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Tyler Ferrell -Motorcycle Move


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I've noticed that there are quite a lot of posters in a certain well known Golf forum  'plugging' something called the 'MOTORCYCLE MOVE'.  They are actively promoting people to buy Tyler Ferrells 'Stock Tour  Swing' book or registering and prescribing to his 'Golf Smart Academy' website.

In simple terms the 'motorcycle move' advocates that the golfer bows/twists their wrists in such a way that it closes the clubface relative to its path somewhere in their swing (mainly during transition/ downswing) to limit the conscious need to rotate the arms later in the downswing to square the clubface by impact . Basically,  once wrist bowing/twisting done to close the face relative to path , just pivot through impact using your body rotation.

I and other posters have basically provided proof and expert opinion that totally questions this golf instruction because it actually does the 'opposite' of what it claims (which is awful for golf instruction purposes) .  It can be shown that the bowing of the wrist actually opens the clubface to the 'ball -target line'  when approaching impact and that the golfer will have to rotate their lead forearm even more to square the clubface (if they retain a bowed wrist to impact).

Now the conundrum!  As soon as one posts  anything that questions this instruction, they are immediately banned from that golf forum forever for  'abusive behaviour'.

It almost seems that there is some secret agreement between Tyler Ferrell and the forum marshalls to prevent any logical debate that could have a detrimental effect on the sales of his book or subscription to his website (no matter how ruinous it could be to recreational golfers mechanics). People are paying good money for possibly misleading/inaccurate  instruction and that is a disgrace.

Is this the norm for golf forums , to quell debate that might effect the marketing and sales of a 'fad' golf instruction product? Hopefully MYGOLFSPY will always remain unbiased and relish free debate without retribution (as long as it is done in a respectable and courteous manner).

 

 

 

 

Edited by Wildthing
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1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

(mainly during transition/ downswing) to limit the conscious need to rotate the arms later in the downswing to square the clubface by impact . Basically,  once wrist bowing/twisting done to close the face relative to path , just pivot through impact using your body rotation.

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't know there was a conscious need to rotate the arms. They usually follow the body rotation. However I'm no expert or coach but it sounds a bit like snake oil to me.

*edit* just googled and it appears its called the reverse motorcycle move, in other words what DJ (and some other tour players) do at the top of the swing with a bowed left wrist. In that case it sounds ok to me and just something some can do and some cant. I wonder why people are being banned for questioning something that's been talked about for years.

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5 hours ago, perseveringgolfer said:

I didn't know there was a conscious need to rotate the arms. They usually follow the body rotation. However I'm no expert or coach but it sounds a bit like snake oil to me.

*edit* just googled and it appears its called the reverse motorcycle move, in other words what DJ (and some other tour players) do at the top of the swing with a bowed left wrist. In that case it sounds ok to me and just something some can do and some cant. I wonder why people are being banned for questioning something that's been talked about for years.

I corrected my original post and struck through the word conscious (probably incorrect wording by me). Yes your right, its called the 'Reverse Motorcycle Move'. The people who banned me are always promoting TF's book , academy and you-tube videos. I've never said anything abusive or derogatory and just debated findings that question their instruction logic. 

What makes it so laughable is that Tyler Ferrell was involved in work done on TPI graphs (Titleist Performance Institute) using 3D technology systems and has used the pga pro-golfers graphs to develop his theories like the 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' . Yet when I posted comments from an email I received from the  director of TPI which contradicted TF's opinions, they immediately banned me.

Some mysterious things happening in the golf world!

 

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Is it me or does it seem that every social media golf coach wants to be insta-famous for some new hot thing?


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25 minutes ago, jlukes said:

This isnt new or unique. Crossfield speaks of revving the bike to start the downswing in videos that are 6+ years old. And I'm sure there were others before him. 

 

But I'm not really sure what this thread is about so... Yeah we are friendly here.... 

It’s a lot of instructors who talk about this. Athletic motion golf is another one I’ve seen. Iirc Chris Ryan just did a video on it recently. I’ve also had two instructors who wanted me to make sure I used that move. 

