Dustin Johnson - GOAT (read carefully)

[TR1PTIK]

23 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Can you elaborate on the difference between talent and skill?

The only thing that matters on the course is who put the little ball in the hole the fastest at the end of tournament play to get the win and the guys with the highest win totals and majors get to be debated about who is the greatest. 

My take and one shared by others (Adam Young author of The Practice Manual for instance) is that natural talent is the innate ability one is born with. We aren't all created equal in regard to muscle mass/development, flexibility, mobility, etc., etc.. Skill is something that's developed over time by taking our natural ability and focusing it on a particular task such as throwing a ball, dribbling, or swinging a golf club. So when I say DJ  has immense natural talent, it does not mean that he is equally skilled compared to someone like Rory or Tiger. Those two individuals (along with many others) have focused years of practice into developing their skills with a golf club. I don't believe the same can be said for DJ and yet he is currently #1 in the world. Why? Because of his natural innate ability (primarily).

@perseveringgolfer listed Seve as someone who was arguably more talented than DJ. IDK, I never got to see Seve play and have rarely seen or looked up any footage of him to weigh in much. I would say that he was definitely more of an artist than DJ is and that he did have great talent. He thought of (and executed) shots no one else would have imagined - he was creative. Does that mean his athleticism was equal to or greater than DJ's currently is? I just don't know to be honest. The statement about DJ being the greatest to ever place his hand on a golf club was a direct quote from the podcast, so I'd recommend having a listen to the full conversation and see what you think.

[M. Parsons]

6 hours ago, Slap said:

Great points about DJ but... blowing the 2018 US Open should end all discussions about him being the GOAT. And many other tournaments he’s blown with a putter.


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I couldn't agree more! Kind of reminds me of Sergio and his non-putting abilities. Although DJ is getting better with the flat-stick.

Also, @blackngold_blood Cameron Champ is exactly who I was thinking of just before I read your post. He has a lot of potential that needs to be harnessed, and then everyone will have to watch out. That's exactly what everyone was saying about DJ when he first got out on tour. But then again, what ever happened to Anthony Kim?

[TR1PTIK]

7 minutes ago, M. Parsons said:

I couldn't agree more! Kind of reminds me of Sergio and his non-putting abilities. Although DJ is getting better with the flat-stick.

Also, @blackngold_blood Cameron Champ is exactly who I was thinking of just before I read your post. He has a lot of potential that needs to be harnessed, and then everyone will have to watch out. That's exactly what everyone was saying about DJ when he first got out on tour. But then again, what ever happened to Anthony Kim?

I'll be interested to see how Cameron Champ progresses as well. I think he has a high ceiling also, but it's obvious when he's in a field with the best of the best that he is lacking a bit more in skill. He's super fun to watch though. I have to pick my jaw up off the floor every time I see a shot tracer on him.

[00sportsman]

5 hours ago, PMookie said:

This thread makes me think of what an old football coach used to say. “The definition of potential is: ain’t done crap yet!”
 

Football coaches still say this.  

No doubt he's gifted, but until you're the GOAT, you're not the GOAT - potential or otherwise.

[perseveringgolfer]

1 hour ago, TR1PTIK said:

My take and one shared by others (Adam Young author of The Practice Manual for instance) is that natural talent is the innate ability one is born with. We aren't all created equal in regard to muscle mass/development, flexibility, mobility, etc., etc.. Skill is something that's developed over time by taking our natural ability and focusing it on a particular task such as throwing a ball, dribbling, or swinging a golf club. So when I say DJ  has immense natural talent, it does not mean that he is equally skilled compared to someone like Rory or Tiger. Those two individuals (along with many others) have focused years of practice into developing their skills with a golf club. I don't believe the same can be said for DJ and yet he is currently #1 in the world. Why? Because of his natural innate ability (primarily).

@perseveringgolfer listed Seve as someone who was arguably more talented than DJ. IDK, I never got to see Seve play and have rarely seen or looked up any footage of him to weigh in much. I would say that he was definitely more of an artist than DJ is and that he did have great talent. He thought of (and executed) shots no one else would have imagined - he was creative. Does that mean his athleticism was equal to or greater than DJ's currently is? I just don't know to be honest. The statement about DJ being the greatest to ever place his hand on a golf club was a direct quote from the podcast, so I'd recommend having a listen to the full conversation and see what you think.

he's #3- Justin Rose is #1

#3 is still pretty good tho 

 

I saw Seve up close many times in the Open and others, his ball striking was just so much better than most, the sound the strikes made, the launch, distance etc all just looked majestic

[TR1PTIK]

8 minutes ago, perseveringgolfer said:

he's #3- Justin Rose is #1

#3 is still pretty good tho 

 

I saw Seve up close many times in the Open and others, his ball striking was just so much better than most, the sound the strikes made, the launch, distance etc all just looked majestic

I guess I misspoke a little when I said "currently"... https://www.golfchannel.com/news/dustin-johnson-poised-return-world-no-1-wgc-mexico-win

 

I know I can watch old Masters tournaments on YouTube so I'll have to see if I can find him on there as well as search for some other footage. The stories I've read about Seve are legendary.

