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DQ at Honda for Green Reading Material


cnosil

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm pretty sure Arnie and Jack didn't have access to these.  If they did, they'd have learned to use them.  If I remember right, Jack was one of the first to use a yardage book of any kind.  I think the green maps are a pretty recent development.  I believe its been fueled by some of the computer simulations that can actually compute the path of a ball, if it has enough data.  It is this same type of modelling that started the development of the Aimpoint system.  Its also fueled by very sophisticated surveying and mapping techniques that are fairly recent, its really time consuming to map the greens with traditional methods.

So, they were allowed even though they seem to violate the "spirit of the game" that the USGA and R&A have been trying to preserve?

I wonder how many more tournaments Jack would have won if he had access to today's technology.  How many of those 2nd place finishes in majors would have been W's?

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2 hours ago, Kenny B said:

So, they were allowed even though they seem to violate the "spirit of the game" that the USGA and R&A have been trying to preserve?

I wonder how many more tournaments Jack would have won if he had access to today's technology.  How many of those 2nd place finishes in majors would have been W's?

My best guess, Jack and Arnie used every legal means at their disposal to shoot the lowest scores they could.  If they thought a green slope book could help, they would use it.  They might have lobbied to eliminate it, but they wouldn't turn down the assistance if it was within the rules.   As I said before, my memory is that Jack was one of the first to use a yardage book, and paced-off distances.  I don't know, but its possible that he was thought to be doing something outside of the "spirit of the game", it certainly was a new development.

To me, modern technology has allowed players of lesser talent play better.  Balls that spin less and go straighter, clubs with larger sweet spots to help off-center strikes.  I think that technology would have helped Jack's competitors more than it would have helped him.  Maybe he would have had fewer wins, not more.  But who knows, really?

 

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I posted early with my initial reaction. More I thought about it I think the book is a crutch. I have one for my home club and well it is useless. I would think as a low handicap and as a CPA/MBA I could figure it out and well it is no better than my eye at reading greens. The damn thing is stashed somewhere at my house and little use to me.


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On 3/1/2019 at 7:34 AM, gaussman1 said:

Counter idea but same pace of play concept, let them use lasers, skycaddies, whatever. It has already happened at all state levels and USGA qualifiers to speed up play. As fascinating as it is to watch BD triangulate numbers I'd rather watch golf shots.

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10 hours ago, Jmikecpa said:

I posted early with my initial reaction. More I thought about it I think the book is a crutch. I have one for my home club and well it is useless. I would think as a low handicap and as a CPA/MBA I could figure it out and well it is no better than my eye at reading greens. The damn thing is stashed somewhere at my house and little use to me.

I agree, I don't think the books have done a thing to lower scores.  In fact, Mr. Straka said just that:

Quote

“Putting stats haven’t changed in 25 years,” Stracka told Golfweek via phone on Tuesday. “PGA Tour pros are still making about 50 percent of their putts from inside of 8 feet. … There is no exactness in putting.”

And as for slow-play concerns on tour, I'd prefer to see the current convoluted policy simplified and strengthened, and then enforced.  I don't care what resource they use as long as they play within a reasonable time.  And if a player can't play well AND play reasonably quickly, get off the tour.  Someone who WILL be able to do both will step right in.  

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On 3/1/2019 at 10:59 AM, palvord said:

I appreciate that this DQ happened as it is the penalty for not following the rule.

I am curious if the enforcement of the rule is selective. Would Justin Thomas have been DQ’d if he was using the incorrect sized greens book? Is the tour just seizing on the opportunity to penalize a relatively non-mainstream player to set an example?


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You probably know the answer to this.  I think it's human nature to consider how the backlash of a ruling like this is going to affect you, and despite the best intentions it'll creep into the decision.

I always try to remember that I'm not good enough to get mad!

 

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Alex! Take a page from Back to the Future 2 and use a fake cover for your book...problem solved

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you would think that if you have an older book, and the rules changed regarding green reading books, you would ask the officials before you start play if the book was okay. Most of the rules violations have been the fault of the players. The rules that are bing broken are not so difficult that you aren’t sure. Dropping the ball is pretty simple, drop it from your knee height. Simple. Caddie cannot stand behind the player while he is taking his stance, simple. The rules are new, and some players are fighting them which makes no sense, they aren’t difficult to follow. We get new rules at work all the time, either follow them or get penalized. It’s the same thing. 

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2 hours ago, Kor.A.Door said:

you would think that if you have an older book, and the rules changed regarding green reading books, you would ask the officials before you start play if the book was okay. Most of the rules violations have been the fault of the players. The rules that are bing broken are not so difficult that you aren’t sure. Dropping the ball is pretty simple, drop it from your knee height. Simple. Caddie cannot stand behind the player while he is taking his stance, simple. The rules are new, and some players are fighting them which makes no sense, they aren’t difficult to follow. We get new rules at work all the time, either follow them or get penalized. It’s the same thing. 