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20 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s a lot of instructors who talk about this. Athletic motion golf is another one I’ve seen. Iirc Chris Ryan just did a video on it recently. I’ve also had two instructors who wanted me to make sure I used that move. 

If you don't mind me asking, why did they want you to do this move?

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54 minutes ago, jlukes said:

This isnt new or unique. Crossfield speaks of revving the bike to start the downswing in videos that are 6+ years old. And I'm sure there were others before him. 

 

But I'm not really sure what this thread is about so... Yeah we are friendly here.... 

Interesting video but I think Tyler Ferrell is resurrecting  this 'move'  not to cure an OTT move (or slice) but to promote a more pivot driven swing where one minimizes the degree of forearm rolling in the late downswing.

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33 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

If you don't mind me asking, why did they want you to do this move?

To get away from cupping and to get the clubface square at impact. 

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Yeah, it's something I need to work on some. IMO, this is another of example of instruction that works for a select group of people. Not everyone needs to do this. If you look at the Tour, I can think of 2 people that do this, DJ, and Daniel Berger. It works great for them while all of the other Tour players do fine without it. There is no instruction that works for everyone, and this is no exception. 

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3 minutes ago, GB13 said:

Yeah, it's something I need to work on some. IMO, this is another of example of instruction that works for a select group of people. Not everyone needs to do this. If you look at the Tour, I can think of 2 people that do this, DJ, and Daniel Berger. It works great for them while all of the other Tour players do fine without it. There is no instruction that works for everyone, and this is no exception. 

I think if you look at the vast majority of your pros when they get the club parallel to the ground on the downswing are in this position. 

The lead wrist is flat to slight bow and the trail wrist is cupped. They may not turn the hand hard because many are already flat at the top but it’s a subtle movement.

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3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I think if you look at the vast majority of your pros when they get the club parallel to the ground on the downswing are in this position. 

The lead wrist is flat to slight bow and the trail wrist is cupped. They may not turn the hand hard because many are already flat at the top but it’s a subtle movement.

http://www.mytpi.com/articles/swing/put_a_little_gas_in_your_game

 

Yes, I agree. Flat to slightly bowed. I was talking the extreme bow that it sounds like the "Reverse Motorcycle" is. 

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53 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

Interesting video but I think Tyler Ferrell is resurrecting  this 'move'  not to cure an OTT move (or slice) but to promote a more pivot driven swing where one minimizes the degree of forearm rolling in the late downswing.

Yup.  It is a fantastic move as it makes the player rely more on body rotation rather than small hand movements.  Keeps the club face square for much longer.  It is an extremely popular technique that we are seeing more pros teach due to the better understandings of body kinematics and sequencing we have now.

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7 minutes ago, GB13 said:

Yes, I agree. Flat to slightly bowed. I was talking the extreme bow that it sounds like the "Reverse Motorcycle" is. 

Yeah that’s a perception that imo many get from watching dj or rahm. But in reality it’s just a subtle move

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10 hours ago, jlukes said:

Yup.  It is a fantastic move as it makes the player rely more on body rotation rather than small hand movements.  Keeps the club face square for much longer.  It is an extremely popular technique that we are seeing more pros teach due to the better understandings of body kinematics and sequencing we have now.

Why not just have a strong grip to keep the clubface squarer to the club path? I suspect the pros need to assess each golfer in terms of their athletic ability before advocating this move because a pivot driven swing requires a lot of flexibility.

But my main doubt about this move is that 'palmar flexing'  (or bowing the wrist ), especially as the club moves from P6-P7,  opens the clubface relative to target line, and also angulates the clubshaft inwards away from the target line. Try it yourself , get into impact fix position, then just 'palmar flex' your wrist (without twisting it). The club shaft angulates 'back and in', the clubface opens to the ball target line. To square the clubface without too much shaft lean by impact, you will have to rotate your forearms even more (than if you hadn't bowed it in the first instance).

