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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

While winning is what many determine a persons success by from the media and the fans it’s not everything. The winning percentage on tour for the non greats is below 20% iirc Phil’s is about 15%.

their job is to play golf and earn money. They aren’t going to win every event and most guys aren’t going to win every year. It’s why points and money are given based on how one finishes. Do these guys want to win? Of course but that doesn’t mean a winless season is a bad one

I agree 100%. Tiger, Jack and Arnie did not win every event. But that should be the goal, not to just be good enough to make money. 

Dave-

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12 minutes ago, Reesedw said:

I agree 100%. Tiger, Jack and Arnie did not win every event. But that should be the goal, not to just be good enough to make money. 

For the large majority of golfers it’s not just about good enough to make money but to try and win. There are guys that play every week to earn money do they can keep pursuing their dream if bring a pro golfer. Will they win one event or more than one? Probably not, but they will grind it out every week to earn a check just like many of us grind out our work week to get paid. 

Guys like jack, Arnie and tiger are a different breed. As are Phil, Vijay and DJ.

The vast majority of good to almost great golfers are going to have less than 20 wins on the pga tour for their career which for many will probably be 20-25 years. Those guys go out every week they play chasing the wind and there may be some that come Friday think to themselves I don’t have it this week to win so let me play good enough to make the cut and finish as high as I can while others may think I’m out of it right now but I have a couple more days to give it a go. 

No ones saying they are out there for participation trophies.

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1 hour ago, Reesedw said:

Ok, @GolfSpy MPR.. I respectfully think you are wrong. These are not friendly games on Sat afternoon between friends. These are competitions to see who is the best on that course at that given time played for large amounts of money.  Winning is Winning. What you are saying is the "participation medal" ideology where we do not keep score and everyone wins.. Which is wrong, we need to teach that you will be rewarded for your hard work and effort not just because you showed up.. 

Yes,Tony had a great Year But He did not WIN.. Bubba as a whole did not play as well, but he did win 3 times.. 

OK, these are fighting words 🙂 (And just to clarify, I mean that smiley face very much. I love a good-natured back-and-forth, with all the respect that this board is known for. I want to say that upfront, because I'm going to try a vigorous defense of my unpopular opinion.)

I'm certainly not arguing for participation trophies. None of this is about not keeping score and everyone being a winner. And I'll go one beyond you. You say that you should "be rewarded for your hard work and effort not just because you showed up." I don't care about hard work and effort; I'm talking about results. Who is better? I'm making an argument based on merit and performance, not on participation or even hard work (lots of guys work hard and don't perform at the highest level).

And what I'm saying is that wins (especially in golf) are an overrated measure of performance.

I think the last two months of Rory are a great example of the point I'm trying to make. Rory has been dominating the Tour in strokes gained. He has, by every objective metric, been the very best player on the PGA Tour this year. But until The Players, all he had to show for it was a string of Top 10s.

So are we supposed to think that, before The Players, Adam Long and Keith Mitchell were having a better season than Rory because he hadn't gotten a win and they had?

Let me give (what I think) is an even clearer example, and I'd love to hear your evaluation of it. Let's imagine a world in which Tiger Woods doesn't exist. In that world, Phil Mickelson was the dominant golfer for the past two decades, racking up (say) a couple dozen more wins than he already has, and another 4 majors.

Is Phil in our imaginary non-TW-world a better golfer than the Phil who exists in our world? My argument in this thought experiment is that he is the exact same quality of golfer; however, due to the absence of TW, he is now able to rack up more wins. Therefore, wins in themselves cannot be the sole measure of the quality of the golfer, since wins are (in part) a product of circumstances and not of the quality of the golf being played.

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3 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

OK, these are fighting words 🙂 (And just to clarify, I mean that smiley face very much. I love a good-natured back-and-forth, with all the respect that this board is known for. I want to say that upfront, because I'm going to try a vigorous defense of my unpopular opinion.)