But the caddie can stand behind the player while taking his stance as long as the player then steps away and resets his stance 

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10 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But the caddie can stand behind the player while taking his stance as long as the player then steps away and resets his stance 

That is true. I question the reason to even be directly behind the player at any time under the new rule, why does the caddie need to be directly behind the player. The only reason to be in that spot at any time is to help the player line up. There are many other places for a caddie to stand instead of being directly behind the player. The pros are fighting these rule changes because they don’t want change. 

Make a change to a routine in your own home if you have children, some will go with it, others will struggle with the changes. I think you have pros that struggle with change, not because it’s not a good change, it’s because they struggle with change of any kind. Eventually these changes will become normal, and they will have no problem, they are struggling with change. 

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1 hour ago, Kor.A.Door said:

That is true. I question the reason to even be directly behind the player at any time under the new rule, why does the caddie need to be directly behind the player. The only reason to be in that spot at any time is to help the player line up. There are many other places for a caddie to stand instead of being directly behind the player. The pros are fighting these rule changes because they don’t want change. 

Make a change to a routine in your own home if you have children, some will go with it, others will struggle with the changes. I think you have pros that struggle with change, not because it’s not a good change, it’s because they struggle with change of any kind. Eventually these changes will become normal, and they will have no problem, they are struggling with change. 

Getting the vantage point from the players view, assisting with the target and aiding with the decision making are reasons for the caddie to be there. Nothing’s changed in that with the rule change.  The governing bodies wanted to remove the optics of what some didn’t like especially on the lpga tour of caddies aligning the player.  They can still do everything they used to but the player has to re-establish his/her stance. They get aligned pick something tonfivus on step away and then set back up using that point of reference.

i don’t think they are fighting the rules just the interpretation or implementation the tour has used towards the new rules.  Imo it’s the growing pains the tour didn’t plan for and the bigger names have been affected by the bad interpretation of in Fowler’s case a brain fart and this has given a perception of the players fighting. 

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Getting the vantage point from the players view, assisting with the target and aiding with the decision making are reasons for the caddie to be there. Nothing’s changed in that with the rule change.  The governing bodies wanted to remove the optics of what some didn’t like especially on the lpga tour of caddies aligning the player.  They can still do everything they used to but the player has to re-establish his/her stance. They get aligned pick something tonfivus on step away and then set back up using that point of reference.

i don’t think they are fighting the rules just the interpretation or implementation the tour has used towards the new rules.  Imo it’s the growing pains the tour didn’t plan for and the bigger names have been affected by the bad interpretation of in Fowler’s case a brain fart and this has given a perception of the players fighting. 

Fowler’s case of a brain fart is a different instance. There has been many twitter battles about the rules and the changes. You’re telling me that in order for the player and caddie to discuss a potential stroke of the ball he has to stand directly behind him? The only reason to be behind the player is for alignment, he can stand to the left, or right or in front of, and do the same thing except for aligning. It’s change that they are fighting, not the rules, they don’t want and don’t like change. 

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27 minutes ago, Kor.A.Door said:

Fowler’s case of a brain fart is a different instance. There has been many twitter battles about the rules and the changes. You’re telling me that in order for the player and caddie to discuss a potential stroke of the ball he has to stand directly behind him? The only reason to be behind the player is for alignment, he can stand to the left, or right or in front of, and do the same thing except for aligning. It’s change that they are fighting, not the rules, they don’t want and don’t like change. 

Not telling you that he/she needs that but it’s an option and a reasonable one.  Aligning a player isn’t against the rules it’s only a violation of the caddie does it while the player takes his stance. 

It’s as much in the players and caddies to know the rules and play by them as it is on the tour go make sure they enforce them properly.

also nothing wrong with players or caddies using social media to complain but in a way it makes them looked like spoiled brats

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5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

i don’t think they are fighting the rules just the interpretation or implementation the tour has used towards the new rules.  Imo it’s the growing pains the tour didn’t plan for and the bigger names have been affected by the bad interpretation of in Fowler’s case a brain fart and this has given a perception of the players fighting. 

There has really only been one difficulty with interpretation, and that was addressed pretty quickly with a clarification to the caddie alignment rule.  The rest of the problems have been clear violations of the rule.  If the players need to assign blame, I suggest that someone get them a mirror.

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7 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

There has really only been one difficulty with interpretation, and that was addressed pretty quickly with a clarification to the caddie alignment rule.  The rest of the problems have been clear violations of the rule.  If the players need to assign blame, I suggest that someone get them a mirror.

I would think that part of their job is to know the rules. These rules were in print for some time prior to going into effect. These guys had plenty of time to learn the new rules before Jan 1.

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

There has really only been one difficulty with interpretation, and that was addressed pretty quickly with a clarification to the caddie alignment rule.  The rest of the problems have been clear violations of the rule.  If the players need to assign blame, I suggest that someone get them a mirror.