[revkev]

This thread makes me think of what an old football coach used to say. “The definition of potential is: ain’t done crap yet!”

Now, DJ has won 20 times, which is more than a bunch of other “big name” guys put together, but I don’t go for “potential” in an argument about best ever. You either are, or you aren’t... No “ifs, ands or buts,” period. Dude is good, but he is who he IS. “If he were more like so-and-so,” or, “if only he did this,” problem is he isn’t, and he doesn’t. Let’s call a goat a goat for what they HAVE done, not what they could do...
Greatest ever, possibly? Not at this pace. He’s good... But he isn’t the greatest.

“If ifs and buts were presents and nuts, wed ALL have a good Christmas!”


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I’m with the football coach. Wake me up when DJ has won 4 majors and we can discuss if he’s cracked the top 20 all time.

I’m not seeing it sorry

Very good player, closing in on Hall of Fame probably there but please


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[GB13]

This thread is reminding me of Allen Iverson. We could reasonably say that he had as much talent as any BB player ever. He had so much potential but no real work ethic. AI was a great player with unmatched talent, no doubt, but he didn't do anything with it. We aren't putting AI in the same category as MJ, just as we shouldn't be putting DJ with Tiger, Jack, or Arnie. 

[Mr. 82]

(why do I get suckered into commenting on these sorts of threads?)

I saw a pre tournament interview with DJ at the Masters a few years ago, and I lost count of the number of times DJ said, "I don't know," to random questions.  Sure, the media can ask some stupid things, but DJ would just look back at them no matter what they asked and say, "I don't know."  My point is that I can do without anyone ever asking DJ to speak or do an interview ever again.  I think he's a perfect fit for Paulina, because between the two of them, I don't think they have two brain cells to rub together.  A list couple with no brains?  Sure, they aren't the first, and won't be the last.

I've got at least 2 other US Opens and a PGA Championship that should have DJ's name on the trophy of.  He probably should be winning at least 5 or 6 tournaments a year, but he doesn't for whatever reason.  We've gone months without talking about DJ, and then all of a sudden he shows up in Mexico and wins, and now he's all we want to talk about.  Well, I guess Kuchar and Mickelson are glad for that.

I think if you gave DJ, Jack Nicklaus' competitive fire and desire to win majors, and DJ would have won at least 7 or 8 majors by now.  If he had ANY semblance of drive or fire in his belly, he'd be as good as Lee Trevino was.

Beyond saying that DJ severely underachieves, mostly because I don't think he really cares if he wins or not, I think another player that underachieves greatly in this day and age is Brooks Koepka. Dude has won 3 majors in the last two years, but why doesn't he win any other tournaments?  Brooks is another one who I really think underachieves greatly.  It's like Brooks flips a switch at tough majors and the rest of the year sort of just says, "whatever."

I guess maybe that's the reason why Brooks and DJ are best buddies.  All foam and no beer.

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 minutes ago, GSwag said:

(why do I get suckered into commenting on these sorts of threads?)

I saw a pre tournament interview with DJ at the Masters a few years ago, and I lost count of the number of times DJ said, "I don't know," to random questions.  Sure, the media can ask some stupid things, but DJ would just look back at them no matter what they asked and say, "I don't know."  My point is that I can do without anyone ever asking DJ to speak or do an interview ever again.  I think he's a perfect fit for Paulina, because between the two of them, I don't think they have two brain cells to rub together.  A list couple with no brains?  Sure, they aren't the first, and won't be the last.

I've got at least 2 other US Opens and a PGA Championship that should have DJ's name on the trophy of.  He probably should be winning at least 5 or 6 tournaments a year, but he doesn't for whatever reason.  We've gone months without talking about DJ, and then all of a sudden he shows up in Mexico and wins, and now he's all we want to talk about.  Well, I guess Kuchar and Mickelson are glad for that.

I think if you gave DJ, Jack Nicklaus' competitive fire and desire to win majors, and DJ would have won at least 7 or 8 majors by now.  If he had ANY semblance of drive or fire in his belly, he'd be as good as Lee Trevino was.