I'm certainly not arguing for participation trophies. None of this is about not keeping score and everyone being a winner. And I'll go one beyond you. You say that you should "be rewarded for your hard work and effort not just because you showed up." I don't care about hard work and effort; I'm talking about results. Who is better? I'm making an argument based on merit and performance, not on participation or even hard work (lots of guys work hard and don't perform at the highest level).

And what I'm saying is that wins (especially in golf) are an overrated measure of performance.

I think the last two months of Rory are a great example of the point I'm trying to make. Rory has been dominating the Tour in strokes gained. He has, by every objective metric, been the very best player on the PGA Tour this year. But until The Players, all he had to show for it was a string of Top 10s.

So are we supposed to think that, before The Players, Adam Long and Keith Mitchell were having a better season than Rory because he hadn't gotten a win and they had?

Let me give (what I think) is an even clearer example, and I'd love to hear your evaluation of it. Let's imagine a world in which Tiger Woods doesn't exist. In that world, Phil Mickelson was the dominant golfer for the past two decades, racking up (say) a couple dozen more wins than he already has, and another 4 majors.

Is Phil in our imaginary non-TW-world a better golfer than the Phil who exists in our world? My argument in this thought experiment is that he is the exact same quality of golfer; however, due to the absence of TW, he is now able to rack up more wins. Therefore, wins in themselves cannot be the sole measure of the quality of the golfer, since wins are (in part) a product of circumstances and not of the quality of the golf being played.

I agree 100%,Phil without Tiger is not better than Phil with Tiger. The Best bring out the best. But to catch fire at the right moment and Win is without a Doubt what every Golfer wants to do.. All of these players are the top 1% of all the golfers. So Wins against any field are incredible. So to discount wins because you didn't play great every week is crazy.

Tony had a amazing year statistically and did not win. Bubba Won but was not statistically better. I take the Wins ALL day Long... 

And this is WHY this is the Best Golf Forum in the world. And why your doing a great job.. But still mistaken.. LOL🤣

 

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While winning is what many determine a persons success by from the media and the fans it’s not everything. The winning percentage on tour for the non greats is below 20% iirc Phil’s is about 15%.
their job is to play golf and earn money. They aren’t going to win every event and most guys aren’t going to win every year. It’s why points and money are given based on how one finishes. Do these guys want to win? Of course but that doesn’t mean a winless season is a bad one


+1. You only have to look at Kuch who's made a ton of money and until recently hasn't won in a long time.


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People on carts that play golf "for the exercise"!
Imagine that if I get to the stage where I need a cart (Electric buggy, fine) every round, I'll take up lawn bowls.

