V-MG

Cleveland RTX 3.0 54/14  V-FG

Cleveland RTX 3.0 58/12 V -FG

EVNROLL ER-3

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4 hours ago, kingcscott said:

I can’t speak to the shoe hurting my feet but I have had plantar fasciitis in the past and have never experienced True’s hurting my feet. I have had 5 different styles of Trues and if they are nothing else they were always comfortable. I still keep a pair of the Oxfords to wear casually as they look great and are still comfortable. They lost their ability to keep my feet dry ( was a problem with the model and they replaced them twice for free) and I can’t really golf in them any longer. The OG’s are so good I don’t think anything other then the new brown color way or the Major’s could pry them off my feet.
I am a Nurse, a former Marine and a walking golfer. I have very high standards for my shoes.

I've loved my Trues over the years; the last few years models didn't last very well, but I hear good things about the Original, OG and Major.  I will be getting a pair (not sure which model) this spring.  I'm just not that excited about the Brown.  I really don't think brown shoes goes very well with any shorts; maybe I need to re-evaluate.

The thing I like about Trues is that wearing these shoes is the closest thing to playing barefoot.  I feel more connected to the ground.  When wearing any other shoe, I feel like I'm wearing elevator shoes.  My Skechers GoGolf shoes took a month of wearing to get used to being "so high off the ground."

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Tried the new versions of the Original Trues and the other model they came out with when they came back a couple of years ago. I found both unwearable without inserts...with inserts they're usable. I wear the Originals actually as every day shoes in the winter, and may try the other model for golf in the spring, but without the insert, I found them to be awful.

ECCO Biom and the Skechers are my go to walking shoes - love them both for comfort and stability.  

 

What's in the bag:
 
Driver:  :titelist-small:TSR3; :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR Carbon
FW Wood: :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR 3-wood; :titleist-small: TSR 2+
Hybrids:  PXG Gen4 18-degree
Utility Irons: :srixon-small: ZX MkII 20* 
Irons:;  :Sub70:699/699 Pro V2 Combo; :wilson_staff_small: D9 Forged;  :macgregor-small:MT86 (coming soon!); :macgregor-small: VIP 1025 V-Foil MB/CB; 

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: RTX6 Zipcore
Putter: :cleveland-small: HB Soft Milled 10.5;  :scotty-small: Newport Special Select;  :edel-golf-1:  Willamette,  :bettinardi-small: BB8; :wilson-small: 8802; MATI Monto

Ball: :bridgestone-small: Tour B RXS; :srixon-small: Z-STAR Diamond; :wilson_staff_small: Triad

Stat Tracker/GPS Watch: :ShotScope:


 
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16 hours ago, kingcscott said:

I can’t speak to the shoe hurting my feet but I have had plantar fasciitis in the past and have never experienced True’s hurting my feet. I have had 5 different styles of Trues and if they are nothing else they were always comfortable. I still keep a pair of the Oxfords to wear casually as they look great and are still comfortable. They lost their ability to keep my feet dry ( was a problem with the model and they replaced them twice for free) and I can’t really golf in them any longer. The OG’s are so good I don’t think anything other then the new brown color way or the Major’s could pry them off my feet.
I am a Nurse, a former Marine and a walking golfer. I have very high standards for my shoes.

I really wanted to live the True's when I got them. I was working at Bandon at the time and they were all the rage there, I feel like 1 in 3 guests bought a part that summer. 

my issue with them was how the toe box curved up. I think it was too promote a more natural foot flex, turns out that just didn't work for my precious feet. I still have them, my wife calls them my clown shoes because of how wide they are at the toe, and that they are pure white... 

WITB:

Driver:   :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 12° - Accra TZ6 M4

FW Wood:     th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg Gen5 0311 7w  Fujikura Motore X F3

Irons:   :srixon-small: ZX7 PW-7i, ZX5 6i-5i

Wedges: :cleveland-small:  Zipcore 50°, 58°

Putter:   :taylormade-small: MySpider X

Cart: image.png.5aa5e9b8c0d6e08a2b12be76a06a07ca.pngOnewheel XR+

Ball: :srixon-small: Z-Star Diamond/ Z-Star XV

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  • 4 weeks later...

I've always enjoyed True ... haven't tried the newest models yet.  The wider toe box suits my foot well.  My other choice has been Sketcher's.  However, I rarely walk anymore -- knees just don't do well as they should.

Driver: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max (10.5* set at -1 and neutral) -- Mitsubishi Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Fairway: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max 3 wood (16.5*) and Heaven Wood (20*)-- Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Hybrids: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max 5H (23*)--Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Irons:  :callaway-small: Apex CF19 6-9, PW, AW -- KBS Tour Graphite  TGI 70 shafts R +1/2 inch 3* upright

Wedges: Edison 53* and  57* KBS PGI 80 Graphite +1/2 inch 2* upright

Putter: L.A.B. DF 2.1 -- BGT Stability shaft

Ball:  Maxfli TourX...Golf Bag: :ping-small: Pioneer...Shoes: :footjoy-small: Hyperflex... Glove: Red Rooster Feather

 

My Photography can be seen at Smugmug

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1 hour ago, Chadly said:

I walked 30+ rounds last year in a pair of Skechers Elite V3. They’re great. Stable. Waterproof. Comfortable. 

I bought a pair last year.  It took awhile too get used to them coming from Trues, but I like them now.

 

36 minutes ago, CarlH said:

I've always enjoyed True ... haven't tried the newest models yet.  The wider toe box suits my foot well.  My other choice has been Sketcher's.  However, I rarely walk anymore -- knees just don't do well as they should.

I still wear Trues occasionally and like them.  I haven't tried the latest models yet either; probably get a pair before summer.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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