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DQ at Honda for Green Reading Material


cnosil
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I think the really bad part is that all this went down on the 14th hole, at least that's the way I read it. Maybe the PGA should think about setting up a TSA-like service where they search players bags before their round to weed out the illegal items. Hey guys I can't come to work today because I brought over 3 fl oz of coffee with me. 🙄

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1 hour ago, gaussman1 said:

Counter idea but same pace of play concept, let them use lasers, skycaddies, whatever. It has already happened at all state levels and USGA qualifiers to speed up play. As fascinating as it is to watch BD triangulate numbers I'd rather watch golf shots.

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1 hour ago, ga_pike said:

Unless you replace it with some technology (range finder) that keeps them from walking everything off, you won't speed up play by simply eliminating yardage books.  It's bad enough when a guy walks off a 68 yard shot from the pin back to his ball after he waits for everyone else to play...  watching that on everything from 225 in would be horrific.  

I am torn on this because I think from a traditional standpoint, the yardage books are a big part of the game.   Doing the math in your head to get the number, checking for wind, etc....   but I also feel like they really need to address slow play and IMO one of the biggest things they could do would be to allow range finders in tournament rounds.  

That's what I get for posting in a hurry while heading into a meeting!  I assumed legalizing rangefinders was understood if books were banned.  We're saying the same thing although, my original post left a little to be desired in that regard!

On a completely unrelated note, the meeting was an hour of my life I will never get back.  Such a waste!  My confidence in humanity is shattered at the moment!

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Alex! Take a page from Back to the Future 2 and use a fake cover for your book...problem solved [emoji41]

IMG_3524.JPG.0095de8755f813c23ef50e43d5ce3ca0.JPG

Unfortunately a player called him out when he saw what was behind the cover.
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1 hour ago, GolfSpy Stroker said:

....not sure these new rules are winning any friends.  Nothing against them and it is up to player/caddie to know them but whew...every week there is something about the golf rules.  

first time that I can ever remember that the rules have been such a prominently discussed topic.  
*yes, I realized they changed this year, but it has not been smooth- at all.

It seems to me that the Rules problems are primarily the fault of the players.  I find it hard to believe that the players aren't aware of the changes, but in some instances that seems to be the case. 

The caddie alignment stuff, I do blame the wording of the rules for the one penalty that was rescinded, but the first one was absolutely an infraction.  A capture from the video is nearly identical to the WRONG illustration in the rules.. 

Rickie's ball rolling into the water, that had nothing to do with the changes to the rules, it was just bad luck.

The backstopping controversy, again, how can someone who is active on social media NOT have heard of the backstopping issue in her sport?  In that case, the rules saved her, it used to be a DQ, and her intention had no influence on whether she had violated the rule.  Now she gets a pass because her stated intention was simply to play quickly.

Rickie's drop was a simply brain fart.  The rule is easy to understand, easy to comply with, whether you like it or not.

Now this one, was he completely oblivious to the change in the rules?   If he was aware, did he simply assume he was OK?  Did he check to make sure his book was in compliance?  Apparently he either didn't know of the change, knew but assumed the old book was still OK, or didn't think he'd be questioned.  Actually, congratulations to Tringale for doing the right thing.  At least one player is protecting the field this year.

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I appreciate that this DQ happened as it is the penalty for not following the rule.

I am curious if the enforcement of the rule is selective. Would Justin Thomas have been DQ’d if he was using the incorrect sized greens book? Is the tour just seizing on the opportunity to penalize a relatively non-mainstream player to set an example?


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56 minutes ago, palvord said:

I appreciate that this DQ happened as it is the penalty for not following the rule.

I am curious if the enforcement of the rule is selective. Would Justin Thomas have been DQ’d if he was using the incorrect sized greens book? Is the tour just seizing on the opportunity to penalize a relatively non-mainstream player to set an example?


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I wonder about this also, kinda like the jt caddy issue a few weeks back, almost bet the first slow play penalty will be against a fringe player and not a top 10 player.  At least the USGA managed to get more people talking about the rules than any year I can remember.  Pace of play is a whole other ball of worms, at pga level they need to fix it, like any other sport it trickles down to the amateur level, european tour haas the shot clock masters and personally I like that format.  my .02

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8 minutes ago, g-off said:

I wonder about this also, kinda like the jt caddy issue a few weeks back, almost bet the first slow play penalty will be against a fringe player and not a top 10 player.  At least the USGA managed to get more people talking about the rules than any year I can remember.  Pace of play is a whole other ball of worms, at pga level they need to fix it, like any other sport it trickles down to the amateur level, european tour haas the shot clock masters and personally I like that format.  my .02

I think its fair to wonder about preferential treatment, we just have no way of knowing who else is violating some of the rules.  Rickie certainly didn't get preferential treatment for his bad drop, though.  

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I don't remember seeing green reading books when watching Jack and Arnie playing, but maybe it was because they didn't get the full broadcast treatment that top players get today.

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2 hours ago, Kenny B said:

I don't remember seeing green reading books when watching Jack and Arnie playing, but maybe it was because they didn't get the full broadcast treatment that top players get today.