Beyond saying that DJ severely underachieves, mostly because I don't think he really cares if he wins or not, I think another player that underachieves greatly in this day and age is Brooks Koepka. Dude has won 3 majors in the last two years, but why doesn't he win any other tournaments?  Brooks is another one who I really think underachieves greatly.  It's like Brooks flips a switch at tough majors and the rest of the year sort of just says, "whatever."

I guess maybe that's the reason why Brooks and DJ are best buddies.  All foam and no beer.

 

The funny thing about your perception of dj is the opposite of what people around him say. He’s very knowledgeable about his game and the swing. It has been rumored he’s stepsof ahead of his financial people and other members of his team on various subjects during their meetings.

watch some videos of him with me and mygolf 

[GB13]

6 minutes ago, GSwag said:

(why do I get suckered into commenting on these sorts of threads?)

I saw a pre tournament interview with DJ at the Masters a few years ago, and I lost count of the number of times DJ said, "I don't know," to random questions.  Sure, the media can ask some stupid things, but DJ would just look back at them no matter what they asked and say, "I don't know."  My point is that I can do without anyone ever asking DJ to speak or do an interview ever again.  I think he's a perfect fit for Paulina, because between the two of them, I don't think they have two brain cells to rub together.  A list couple with no brains?  Sure, they aren't the first, and won't be the last.

I've got at least 2 other US Opens and a PGA Championship that should have DJ's name on the trophy of.  He probably should be winning at least 5 or 6 tournaments a year, but he doesn't for whatever reason.  We've gone months without talking about DJ, and then all of a sudden he shows up in Mexico and wins, and now he's all we want to talk about.  Well, I guess Kuchar and Mickelson are glad for that.

I think if you gave DJ, Jack Nicklaus' competitive fire and desire to win majors, and DJ would have won at least 7 or 8 majors by now.  If he had ANY semblance of drive or fire in his belly, he'd be as good as Lee Trevino was.

Beyond saying that DJ severely underachieves, mostly because I don't think he really cares if he wins or not, I think another player that underachieves greatly in this day and age is Brooks Koepka. Dude has won 3 majors in the last two years, but why doesn't he win any other tournaments?  Brooks is another one who I really think underachieves greatly.  It's like Brooks flips a switch at tough majors and the rest of the year sort of just says, "whatever."

I guess maybe that's the reason why Brooks and DJ are best buddies.  All foam and no beer.

 

I agree with this. I don't think DJ is particularly smart however, I wouldn't give the media the light of day either. Without getting political here, I might just say I don't know to every question the media asks, since everything you say gets twisted around into you saying something racist or bigoted when you definitely didn't mean it that way. 

[TR1PTIK]

10 hours ago, GB13 said:

This thread is reminding me of Allen Iverson. We could reasonably say that he had as much talent as any BB player ever. He had so much potential but no real work ethic. AI was a great player with unmatched talent, no doubt, but he didn't do anything with it. We aren't putting AI in the same category as MJ, just as we shouldn't be putting DJ with Tiger, Jack, or Arnie. 

Ah, but I never said he was the greatest golfer of all time did I? Certainly not in a traditional sense. I'm not putting him in the same league as Tiger, Jack, or Arnie. You are. I've merely stated that I agree with the premise he may be the greatest natural talent in golf - as first proposed by the guys on the No Laying Up Podcast (Episode 195 if you actually care to listen). There is a difference. In order to be the GOAT, you have to be the GOAT at something. With no other frame of reference, if I said MJ is the GOAT, you'd say "at what?". The topic of discussion is and has been whether or not DJ is the greatest natural talent to ever swing a golf club. It has little to do with career achievements and I've stated that in multiple posts now. 

For those who have commented about DJ being dumb or otherwise unintelligent, I encourage you to read the article linked in the original post which was also shared again by @GolfSpy MPR. It's really quite insightful.

[MaxEntropy]

10 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The funny thing about your perception of dj is the opposite of what people around him say. He’s very knowledgeable about his game and the swing. It has been rumored he’s stepsof ahead of his financial people and other members of his team on various subjects during their meetings.

watch some videos of him with me and mygolf 

I think many people, as the article in the OP alludes to, mistake the ability to produce some good word salad in interviews as a sign of intelligence.

[TR1PTIK]

11 hours ago, GSwag said:

Beyond saying that DJ severely underachieves, mostly because I don't think he really cares if he wins or not, I think another player that underachieves greatly in this day and age is Brooks Koepka. Dude has won 3 majors in the last two years, but why doesn't he win any other tournaments?  Brooks is another one who I really think underachieves greatly.  It's like Brooks flips a switch at tough majors and the rest of the year sort of just says, "whatever."

