Pace of Play Survey

[bens197]

This ties directly to the posts about golf courses closing across the country...bear with me...

Revenue is at a premium, public and private clubs are getting by with as few as possible to make the place function.  Ask anyone in the golf business and you'll see that most operations have 1-3 cart barn guys depending on the course and day, and at least one person in the shop.  One Ranger acts as the "policing enforcer" and guards the first tee.  As sad as it sounds, $12-15/hr staff adds up quick and that then eliminates the ranger.  

5 people making $15/hour for a 9 hour day is a fixed $675 in straight hourly costs.  That doesn't include any benefits, workers comp or other mandated taxes and insurance for each employee.  

It's clearly more complicated than this but there are plenty of courses that are public and private alike in Rochester who have done away with or reduced days where a ranger drives the course.  

 

 

 

[kikbuti]

Let's not forget the foursome who sits around writing down scores and reorganizing golf bags before leaving the hole they just completed.  drives me nuts.  there's plenty time to do that on the next tee.

[palvord]

17 hours ago, bens197 said:

This ties directly to the posts about golf courses closing across the country...bear with me...

Revenue is at a premium, public and private clubs are getting by with as few as possible to make the place function.  Ask anyone in the golf business and you'll see that most operations have 1-3 cart barn guys depending on the course and day, and at least one person in the shop.  One Ranger acts as the "policing enforcer" and guards the first tee.  As sad as it sounds, $12-15/hr staff adds up quick and that then eliminates the ranger.  

5 people making $15/hour for a 9 hour day is a fixed $675 in straight hourly costs.  That doesn't include any benefits, workers comp or other mandated taxes and insurance for each employee.  

It's clearly more complicated than this but there are plenty of courses that are public and private alike in Rochester who have done away with or reduced days where a ranger drives the course.  

 

 

 

This cost is felt even more at municipal courses where the workers must be provided benefits as it is a government position.  The cost to staff a municipal course is a very expensive proposition and makes it difficult for munis to break even.

[occiputt]

On 2/18/2019 at 12:57 PM, gaussman1 said:

There's turtles on both ends of the handicap spectrum. A couple of the slowest players I know are legitimate +4/+5s. They qualify for USGA events and are some of the better golfers in the state but they simply refuse to play faster, or to even acknowledge the pace of other players. They go through their full routine for every shot and if a butterfly sneezes in an adjoining meadow they back up and do it all over again. They have it in their heads that it is part of being good but the reality is they're really good because they play really well, not because they take forever.

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I’ve often wondered why it’s so difficult for some to allow another to play through if you’re slow.  For me, it’s common courtesy to allow the group behind me to play through if they’re waiting for my group on every shot, unless there is no where to go.  In this case, the whole course is slow so just enjoy the fact that you’re out golfing!  Remember, a bad day on the course is better than any day at work!

[Kenny B]

22 hours ago, bens197 said:

This ties directly to the posts about golf courses closing across the country...bear with me...

Revenue is at a premium, public and private clubs are getting by with as few as possible to make the place function.  Ask anyone in the golf business and you'll see that most operations have 1-3 cart barn guys depending on the course and day, and at least one person in the shop.  One Ranger acts as the "policing enforcer" and guards the first tee.  As sad as it sounds, $12-15/hr staff adds up quick and that then eliminates the ranger.  

5 people making $15/hour for a 9 hour day is a fixed $675 in straight hourly costs.  That doesn't include any benefits, workers comp or other mandated taxes and insurance for each employee.  

It's clearly more complicated than this but there are plenty of courses that are public and private alike in Rochester who have done away with or reduced days where a ranger drives the course.  

 

4 hours ago, palvord said:

This cost is felt even more at municipal courses where the workers must be provided benefits as it is a government position.  The cost to staff a municipal course is a very expensive proposition and makes it difficult for munis to break even.

Our muni is doing well.  Positions at the course are not "government positions".  The city contracts to a management company to run and operate the course, and the city gets a specific percentage based on the number of rounds played.  

