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TR1PTIK

Put on the clock at 18???

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Was reading through some of the golf articles linked on MSN and stumbled across this story (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/schwartzel-gets-angry-at-official-you-really-think-thats-fair/ar-BBUiuIq) which I thought was interesting.

Honestly, I gotta agree with Schwartzel on this. As much as I hate slow play and even though he was technically in violation of the rule (correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they have to tee off before the group in front leaves the green except on Par 3's or short Par 4's), this just seems like a dumb way for the tour to try and prop themselves up as actually enforcing pace of play. What do you guys think?

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I applaud the rules official for doing his job.  It doesn't matter where a bad time takes place on the course.  Schwartzel was notified his group was being timed on the 18th tee for conduct on #17.  They are still on the course so, by rule, in violation.  Not to mention, they were likely given warnings prior, as is Tour policy, I believe.

Schwartzel even stated in his press conference later, they finished 14 minutes behind the group in front of them.  The group in front of them were 16 minutes behind the group in front of them and that group was 14 minutes behind the group in front of them.  The PGA Tour sends pairings off in 9 minutes intervals.  It's a huge problem if every group is 5 to 7 minutes off the pace!

Just my opinion!

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17 minutes ago, sixcat said:

I applaud the rules official for doing his job.  It doesn't matter where a bad time takes place on the course.  Schwartzel was notified his group was being timed on the 18th tee for conduct on #17.  They are still on the course so, by rule, in violation.  Not to mention, they were likely given warnings prior, as is Tour policy, I believe.

Schwartzel even stated in his press conference later, they finished 14 minutes behind the group in front of them.  The group in front of them were 16 minutes behind the group in front of them and that group was 14 minutes behind the group in front of them.  The PGA Tour sends pairings off in 9 minutes intervals.  It's a huge problem if every group is 5 to 7 minutes off the pace!

Just my opinion!

I don't disagree wholeheartedly (rules are rules), but I do also see Schwartzel's point. They were perfectly in line with what the groups in front of them and the group behind wasn't even on the 17th tee. Unless the official placed the groups ahead on the clock as well, it seems like a curious decision to then decide to penalize this one group. I'm sure there are more details that could clear this up, but the article only goes so far to say that Schwartzel's group had trouble on 16 and 17. It doesn't specify how that impacted the group behind nor does it mention how much (if any) time was lost on the group ahead.

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As I have posted in other threads on this, my issue isn't whether or not Schwartzel was worthy of a pace of play warning, bad time, or whatever, but for his conduct towards the rules official.  Maybe it's just me, but when I was involved in organized athletics as a kid, if I mouthed off to an official, I was either thrown out of the game, or given a severe reprimand.  The rules official is in charge, and you must respect his authority, right or wrong.  If nothing else, I think Schwartzel deserves a huge fine, and a suspension from the Tour for his conduct towards the rules official.

Again, this has nothing to do with right or wrong with regards to the pace of play issue, but everything to do with Schwartzel's conduct on the course towards the official.  And in this case, Schwartzel is clearly in the wrong.

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20 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

I don't disagree wholeheartedly (rules are rules), but I do also see Schwartzel's point. They were perfectly in line with what the groups in front of them and the group behind wasn't even on the 17th tee. Unless the official placed the groups ahead on the clock as well, it seems like a curious decision to then decide to penalize this one group. I'm sure there are more details that could clear this up, but the article only goes so far to say that Schwartzel's group had trouble on 16 and 17. It doesn't specify how that impacted the group behind nor does it mention how much (if any) time was lost on the group ahead.

To be clear, nobody was "penalized."  Schwartel's group was notified that they were being timed.  

Schwartzel said the 16th and 17th holes played difficult, and his group fell behind the group in front of them, but they weren’t holding up the group behind them. “I said, 'Do you think that’s really fair?'” Schwartzel said. “He said, 'Yeah, you are behind.’ I said `No, we are not. We are not holding up anyone. The guys behind us aren’t even on the 17th tee. And the guys in front of us are finished.’ “I get it if we have nine holes to go, that maybe we are a hole behind, but the fact is the group in front of us finished 14 minutes behind the group in front of them. The group in front of them finished 16 minutes behind that group. So, we were exactly in slot for what was going down the last few holes.”

Schwartzel admits in his own words, his group fell behind.  And as I stated in the previous post, his group was 5 minutes off the pace of the group in front of them.  That group was 7 minutes off the pace of the group ahead of them. 

In my opinion, a better argument for Schwartzel would be, shouldn't more groups have been placed on the clock!  Not that it occurred on the "last few holes."