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Seed over all the cart paths and any golfers that want to play have to walk, take a caddie, or bring a push cart.  Yeah, I know, I just created a riot over in "The Villages", but bring it on.  I know it's unpopular to suggest such a thing, but back in the day golf was supposed to be a sport where the walking component was a big part of the competition and game.
Pace of play is maxed out at 3 1/2 hours for any group on the course.  If it's good enough for St. Andrews, then it's good enough for wherever golf is played.  You punch a card at the turn, and if you are over time (1 hour and 45 minutes per nine for those of you keeping score), your group is asked to leave the course.  Well, asked is too polite.  You'd be shown the parking lot by our staff of marshalls who are all college students from the athletic department.
Maximum handicap of 18 is allowed on the course.  Yeah, sure, that seems extreme, but we have a nice big 'ol range over there for those of you who need to work on your game a bit to get down to the maximum number.  And while we're working with your game on the range we're discussing options #1 and #2 above.  Oh yeah, and if you want to play my course, you will HAVE to have an established handicap.  Don't worry, the course is open on Tuesdays and Wednesdays for you to play a round with the pro, to keep score and to have your scores posted for handicap.  We have at least 3 pros available at any time during these days to accommodate anyone interested in playing a round.  "Gee Swag, I just don't have the time to do this, yada, yada, yada."  Well, that's part of the problem honestly that I see with most public courses on the weekends.  Guys out there wasting everyone else's time because they haven't ever practiced their game, and just show up on Saturday or whenever and dust off the clubs from the last time they played and expect to actually keep a ball in play.  Then they ****** about how their game sucks while playing a 5 hour round and holding everyone up behind them.
My course design would incorporate the following holes and distances:
Par 3s of 100, 115, 130, 145, 160 and 185.
Par 4s of 315, 330, 345, 360, 375 and 390.
Par 5s of 450, 465, 480, 505, 520 and 550.
Yeah, that's right.  Six of each par, and half of those holes would be short enough for the average golfer, and even the senior shorter hitters to reach par 4s easily in two and par 5s easily in three.  Don't worry.  If you think that 100 yard par 3 is too easy, you haven't seen my design.  The green would be about the size of my small bedroom in the house (10' x 12') and if you miss anywhere but short, the bunker you are in you are hitting out sideways or backwards, as it will be a true hazard and a true penalty, much like the postage stamp green's bunker is at Royal Troon.  Yeah, Rory took 6 shots to get out of it.  How will you fare?  I'd have doglegs on all the shorter par 4s and double doglegs on all the par 5s.  You want to cut the corner?  Go ahead.  Lots of water on the par 5s right about where you hot shot studs with 300 yards of carry will end up wet.  I will neuter your distance at every turn, and force you to use 14 clubs from your bag for all 18 holes.  Phil Mickelson may not approve, but GOOD!
Tournaments every other weekend at my course.  These are for both the men's and women's members.  You'll never get good at golf if you don't compete against your peers.  Tournaments are always gross and incorporate flights by your pre-established and witnessed handicapped scores.  The cost of these tournaments would be the same as the greens fees currently are, which would be free to members, plus a $10 entry fee for the kitty.  The winner of each flight takes how the cash.  And if you win flight "B", you are in flight "A" next time around.  If you are last in flight "B", you are in flight "C" next time around.
Honestly, the above is not realistic in our day and age when most folks are splitting their time 15 different ways.  I'm genuinely looking for 200 people for my type of club, where the membership fees are reasonable ($150 a month or less).  You will get in shape at my club, and you will always have a game waiting for you.  I would establish an online members only website where members could post requests for tee times, and seek pairings with fellow members.  I would also have a complete online database with all members contact information, and including handicaps.  There are no outliers or strangers at my club.  We all love golf, and we all want to play as much as possible.  Enough of the old boys club.  Everyone can play with everyone else, and there are no cliques at my club.  Be engaging with your fellow members or play somewhere else.
In my imaginary Field of Dreams course, I'd probably flip it so that Tuesday and Thursdays are for speed rounds that are finished in 3:45 max with flags on the putting green that are non-removable. I think that would get the point across.

My unpopular opinion is that wives should be invited to play sometimes (if they can).

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I’ll play

- No Laying Up is played out.
- I don’t mind Brandel Chamblee that much.
- Amateurs pay far too much attention to what the pros play instead of playing what’s best for them.
- Hawaii golf is VASTLY overrated.
- FootJoy makes horrendous looking golf shoes.
- The whole ‘hot take’ culture has taken away from the sources that still attempt to put out thoughtful golf analysis.

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Have no idea whether this opinion is unpopular or not, but Paul Azinger is terrible in the booth so far. If Johnny Miller was overly critical, Azinger is way too much of a cheerleader and thinks every shot is great. They are PGA Tour pros Paul. They should be able to execute standard shots.

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That's a solid unpopular opinion. I'll raise it: we put too much emphasis on winning in general. Tony Finau had a better season than Bubba Watson last year, even though Bubba won three events and Finau never had a victory.
This has turned out to be an unpopular opinion! You're playing the game the right way.

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5 hours ago, mr.hicksta said:

No Laying Up is played out.

Gotta disagree with you there!  "Wild World of Golf" is better than anything Golf Channel has produced..........maybe ever.  If you haven't seen it, do yourself a favor!

Everything else in your list, I completely agree with.

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7 hours ago, mr.hicksta said:

- FootJoy makes horrendous looking golf shoes.