Agree.

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On 3/3/2019 at 12:42 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Not telling you that he/she needs that but it’s an option and a reasonable one.  Aligning a player isn’t against the rules it’s only a violation of the caddie does it while the player takes his stance. 

It’s as much in the players and caddies to know the rules and play by them as it is on the tour go make sure they enforce them properly.

also nothing wrong with players or caddies using social media to complain but in a way it makes them looked like spoiled brats

Exactly, you can stand back there, you just have reset your stance in order to do that, it really was an easy call by the rule. I was just wondering why the caddie felt he needed to be right there. They were having a discussion on really whether or not to play the shot out of the bunker, or just play it forward into the bunker to avoid the chance of over shooting the green into the water. In the end the player made the decision to play the shot he wanted so the caddie said go for it and moved away, the only issue we that the player had already set his feet into the sand. Like you said, he just need to step out of that position and then step back in. I did read where he took the blame for it on himself instead of blaming the rules or his caddie, and that he will not have hat happen again. 

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I'm one that thinks the green reading books needed to be dialed back. IMO, green reading is a skill that should be tested on the golf course and not made significantly easier by topographical maps produced by a machine. However, I don't have an issue with a player keeping tabs on the breaks of a green by their own means. Yardage books, I am completely okay with though I - as others have stated - would like to see them allow range finders. It would speed things up significantly for the players and the viewers.

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1 hour ago, TR1PTIK said:

I'm one that thinks the green reading books needed to be dialed back. IMO, green reading is a skill that should be tested on the golf course and not made significantly easier by topographical maps produced by a machine. However, I don't have an issue with a player keeping tabs on the breaks of a green by their own means. Yardage books, I am completely okay with though I - as others have stated - would like to see them allow range finders. It would speed things up significantly for the players and the viewers.

What’s the difference if a player making something that keeps tabs on breaks and somebody else creating it and either giving or selling to the player?

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1 minute ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

What’s the difference if a player making something that keeps tabs on breaks and somebody else creating it and either giving or selling to the player?

I think its a difference based on human senses and observations versus high-tech laser surveying.  If it comes from the player, and from his own senses and observations, it seems OK to me.

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4 hours ago, TR1PTIK said:

I'm one that thinks the green reading books needed to be dialed back. IMO, green reading is a skill that should be tested on the golf course and not made significantly easier by topographical maps produced by a machine. However, I don't have an issue with a player keeping tabs on the breaks of a green by their own means. Yardage books, I am completely okay with though I - as others have stated - would like to see them allow range finders. It would speed things up significantly for the players and the viewers.

They did dial them back.  rules have been updated to limit green reading books.  Or are you talking more scaling back than the new rule and if so what specifically?   

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3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

What’s the difference if a player making something that keeps tabs on breaks and somebody else creating it and either giving or selling to the player?

As @DaveP043 said, it's the difference between using a precise measuring device and a player's personal ability to perceive contours in the green. Like I said, green reading is a skill. I'm okay with players keeping a record of notes from their own experiences, but they should not be handed a book with detailed information via mechanical devices and a topographical map.

A quick add: It might seem contradictory to complain about using technology on the greens while also being okay with rangefinders. However, the difference to me is quite simple - walking off a distance vs. measuring with a rangefinder makes little difference because walking and counting doesn't require much skill.

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15 minutes ago, cnosil said:

They did dial them back.  rules have been updated to limit green reading books.  Or are you talking more scaling back than the new rule and if so what specifically?   

Please read again. I said "needed to be dialed back" as in past tense. No further rollbacks needed so long as the player is responsible for reading the green.

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1 hour ago, TR1PTIK said:

Please read again. I said "needed to be dialed back" as in past tense. No further rollbacks needed so long as the player is responsible for reading the green.

They still had to read the green with the other books. They have had detailed books for a long time. They still have detailed books now so Kota whole lot has changed. 

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30 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

They still had to read the green with the other books. They have had detailed books for a long time. They still have detailed books now so Kota whole lot has changed. 

Again, I don’t have an issue with books that contain a player’s notes or details they came by on their own. The new restrictions placed on green reading materials is enough to render the types of maps I mentioned above ineffective. 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/usga-randa-ease-back-on-limits-to-green-reading-materials-in-final-rule-interpretation-set-to-go-in-effect-jan-1/amp

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On 3/1/2019 at 5:45 AM, ga_pike said:

Being told you have to leave because you took too much from the help yourself hot sauce bar at the Taco Palace does not count as a DQ.  

 

And yes i agree...  if they wanted to limit hot much you took, then they shouldn't have provided lids for those little cups!!

Thanks a bunch, I just passed some coffee through my nasal passages and splatted my keyboard 🤣.

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:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

:odyssey-small: AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test)

 

 

 

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