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50 minutes ago, sixcat said:

I applaud the rules official for doing his job.  It doesn't matter where a bad time takes place on the course.  Schwartzel was notified his group was being timed on the 18th tee for conduct on #17.  They are still on the course so, by rule, in violation.  Not to mention, they were likely given warnings prior, as is Tour policy, I believe.

Schwartzel even stated in his press conference later, they finished 14 minutes behind the group in front of them.  The group in front of them were 16 minutes behind the group in front of them and that group was 14 minutes behind the group in front of them.  The PGA Tour sends pairings off in 9 minutes intervals.  It's a huge problem if every group is 5 to 7 minutes off the pace!

Just my opinion!

As far as we know only scheartzels group was told on 18 they were being timed (no clarification if that was their first warning or if if was the result of previous warnings) if all the other groups were off pace.

i still think at 18 tee is idiotic to tell a group they are being especially if it’s not their fault they were off pace. If a range came to me on a course to tell me I’m off pace it’s going to be an interesting conversation to say it nicely.

17 minutes ago, GSwag said:

As I have posted in other threads on this, my issue isn't whether or not Schwartzel was worthy of a pace of play warning, bad time, or whatever, but for his conduct towards the rules official.  Maybe it's just me, but when I was involved in organized athletics as a kid, if I mouthed off to an official, I was either thrown out of the game, or given a severe reprimand.  The rules official is in charge, and you must respect his authority, right or wrong.  If nothing else, I think Schwartzel deserves a huge fine, and a suspension from the Tour for his conduct towards the rules official.

Again, this has nothing to do with right or wrong with regards to the pace of play issue, but everything to do with Schwartzel's conduct on the course towards the official.  And in this case, Schwartzel is clearly in the wrong.

No one knows what was said during or before the televised discussion or what the rules official told schwartzel during their conversation.

im prettty sure most on this forum including myself would have a similar reaction to an official saying something about pace on 18 tee or any questionable decision or statement by a ranger on the course or in a tourney.  Some have the reaction on here to discussions 

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7 minutes ago, sixcat said:

To be clear, nobody was "penalized."  Schwartel's group was notified that they were being timed.  

Yes, well aware they did not receive a penalty, but being put on the clock is nonetheless penalizing.

 

8 minutes ago, sixcat said:

In my opinion, a better argument for Schwartzel would be, shouldn't more groups have been placed on the clock!  Not that it occurred on the "last few holes."

I agree and I think that was kind of his point, though based on what's being reported he did not communicate that effectively.

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32 minutes ago, GSwag said:

As I have posted in other threads on this, my issue isn't whether or not Schwartzel was worthy of a pace of play warning, bad time, or whatever, but for his conduct towards the rules official.  Maybe it's just me, but when I was involved in organized athletics as a kid, if I mouthed off to an official, I was either thrown out of the game, or given a severe reprimand.  The rules official is in charge, and you must respect his authority, right or wrong.  If nothing else, I think Schwartzel deserves a huge fine, and a suspension from the Tour for his conduct towards the rules official.

Again, this has nothing to do with right or wrong with regards to the pace of play issue, but everything to do with Schwartzel's conduct on the course towards the official.  And in this case, Schwartzel is clearly in the wrong.

Maybe. I mean I see your point and certainly agree when it comes to pee wee and all the way up through collegiate level sports - kids need to learn some respect - but this is something we see routinely in nearly all professional sports. These guys have a lot riding on these tournaments and a stroke here or there can cost them considerable amounts of money. I'm curious, is this the same stance you take with players AND COACHES in other sports - the NFL or NBA for example?

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13 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

As far as we know only scheartzels group was told on 18 they were being timed (no clarification if that was their first warning or if if was the result of previous warnings) if all the other groups were off pace.

i still think at 18 tee is idiotic to tell a group they are being especially if it’s not their fault they were off pace. If a range came to me on a course to tell me I’m off pace it’s going to be an interesting conversation to say it nicely.

All the groups were off pace and I agree, they should have been warned as well.  We don't fully know if any other groups were.  If they weren't, Schwartzel's argument should be based around that.  Not that his group was being timed on #18, which is still a part of the golf course.  Agree to disagree on that aspect.

It's also an interesting anecdote, Schwartel was paired with Ben Crane during this incident!

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9 minutes ago, sixcat said:

All the groups were off pace and I agree, they should have been warned as well.  We don't fully know if any other groups were.  If they weren't, Schwartzel's argument should be based around that.  Not that his group was being timed on #18, which is still a part of the golf course.  Agree to disagree on that aspect.