The other doubt is his use of something called 'Twistaway'  because that is what his 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' is all about . As well as palmar flexing (bowing) the lead wrist he is also advocating a 'twisting ' move which involves clenching/torquing the fingers around the grip.  Now that DOES close the clubface relative to the target line and club path if you can keep your fingers partially clenched/torqued all the way to impact (ie. just using your pivot). But the force on your hands when you swing a driver can be about 100 lbs force nearing impact and its impossible to keep your fingers clenched/torqued (unless you are amazingly strong).  So any 'Twistaway' effect (ie. what really closes the clubface relative to club path) dissipates as the pull forces from the 'shaft tension' on your hands increase in the late downswing. However , if you've retained your bowed wrist into impact all that's going to do is angulate the club 'back and in'  (as I said previously) and you are going to have to rotate your arms more to square the clubface (if you want to avoid a lot of forward shaft lean at impact). 

Hope this makes sense!!!

 

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I'd like to say, that I'm using this technique as a hook fighter, not an over the top stopper. I have a terrible tendency to get stuck in the hips, flip my hands across the golf ball, and hook it off the planet. I'm using the to keep the club face open, and force my arms/body to keep rotating. Coupling this along with focusing on driving through the golf ball, not at the golf ball has really helped my hooks. 

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2 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Why not just have a strong grip to keep the clubface squarer to the club path? I suspect the pros need to assess each golfer in terms of their athletic ability before advocating this move because a pivot driven swing requires a lot of flexibility.

But my main doubt about this move is that 'palmar flexing'  (or bowing the wrist ), especially as the club moves from P6-P7,  opens the clubface relative to target line, and also angulates the clubshaft inwards away from the target line. Try it yourself , get into impact fix position, then just 'palmar flex' your wrist (without twisting it). The club shaft angulates 'back and in', the clubface opens to the ball target line. To square the clubface without too much shaft lean by impact, you will have to rotate your forearms even more (than if you hadn't bowed it in the first instance).

The other doubt is his use of something called 'Twistaway'  because that is what his 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' is all about . As well as palmar flexing (bowing) the lead wrist he is also advocating a 'twisting ' move which involves clenching/torquing the fingers around the grip.  Now that DOES close the clubface relative to the target line and club path if you can keep your fingers partially clenched/torqued all the way to impact (ie. just using your pivot). But the force on your hands when you swing a driver can be about 100 lbs force nearing impact and its impossible to keep your fingers clenched/torqued (unless you are amazingly strong).  So any 'Twistaway' effect (ie. what really closes the clubface relative to club path) dissipates as the pull forces from the 'shaft tension' on your hands increase in the late downswing. However , if you've retained your bowed wrist into impact all that's going to do is angulate the club 'back and in'  (as I said previously) and you are going to have to rotate your arms more to square the clubface (if you want to avoid a lot of forward shaft lean at impact). 

Hope this makes sense!!!

 

It doesn’t rotate or require to rotate the arms. At parallel point 6 the face isn’t opened, it’s either neutral or closed.  

Every top level player does this move to some extent. The thought process is shared by many instructors and thought in different ways.

You are obviously set in your thought process about the move and I doubt anyone here will change your mind and I’m guessing the approach to defending your position is what got you banned on wrx and not the bias towards Ferrell 

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13 hours ago, GB13 said:

Yeah, it's something I need to work on some. IMO, this is another of example of instruction that works for a select group of people. Not everyone needs to do this. If you look at the Tour, I can think of 2 people that do this, DJ, and Daniel Berger. It works great for them while all of the other Tour players do fine without it. There is no instruction that works for everyone, and this is no exception. 

This is a big argument AGAINST using Youtube videos for instruction.  Most of us have very little basis for diagnosing our own swing issues, even less basis for determining the root cause of those issues.  If the diagnosis is wrong, searching the internet for a cure for an issue you don't actually have can't be productive.  This doesn't mean that any of the instruction is wrong in general, just that a big portion of it is "wrong for you".

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I don't know diddly about that technique, but I have ridden a motorcycle 😀

And yeah .. posters here on MGS *DO* try to be respectful of others' opinions. (But take note we are wary of thinly-veiled sales pitches that have embedded referral links.....)

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9 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It doesn’t rotate or require to rotate the arms. At parallel point 6 the face isn’t opened, it’s either neutral or closed.  

Every top level player does this move to some extent. The thought process is shared by many instructors and thought in different ways.