I guess maybe that's the reason why Brooks and DJ are best buddies.  All foam and no beer.

 

Taking this a little off topic, but oh well. Aren't majors all we're supposed to care about as golfers??? I'm confused... If Tiger could trade his 80 wins for 19 majors, would you be making the same argument about him?

[revkev]

21 hours ago, TR1PTIK said:

No disputes here. The main point of the post and the podcast conversation that motivated it is that DJ may very well be the greatest natural talent "to ever touch a golf club" (NLU). Keep in mind though, that I'm only talking raw natural talent and not skill which is something entirely different. When it comes to skilled players, there's a list of golfers (probably equal in length to those with greater career achievements) that match or surpass Johnson's current overall ability. Truth be told, he's past the point of even being able to contend for GOAT in terms of career accomplishments, but I think it is possible for him to become the greatest golfer since Tiger Woods' reign and could very well end with a list of achievements not unlike Phil Mickelson.

Why is Dustin Johnson the greatest raw talent?  Because he's physically large?  Perhaps he's athletically gifted?  I don't buy it - his numbers don't approach that of the top, top tier players nor will they (he's too old at this point.)  Eventually you are what you are - he is exactly what he is - he's had plenty of time to demonstrate what his potential is.  It's quite good - it's not Jack or Tiger or Gary Player or Gene Sarazen (much smaller and less imposing people). 

 

When I was young we went through this with Tom Weiskopf - he could suddenly look like Adonis on the golf course knocking it miles past everyone including Jack.  I didn't bother to look up his career I know he won a major to two and several tournaments.  I heard all about how he had the greatest swing and potential - now he's known as a golf architect.

 

Future generations are not going to be concerned about Dustin Johnson's potential nor will his name be mentioned among the greatest players of all time.

 

[TR1PTIK]

On 2/27/2019 at 7:40 AM, blackngold_blood said:

As someone who isn't a fan of DJ's (I respect him and what he can do but don't turn on the TV to watch him like I would Tiger and others), I have no problem agreeing with the statement that he could be. I think if he wanted to be the goat and worked at it, the raw talent is there.

Another one that comes to mind is Cameron Champ.

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I think this is possibly my favorite post of the discussion so far. Not only do you get the intent of the original post, but you also offer up a possible contender for the title.  

[perseveringgolfer]

3 hours ago, TR1PTIK said:

I think this is possibly my favorite post of the discussion so far. Not only do you get the intent of the original post, but you also offer up a possible contender for the title.  

I'd like to offer up myself as a possible option. 

"I coulda been a contender, I coulda been somebody"

[fixyurdivot]

20 hours ago, Reesedw said:

Greatest of all time potential, maybe. DJ is a great player.

Not even close to greatest all time.

By age 34 which he is... He has 20 PGA wins,  7 European wins, 6 WGC championship, a 1 major. Putting him in rare territory.. 

But in Legend territory and to be considered the G.O.A.T. He needs numbers like these.. 

Tiger by 34 had 65 PGA wins, 36 European wins, 15 wgc championships, and 14 majors and completing the grand slam twice .. 

Jack had 52 PGA wins, 12 majors and completing the grand slam twice. 

I have no doubt the articles author used GOAT as catalyst.  That term in anything sports related generates passionate discussions and opinions.  (Jack had 18 major wins).

[Reesedw]

Yes at the End of his long storied career. Not at the age of 34 which is what I was comparing since that is how old DJ is now.. 

[GolfSpy MPR]

Submitted as evidence:

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

20 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Submitted as evidence:

 

There’s many a pro golfer who have a good swing from the other side of the ball. Iirc they tend to have competitions at the players during practice round hiring from the other side. 

[revkev]

Here’s a blind resume

 

19 PGA tour wins

28 Euro tour wins

4 majors

 

And this guy is not thought of when all time greats come up.

 

Mr talented has a long, long way to go to catch that.

 

 

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[robertson153]

Here’s a blind resume
 
19 PGA tour wins
28 Euro tour wins
4 majors
 
And this guy is not thought of when all time greats come up.
 
Mr talented has a long, long way to go to catch that.
 
 
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Ernie??


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[Smellis745]

I like DJ, but wouldn’t call him a GOAT at all.  I think he may has/had the potential to be in that convo and he still has, hopefully, many more years to go to get in the top tier of all timers.  But at this point, even with all he’s accomplished, he’s underachieved and never capitalized on his talent.  I think a lot of it for him though was finding early success and not being mature enough to handle it.  He seems to have settled down in the past few years and his game shows it.