Amen!

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1 hour ago, sixcat said:

Gotta disagree with you there!  "Wild World of Golf" is better than anything Golf Channel has produced..........maybe ever.  If you haven't seen it, do yourself a favor!

Everything else in your list, I completely agree with.

This was the one of the most entertaining things I watched on youtube ever.

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Hank Haney is highly overrated!

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9 hours ago, SeeMore Putts said:

My unpopular opinion is that wives should be invited to play sometimes (if they can).
 

My wife invites me to play... well, she tells me when we are playing.  She makes the tee times.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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The handicap system should be abolished entirely - net score is a delusional notion.

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6 minutes ago, downlowkey said:

The handicap system should be abolished entirely - net score is a delusional notion.

Holy unpopular opinion! 

Do you have any thoughts behind it that you want to share, @downlowkey?

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22 minutes ago, downlowkey said:

The handicap system should be abolished entirely - net score is a delusional notion.

I have no doubt that there is room for improvement in the current system, but how are two people (like you and me) supposed to play such that it is fair and I have a fighting chance to beat you, or do I just avoid playing guys like you? In our league, our HC's range from 2 to 30. If we played straight up, I'm sure many would lose interest real fast.

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1 hour ago, downlowkey said:

The handicap system should be abolished entirely - net score is a delusional notion.

Easy for a +1 handicapper to say...LOL  

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58 minutes ago, palvord said:

Holy unpopular opinion! 

Do you have any thoughts behind it that you want to share, @downlowkey?

I’ll get over it in a few weeks but always feel this way at the start of tournament season. As a plus index with a thick layer of Winter rust, the idea of giving match play strokes to a 0.0 seems ridiculous.

33 minutes ago, MaxEntropy said:

I have no doubt that there is room for improvement in the current system, but how are two people (like you and me) supposed to play such that it is fair and I have a fighting chance to beat you, or do I just avoid playing guys like you? In our league, our HC's range from 2 to 30. If we played straight up, I'm sure many would lose interest real fast.

Golf is incredibly difficult but inherently fair. I have invested tens-of-thousands of hours in my golf game. What’s fair about a high handicapper subsequently beating me via fantasy scoring based on a hypothetical estimation of their abilities? If you’re not counting all your strokes, in my mind it’s not real golf. That said, I enjoy playing golf with individuals of all skill levels.

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32 minutes ago, CarlH said:

Easy for a +1 handicapper to say...LOL  

I’m technically a +1.8 which rounds to +2.0 for tourney scoring purposes. And I can assure you there is nothing easy about attaining/maintaining that level. I can understand why golfers on the other end of the spectrum can’t appreciate my perspective but it doesn’t make it any less valid re: the fairness doctrine.

:cobra-small:______S9-1 Pro D - Matrix Ozik XCON 6 S
:cobra-small:______S9-1 Pro 15* - Matrix Ozik XCON 7 S
:nickent-small:________3DX 17* - Matrix Ozik Altus Hybrid SG
:Hogan:______ICON Black 4-PW - KBS Tour V S
:cleveland-small:__________588 RTG 49  RTX 52.10  56.12 - DG S400
BobbyGrace.png.1dc40002fcec0eee8603b71b3e706e89.png______Amazing Grace NYC Tour CS
:taylormade-small:_______'19 TP5X
(the preceding have all been gamer approved)

"The most important shot in golf is the next one“ - Ben Hogan

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I’m technically a +1.8 which rounds to +2.0 for tourney scoring purposes. And I can assure you there is nothing easy about attaining/maintaining that level. I can understand why golfers on the other end of the spectrum can’t appreciate my perspective but it doesn’t make it any less valid re: the fairness doctrine.


I used to dislike the handicap system when I was playing horseshoes “professionally”, I was giving points away like crazy.

The world tournaments didn’t have handicaps. You were put into a category based on your ringer percentages. There was always a sand bagger in the mix.