It's also an interesting anecdote, Schwartel was paired with Ben Crane during this incident!

Yeah, I forgot about that for a second. That could have been some his motivation to argue as well. 

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30 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

I'm curious, is this the same stance you take with players AND COACHES in other sports - the NFL or NBA for example?

Can't speak for @GSwag, but yes. Technical fouls, ejections, etc. happen all the time in other sports when players/coaches cross the line from civil to uncivil. I'm also certain these can and have had an effect on the outcome of games. Schwartzle's body language in the still images look to me like he very much crossed the line, especially for a "gentleman's" game.

If you don't like being called out for being slow, don't be slow and do your part to help the group speed up, even if you are playing with Ben Crane, JB Holmes, or Patrick Cantlay.

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

As far as we know only scheartzels group was told on 18 they were being timed (no clarification if that was their first warning or if if was the result of previous warnings) if all the other groups were off pace.

i still think at 18 tee is idiotic to tell a group they are being especially if it’s not their fault they were off pace. If a range came to me on a course to tell me I’m off pace it’s going to be an interesting conversation to say it nicely.

Most times, a group being put on the clock doesn't make the news.  It happens fairly regularly, and other groups may have been put on the clock in this event.  Schwartzl MADE it news in his group with his reaction.  I'm posting a few excerpts from the 17-18 Players Policy on Pace of Play. Handbook https://qualifying.pgatourhq.com/static-assets/uploads/2017-18_pga_tour_handbookregs_final.pdf

I'm assuming that the same policy applies for this year.

Quote

When the Rules Committee determines that a group or an individual out of position will be timed, all players in the group, or the specific individual, will be informed they are being timed. Such timing could occur on any hole, including the finishing holes of a round, and as soon as the next hole after a warning has been given.

In my opinion, the officials should enforce the policy all the time, for every group, on every hole.  To do anything else is to invite charges of favoritism.  I believe the official did the right thing.  And if Ben Crane is put on the clock every time he plays, perhaps he'll get the message.

Quote

In the administration of these pace of play guidelines, a member of the Rules Committee shall not tolerate abuse, oral or otherwise, by a player. Such abuse may constitute conduct unbecoming a professional.

I don't know what the consequences of that might be, but he sure didn't look very professional in the moment.

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At times, it seems that officials treat pace of play like police officers can treat speeding at times.  Selective enforcement.  

As to Schwartzl's behavior, I can understand his frustration and outburst, although it is not the best look for him. I think if pace of play was consistently enforced, the reaction would have been more muted.

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2 hours ago, TR1PTIK said:

 I'm curious, is this the same stance you take with players AND COACHES in other sports - the NFL or NBA for example?

Absolutely.  Player and coaches conduct during games should always be respectful and courteous with officials, who are just doing their jobs.  In fact, refs often issue technical fouls in the NBA, and 15 yard penalties in the NFL for unsportsmanlike conduct.  And making physical contact with an NFL referee is an automatic ejection from the game, as well as a fine from the league for their conduct.

Beyond this, I think the problem with the Schwartzel situation is that the PGA Tour is not enforcing their own pace of play policies, which makes enforcement now next to impossible.  I've said it previously that the commissioner needs to issue a memorandum at any time, specifically telling players that the pace of play policies will be strictly enforced starting at whatever date the commissioner sees fit.  And then when the pace of play policy is breached, the first player is penalized, and then the 2nd, etc.  The lack of consistency from the PGA Tour in enforcing this rules is a root cause of what we see with Schwartzel.  But frankly, Schwartzel did not handle this situation in a professional manner, and even admitting you are behind the pace of play sort of makes any defense or argument you make defending yourself sort of deaf to my ears.  You were an ass on the course to a rules official.  Expect a fine and whatever other penalties the PGA Tour hands down.

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33 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Most times, a group being put on the clock doesn't make the news.  It happens fairly regularly, and other groups may have been put on the clock in this event.  Schwartzl MADE it news in his group with his reaction.  I'm posting a few excerpts from the 17-18 Players Policy on Pace of Play. Handbook https://qualifying.pgatourhq.com/static-assets/uploads/2017-18_pga_tour_handbookregs_final.pdf

I'm assuming that the same policy applies for this year.

In my opinion, the officials should enforce the policy all the time, for every group, on every hole.  To do anything else is to invite charges of favoritism.  I believe the official did the right thing.  And if Ben Crane is put on the clock every time he plays, perhaps he'll get the message.

I don't know what the consequences of that might be, but he sure didn't look very professional in the moment.