You are obviously set in your thought process about the move and I doubt anyone here will change your mind and I’m guessing the approach to defending your position is what got you banned on wrx and not the bias towards Ferrell 

If you look at Phil Cheethams 3D graphs on 94  pga pros you will find all of them rotate their arms. I can post a 3D graph of Jon Rahm proving he rotates his lead forearm more at impact than it was at address.  He is a prime example of a golfer that bows his wrist at the top of his backswing and retains some of that bow into impact.  If he was using the 'RMM'  move , then surely the 3D graph would show less forearm rotation than at address.

Why is it a sin to defend an opinion based on facts/evidence? Is that a good reason to ban someone from a golf forum? I'm willing to listen and alter my point of view if anyone can provide proof that this 'Reverse Motorcycle Move'  does limit rotation  of the forearms.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

If you look at Phil Cheethams 3D graphs on 94  pga pros you will find all of them rotate their arms. I can post a 3D graph of Jon Rahm proving he rotates his lead forearm more at impact than it was at address.  He is a prime example of a golfer that bows his wrist at the top of his backswing and retains some of that bow into impact.  If he was using the 'RMM'  move , then surely the 3D graph would show less forearm rotation than at address.

Why is it a sin to defend an opinion based on facts/evidence? Is that a good reason to ban someone from a golf forum? I'm willing to listen and alter my point of view if anyone can provide proof that this 'Reverse Motorcycle Move'  does limit rotation  of the forearms.

 

 

I don’t think anyone is saying that the move limits forearm rotation or that some extent of foearm rotation is bad. Both are needed and for some reason a rmm that elite players do is getting a bad rap.

defending a position is no reason to be banned however the constant harping on a position and the desire for some to want to prove they are right and continue down that path would be. I don’t know your situation over there or what was said in either side but my guess is your passion for your point of view and sticking to it despite what others may have said might be the cause.

wrx has somevery smart teaching pros on the site and some pretty good guys with understanding of the swing.

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10 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I don’t think anyone is saying that the move limits forearm rotation or that some extent of foearm rotation is bad. Both are needed and for some reason a rmm that elite players do is getting a bad rap.

defending a position is no reason to be banned however the constant harping on a position and the desire for some to want to prove they are right and continue down that path would be. I don’t know your situation over there or what was said in either side but my guess is your passion for your point of view and sticking to it despite what others may have said might be the cause.

wrx has somevery smart teaching pros on the site and some pretty good guys with understanding of the swing.

I agree that wrx may have some good 'teachers' but imho  they show weaknesses in explaining the biomechanics of the golf swing. There is an 'art' to teaching using external focus cues  but they should be careful about trying to explain cause and effect of the golf swing (especially if they are not qualified in human anatomy or physics).

For example , I do not use complex mechanics  to try and improve my golf swing (ie. to mimic what the pros might do) . From what I've learned already, It would take many years to try and replicate the mechanics used by PGA pros without any guarantees that it wouldn't break down as your body ages.  The accuracy, precision and timing required to meet  theoretical optimal mechanics is incredibly difficult to achieve and retain.

I would suggest that recreational golfers that do not have the time/money to ingrain any 'theoretical' optimal swing mechanics consider using external focus cues  to assist their game (hear this wonderful podcast from Dr Gabriele Wulf below). 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Wildthing said:

I agree that wrx may have some good 'teachers' but imho  they show weaknesses in explaining the biomechanics of the golf swing. There is an 'art' to teaching using external focus cues  but they should be careful about trying to explain cause and effect of the golf swing (especially if they are not qualified in human anatomy or physics).

For example , I do not use complex mechanics  to try and improve my golf swing (ie. to mimic what the pros might do) . From what I've learned already, It would take many years to try and replicate the mechanics used by PGA pros without any guarantees that it wouldn't break down as your body ages.  The accuracy, precision and timing required to meet  theoretical optimal mechanics is incredibly difficult to achieve and retain.

I would suggest that recreational golfers that do not have the time/money to ingrain any 'theoretical' optimal swing mechanics consider using external focus cues  to assist their game (hear this wonderful podcast from Dr Gabriele Wulf below). 