We actually have two pros, one is the managing director for the company and the other is a teaching pro and also works the pro shop.  A couple of other part time help also works the shop, and a couple of kids run the carts, pick the range, and wash balls.  On weekends we have a starter who also acts as a ranger, and we have one other ranger.  There are several volunteers performing these jobs for playing privileges.  The management company has a Greenskeeper and they hire course workers for maintenance.  The management company has a similar contract with a different muni in town and equipment like verticut machines are shared.

[palvord]

Our muni is doing well.  Positions at the course are not "government positions".  The city contracts to a management company to run and operate the course, and the city gets a specific percentage based on the number of rounds played.  
We actually have two pros, one is the managing director for the company and the other is a teaching pro and also works the pro shop.  A couple of other part time help also works the shop, and a couple of kids run the carts, pick the range, and wash balls.  On weekends we have a starter who also acts as a ranger, and we have one other ranger.  There are several volunteers performing these jobs for playing privileges.  The management company has a Greenskeeper and they hire course workers for maintenance.  The management company has a similar contract with a different muni in town and equipment like verticut machines are shared.

That is a great way to handle the concern of pay from the government entity controlling the municipal course.


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[Angry Yeti]

I always enjoy slow play threads and conversations. What people enjoy and hope for when playing 18 can vary so much. It's fun to read.

Personally, slow play drives me crazy. I lose my mental rhythm and struggle to finish a round. I don't play Tee times after 7:30am on weekends for this very reason, and will call to ask before playing any weekday rounds. If I have 5-6+ hours to play, I'd rather play 27 holes at a regular pace than sit and wait before every shot. 

There are a lot of contributing factors to slow play. Ultimately I think the course is responsible for holding people to a pace they find acceptable. If they are OK with 18 holes taking 6 hours, I'll likely take my business elsewhere. They are not obligated to match their rules to my opinions.

General human decency should be enough for people to sort things out between themselves on the course. If you're walking slow on the sidewalk, you don't prevent people from passing you. Why would letting someone play through on the golf course be any different. It doesn't always happen, but I find most people pretty reasonable if you approach them nicely.

[CarlH]

I don't think it's unreasonable to play a round of golf in under 4 hours, regardless of skill level, or whether on carts or walking.   And, while I dislike slow play, I am far more tolerant of slower players in front of me (if the reason for their slow play isn't screwing around between shots and taking 14 practice swings each time) than I am if I'm in  a slow group.  I hate when my group has a slow player in it and the group behind me is waiting on us, regardless of how much I press the slow player.  Even though I'm not the slow player, I feel rushed.  Crazy.

[Specneeds]

If you are playing a competitive round or betting more than casually your mental toughness should be tuned in to allow you to not be bothered and stay focused.  On the other hand trying to get in as many holes as you can just playing after work rude players deliberately playing slowly, hitting extra balls etc. really get under my skin.  To the point that I'll hit it as closely as I possibly can after they clear a green or get just beyond range.......not the most mature approach but rude deserves a little return of the same.  Beginners and the elderly excepted of course.

[shack544]

I just don't understand what goes thru the minds of idiots who think a 5 hour round is fun. When my group is the first to tee off in the morning we usually play in just over 3 hours. When we tee off at 2:00, it sometimes takes 4 1/2 to 5 hours at some courses. It drives me nuts to see 2 holes open ahead of a group who has guys standing around watching each other hit their shots. Waiting until it's their turn to even select a club. And someone please tell me how it could take over 5 minutes for 4 guys to putt out? WTF. 

[KevinJ]

I just played a three hour round for 9 holes of golf.  At times there were three groups stacked up on a tee.  While this was a muni course.  I played at 11:30 am on a Monday.  They do have a seniors league that plays, but there should be no reason to this length of round.  I played with my Step mom who is 83 and even she was upset on how long it took.    The marshals did little to nothing to speed up play.  Some people played from the blue tees just because it was so slow, while they were not bad, they would wait until the people were off the green to hit there second shot, and what did you know, they were not even close to the green.  

 

Rarely will I play on a weekend, unless  it is with good friends because people don't understand that their pace of play needs to be with the group in front, not the people behind them.  While I rarely to post (most people have already stated the same reasons that I think, and why blabber about the same thing) this one does drive me nuts.