There’s a lot of assumptions both sides are makin as we don’t know all the the circumstances that took place prior to 18, if other groups were told same thing as schwartzel and if he asked about that to the official and was given an answer that seemed like only his group was the issue.

nothing wrong with criticizing players but the amount of scrutiny they get from forum members (not just this forum) sometimes is funny to read and how because one person gives the impression of losing his cool and not being gentleman like while the other person gets none when no one knows specifically what he said or how he said it imo is also somewhat laughable, 

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One thing I thought of with regards to this issue, is that apparently there are only 14 rules officials on the PGA Tour.  Why is this?  It seems to me that you should have 36 rules officials.  One for every teeing area, and one official on every green.  Each official has a tablet that has current times for all groups and pace of play of each.  If any group comes off a green and into a teeing area behind their expected pre-scheduled time, they are informed of such.  A note is added to the tablet that every rules official sees.  That group then has an expectation of reaching the green by an expected time, and if they are not there, well, you see where this is going.

I mean, for crying out loud, how hard can this be to moderate pace of play and enforce it?  You could have body cams on officials with a ticking clock, that is monitored from a central control room with 5 or 6 people keeping an eye on every group on every hole.  Heck, you could put the cameras on standard bearers or walking scorers.  I mean, it's not like the PGA Tour doesn't have the money for the technology or to hire the extra personnel to make this easy to do.

Frankly, if the PGA Tour was honest, they have no desire to fix the problem.

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42 minutes ago, GSwag said:

One thing I thought of with regards to this issue, is that apparently there are only 14 rules officials on the PGA Tour.  Why is this?  It seems to me that you should have 36 rules officials.  One for every teeing area, and one official on every green.  Each official has a tablet that has current times for all groups and pace of play of each.  If any group comes off a green and into a teeing area behind their expected pre-scheduled time, they are informed of such.  A note is added to the tablet that every rules official sees.  That group then has an expectation of reaching the green by an expected time, and if they are not there, well, you see where this is going.

I mean, for crying out loud, how hard can this be to moderate pace of play and enforce it?  You could have body cams on officials with a ticking clock, that is monitored from a central control room with 5 or 6 people keeping an eye on every group on every hole.  Heck, you could put the cameras on standard bearers or walking scorers.  I mean, it's not like the PGA Tour doesn't have the money for the technology or to hire the extra personnel to make this easy to do.

Frankly, if the PGA Tour was honest, they have no desire to fix the problem.

A. Your suggested solution is not in keeping with the pace of play policy.  You have to fall behind far enough, be notified, get a bad time, be warned of the bad time, and get a second bad time, all before you get the first penalty stroke.

2.  All of those additional people and that hardware would reduce the prize money.  Those poor players are already supporting a pretty big group of administrators and support staff, they won't want to add to the overhead.

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There is a stupid easy fix to the entire pace of play issue...

Identify and hold every group to a specified time to complete their round.  4 hours, 4.5 hours, whatever.  Any group that does not meet the requirement gets each player a penalty for the amount of time over the limit.  0-5 minutes = 1 stroke, 5-10 minutes = 2 strokes, and so on.  

 

To avoid a group holding up all groups behind them and causing additional penalties, if a group is penalized, each group behind them is awarded extra time based on the time the initial group is behind.  So if a group is 10 minutes behind, then each player in that group is penalized 2 stroke.  The remaining groups are granted a 10 minute "window" over their prescribed time.  

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26 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

2.  All of those additional people and that hardware would reduce the prize money.  Those poor players are already supporting a pretty big group of administrators and support staff, they won't want to add to the overhead.

I love the hint of sarcasm!  

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2 hours ago, ga_pike said:

There is a stupid easy fix to the entire pace of play issue...

Identify and hold every group to a specified time to complete their round.  4 hours, 4.5 hours, whatever.  Any group that does not meet the requirement gets each player a penalty for the amount of time over the limit.  0-5 minutes = 1 stroke, 5-10 minutes = 2 strokes, and so on.  

 

To avoid a group holding up all groups behind them and causing additional penalties, if a group is penalized, each group behind them is awarded extra time based on the time the initial group is behind.  So if a group is 10 minutes behind, then each player in that group is penalized 2 stroke.  The remaining groups are granted a 10 minute "window" over their prescribed time.  

I'd assume that somewhere there is a record of playing times of groups throughout the years. Just figure up the average for the course discarding any outliers (such as Wesley Bryan or Kevin Na -https://www.golfdigest.com/story/wesley-bryan-proves-pga-tour-players-can-hustle-playing-final-round-at-the-bmw-in-an-hour-and-29-minutes)  and use that. It'd be better than nothing

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