 

 

 

I don’t think most amateurs can mimic what a pro does but they can mimic/learn the same fundamentals. Good takeaway and pressure transfer, proper sequence and transition and good wrist angles. 

Each person learns different and they should find the teacher, method, etc that works for them

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This is the post that got me banned from golfwrx. It was the email I received from Jon Sinclair Director Of TPI .

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have asked a TPI 3D expert for his opinion and highlighted some important sentences.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The wrist are very complexed. You have to look at both to really determine how the club is being manipulated. 

First of all a position in and of itself neither opens or closes the club face. So these players having flexed lead wrist does not mean they have closed the club. The grip has a lot to do with what is happening as well.

As a very general rule a player with a lot of flexion in their wrist at the top will actually start closing the club face later than one with a lot of extension. I am talking about world class players here. After club transition flexed players will tend to move toward extension a bit before going hard back to flexion. 

I cannot think of a player off the top of my head that does not have less supination at impact than when they started. This is a tricky measurement though. AMM does not do the shoulder girdles so that can alter it some.

Moving toward flexion closes the club face at the top but then acts and opens it at impact. Pronation/Supination takes the in and out of plane until you get more ulnar deviation then lead supination/ trail pronation closes it.

I would need to do a complete study but I would doubt highly that there is less or more forearm movement in a flexed wrist over a extended one. If you are talking about higher or  lower ROC I would also say that is a myth. It is what people want to believe. It fits nicely with a narrative.

 

 

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I'm not sure I understand an argument about more or less forearm rotation at impact vs address. I'm not in remotely the same position at impact as I was at address. You can strap whatever you want on me (nope, I take that back) to show me a 3d figure of whatever, but i know that when i concentrated on taking the cup out if my left wrist at the top, i was able to produce a consistent draw and enjoyed the best ball striking if my life. So that sounds like help closing a club face to me. Whether it was or not is of no consequence, it worked.

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Yeah, it's something I need to work on some. IMO, this is another of example of instruction that works for a select group of people. Not everyone needs to do this. If you look at the Tour, I can think of 2 people that do this, DJ, and Daniel Berger. It works great for them while all of the other Tour players do fine without it. There is no instruction that works for everyone, and this is no exception. 

It seems to me that all the pros do this to some extent, the more exaggerated that come to my mind are DJ, Books K, but I do know that Rory and Tiger do this, just not as much as DJ. I’ve actually tried it on the range lately and might actually adopt it into my course game. Also, just a point to make with this...most of those guys I mentioned hit a power fade with this move. If you read Tiger’s book How I Play Golf, he discusses the label of the glove pointing to the sky at the top of the backswing...same move as discussed in this thread.


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On 2/28/2019 at 7:43 AM, Wildthing said:

I agree that wrx may have some good 'teachers' but imho  they show weaknesses in explaining the biomechanics of the golf swing. There is an 'art' to teaching using external focus cues  but they should be careful about trying to explain cause and effect of the golf swing (especially if they are not qualified in human anatomy or physics).

For example , I do not use complex mechanics  to try and improve my golf swing (ie. to mimic what the pros might do) . From what I've learned already, It would take many years to try and replicate the mechanics used by PGA pros without any guarantees that it wouldn't break down as your body ages.  The accuracy, precision and timing required to meet  theoretical optimal mechanics is incredibly difficult to achieve and retain.

I guess I'm confused.  You say you don't use complex mechanics, but rather some externally focused approach, yet you're arguing about complex mechanics.  Why?  

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On 3/2/2019 at 3:31 PM, DaveP043 said:

I guess I'm confused.  You say you don't use complex mechanics, but rather some externally focused approach, yet you're arguing about complex mechanics.  Why?  

Learning/debating golf biomechanics is a hobby of mine from an academic standpoint only. 

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  • 1 year later...

... can’t comment on why you got banned but the “motorcycle move is taught/supported by many golf instructors, among them Monte Scheinblum (who I consider one of the best/most insightful coaches).  
And the concept works brilliantly if done done correctly. 
So I completely disagree with your opinion. Cheers. 

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