 

Thanks for reading my rant on this

[Shankster]

I hear Bubba and JT got around in 3 and some change on Saturday... first out, but still.

[Kenny B]

Slow players on tour exposed by Edoardo Molinari on Twitter...

Slow players on the European Tour, by Italy’s Edoardo Molinari, who released a list of the tour’s slow-play violators via Twitter. Molinari, the older brother of reigning British Open champion Francesco Molinari, tweeted a list of the tour’s slow-play miscreants through April 22 and vowed an update in late June. Said Molinari, 38, a three-time winner on the tour, in his tweet: “It’s time that professional golf does something serious for slow play ... 5h30min to play 18 holes on a golf course without rough is just too long ... way too long!” In response, Graeme McDowell told Golf Channel’s Brentley Romine that Molinari is “flogging a dead horse,” adding: “There’s just no way to speed the game up, really. You can try these small percentiles, but at the end of the day, it’s very hard to get around a 7,600-yard golf course with tucked pins with a three-ball in less than 4:45, 5 hours. You can’t do it.”

[palvord]

Slow players on tour exposed by Edoardo Molinari on Twitter...
Slow players on the European Tour, by Italy’s Edoardo Molinari, who released a list of the tour’s slow-play violators via Twitter. Molinari, the older brother of reigning British Open champion Francesco Molinari, tweeted a list of the tour’s slow-play miscreants through April 22 and vowed an update in late June. Said Molinari, 38, a three-time winner on the tour, in his tweet: “It’s time that professional golf does something serious for slow play ... 5h30min to play 18 holes on a golf course without rough is just too long ... way too long!” In response, Graeme McDowell told Golf Channel’s Brentley Romine that Molinari is “flogging a dead horse,” adding: “There’s just no way to speed the game up, really. You can try these small percentiles, but at the end of the day, it’s very hard to get around a 7,600-yard golf course with tucked pins with a three-ball in less than 4:45, 5 hours. You can’t do it.”

If play is not going to speed up on the professional level with the current “penalties” in place, something like this social pressure may help change things on the tours.


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[DaveP043]

9 hours ago, palvord said:

If play is not going to speed up on the professional level with the current “penalties” in place, something like this social pressure may help change things on the tours.

I don't think that many of the slow players care.  GMac says they can't possibly play any faster.  Remember Bryson, who says its pretty impressive that they can plan and hit a shot within 40 seconds, really impressive.  And Jason Day said not long ago that he'd use whatever time he felt he needed to take to play his best.  

In my opinion, it will take stroke penalties, and the current slow play policy makes it really difficult to play slow enough for long enough to get a penalty stroke.

[palvord]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't think that many of the slow players care.  GMac says they can't possibly play any faster.  Remember Bryson, who says its pretty impressive that they can plan and hit a shot within 40 seconds, really impressive.  And Jason Day said not long ago that he'd use whatever time he felt he needed to take to play his best.  

In my opinion, it will take stroke penalties, and the current slow play policy makes it really difficult to play slow enough for long enough to get a penalty stroke.

I do believe that the only real thing that will create change is stroke penalties. Right now fines are just viewed as the cost of doing business.

[DiscipleofPenick]

Agreed. Stroke penalties are the best way to go. Need to start hitting thier wallet harder.

Take Dead Aim

[Kenny B]

56 minutes ago, palvord said:

I do believe that the only real thing that will create change is stroke penalties. Right now fines are just viewed as the cost of doing business.

Fines only affect those players at the bottom of the rankings; the ones that struggle to make the cut each week.  I agree that stroke penalties will help speed up play, but the tour will only do it when sponsors require it.

[Brian A]

This will always be the biggest problem I have playing, not that I dont enjoy my round but waiting and waiting kills my game

[StrokerAce]

Hard to blame Matt Every from this last weekend but this should --never-- happen at a PGA tour event.

The PGA has a serious issue on their hands and they need to address it ASAP.

 

Matt Every is the hero we all need. 16 fairway. Final round. pic.twitter.com/PxoPpfWUjU

— Drew Carr (@DrewCarr_) February 17, 2019