I'm pretty sure Arnie and Jack didn't have access to these.  If they did, they'd have learned to use them.  If I remember right, Jack was one of the first to use a yardage book of any kind.  I think the green maps are a pretty recent development.  I believe its been fueled by some of the computer simulations that can actually compute the path of a ball, if it has enough data.  It is this same type of modelling that started the development of the Aimpoint system.  Its also fueled by very sophisticated surveying and mapping techniques that are fairly recent, its really time consuming to map the greens with traditional methods.

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm pretty sure Arnie and Jack didn't have access to these.  If they did, they'd have learned to use them.  If I remember right, Jack was one of the first to use a yardage book of any kind.  I think the green maps are a pretty recent development.  I believe its been fueled by some of the computer simulations that can actually compute the path of a ball, if it has enough data.  It is this same type of modelling that started the development of the Aimpoint system.  Its also fueled by very sophisticated surveying and mapping techniques that are fairly recent, its really time consuming to map the greens with traditional methods.

So, they were allowed even though they seem to violate the "spirit of the game" that the USGA and R&A have been trying to preserve?

I wonder how many more tournaments Jack would have won if he had access to today's technology.  How many of those 2nd place finishes in majors would have been W's?

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2 hours ago, Kenny B said:

So, they were allowed even though they seem to violate the "spirit of the game" that the USGA and R&A have been trying to preserve?

I wonder how many more tournaments Jack would have won if he had access to today's technology.  How many of those 2nd place finishes in majors would have been W's?

My best guess, Jack and Arnie used every legal means at their disposal to shoot the lowest scores they could.  If they thought a green slope book could help, they would use it.  They might have lobbied to eliminate it, but they wouldn't turn down the assistance if it was within the rules.   As I said before, my memory is that Jack was one of the first to use a yardage book, and paced-off distances.  I don't know, but its possible that he was thought to be doing something outside of the "spirit of the game", it certainly was a new development.

To me, modern technology has allowed players of lesser talent play better.  Balls that spin less and go straighter, clubs with larger sweet spots to help off-center strikes.  I think that technology would have helped Jack's competitors more than it would have helped him.  Maybe he would have had fewer wins, not more.  But who knows, really?

 

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I posted early with my initial reaction. More I thought about it I think the book is a crutch. I have one for my home club and well it is useless. I would think as a low handicap and as a CPA/MBA I could figure it out and well it is no better than my eye at reading greens. The damn thing is stashed somewhere at my house and little use to me.


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On 3/1/2019 at 7:34 AM, gaussman1 said:

Counter idea but same pace of play concept, let them use lasers, skycaddies, whatever. It has already happened at all state levels and USGA qualifiers to speed up play. As fascinating as it is to watch BD triangulate numbers I'd rather watch golf shots.

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10 hours ago, Jmikecpa said:

I posted early with my initial reaction. More I thought about it I think the book is a crutch. I have one for my home club and well it is useless. I would think as a low handicap and as a CPA/MBA I could figure it out and well it is no better than my eye at reading greens. The damn thing is stashed somewhere at my house and little use to me.

I agree, I don't think the books have done a thing to lower scores.  In fact, Mr. Straka said just that:

Quote

“Putting stats haven’t changed in 25 years,” Stracka told Golfweek via phone on Tuesday. “PGA Tour pros are still making about 50 percent of their putts from inside of 8 feet. … There is no exactness in putting.”

And as for slow-play concerns on tour, I'd prefer to see the current convoluted policy simplified and strengthened, and then enforced.  I don't care what resource they use as long as they play within a reasonable time.  And if a player can't play well AND play reasonably quickly, get off the tour.  Someone who WILL be able to do both will step right in.  

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On 3/1/2019 at 10:59 AM, palvord said:

I appreciate that this DQ happened as it is the penalty for not following the rule.

I am curious if the enforcement of the rule is selective. Would Justin Thomas have been DQ’d if he was using the incorrect sized greens book? Is the tour just seizing on the opportunity to penalize a relatively non-mainstream player to set an example?


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You probably know the answer to this.  I think it's human nature to consider how the backlash of a ruling like this is going to affect you, and despite the best intentions it'll creep into the decision.

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Alex! Take a page from Back to the Future 2 and use a fake cover for your book...problem solved [emoji41]

IMG_3524.JPG.0095de8755f813c23ef50e43d5ce3ca0.JPG

Too funny!


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you would think that if you have an older book, and the rules changed regarding green reading books, you would ask the officials before you start play if the book was okay. Most of the rules violations have been the fault of the players. The rules that are bing broken are not so difficult that you aren’t sure. Dropping the ball is pretty simple, drop it from your knee height. Simple. Caddie cannot stand behind the player while he is taking his stance, simple. The rules are new, and some players are fighting them which makes no sense, they aren’t difficult to follow. We get new rules at work all the time, either follow them or get penalized. It’s the same thing. 

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2 hours ago, Kor.A.Door said:

you would think that if you have an older book, and the rules changed regarding green reading books, you would ask the officials before you start play if the book was okay. Most of the rules violations have been the fault of the players. The rules that are bing broken are not so difficult that you aren’t sure. Dropping the ball is pretty simple, drop it from your knee height. Simple. Caddie cannot stand behind the player while he is taking his stance, simple. The rules are new, and some players are fighting them which makes no sense, they aren’t difficult to follow. We get new rules at work all the time, either follow them or get penalized. It’s the same thing. 

But the caddie can stand behind the player while taking his stance as long as the player then steps away and resets his stance 

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