My best match in competition was 30/40 ringers. I threw a 38/40 game in practice.
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50 minutes ago, downlowkey said:

I’m technically a +1.8 which rounds to +2.0 for tourney scoring purposes. And I can assure you there is nothing easy about attaining/maintaining that level. I can understand why golfers on the other end of the spectrum can’t appreciate my perspective but it doesn’t make it any less valid re: the fairness doctrine.

Was not my intent to diminish your accomplishments at all!  I have high respect for those that can play at the level you play.  While I aspire to shoot the best gross score that I can, every time I play, I know that I cannot compete on an even scale for gross score against anyone significantly more skilled than I.  In competitive tournament play, you are striving for the win at the gross level of the championship flight.  I get that and appreciate that.  I also prefer to compete on a gross level, but I also know that I do not belong in the same flight as a scratch golfer.  I fully understand your position regarding having to give strokes to a higher handicap player as I often engage in friendly, competitive games having to give away 10-20 strokes.  On the medal play, I don't have issues with that -- I do balk when playing match play as I am at a distinct disadvantage, as are you when you have to give me 10 strokes (give or take)

Driver: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max (10.5* set at -1 and neutral) -- Mitsubishi Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Fairway: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max 3 wood (16.5*) and Heaven Wood (20*)-- Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Hybrids: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max 5H (23*)--Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Irons:  :callaway-small: Apex CF19 6-9, PW, AW -- KBS Tour Graphite  TGI 70 shafts R +1/2 inch 3* upright

Wedges: Edison 53* and  57* KBS PGI 80 Graphite +1/2 inch 2* upright

Putter: L.A.B. DF 2.1 -- BGT Stability shaft

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47 minutes ago, CarlH said:

Was not my intent to diminish your accomplishments at all!  I have high respect for those that can play at the level you play.  While I aspire to shoot the best gross score that I can, every time I play, I know that I cannot compete on an even scale for gross score against anyone significantly more skilled than I.  In competitive tournament play, you are striving for the win at the gross level of the championship flight.  I get that and appreciate that.  I also prefer to compete on a gross level, but I also know that I do not belong in the same flight as a scratch golfer.  I fully understand your position regarding having to give strokes to a higher handicap player as I often engage in friendly, competitive games having to give away 10-20 strokes.  On the medal play, I don't have issues with that -- I do balk when playing match play as I am at a distinct disadvantage, as are you when you have to give me 10 strokes (give or take)

No offense taken, pards. Strictly from the perspective of normal distribution, it’s perfectly sensible why my thoughts on net scoring would be in the extreme minority. Because the topic is unpopular opinions, my posts and everyone’s replies all seem to be in line with the spirit of this thread.

:cobra-small:______S9-1 Pro D - Matrix Ozik XCON 6 S
:cobra-small:______S9-1 Pro 15* - Matrix Ozik XCON 7 S
:nickent-small:________3DX 17* - Matrix Ozik Altus Hybrid SG
:Hogan:______ICON Black 4-PW - KBS Tour V S
:cleveland-small:__________588 RTG 49  RTX 52.10  56.12 - DG S400
BobbyGrace.png.1dc40002fcec0eee8603b71b3e706e89.png______Amazing Grace NYC Tour CS
:taylormade-small:_______'19 TP5X
(the preceding have all been gamer approved)

"The most important shot in golf is the next one“ - Ben Hogan

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I don't disagree that the handicap system is flawed. One of my big contentions with it for years has been match play, and how the strokes are given on the card. I think that in match play spinning off the low handicap is the wrong way to do it. The strokes should fall where they fall. 

@downlowkey I have thought about this for years but have not come up with a solution. What are your thoughts on how to change it? 

:taylormade-small:     Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") 

image.png.dee92ef6cebb2ac4a3883744fc248f12.png     Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43")

:ping-small:          G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x)

:ping-small:          G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x)

:srixon-small:            ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S)

:titleist-small:            Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610)

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1 minute ago, THEZIPR23 said:

I have thought about this for years but have not come up with a solution. What are your thoughts on how to change it? 

You didn't ask my opinion, but you are getting it anyway... 😉

I assume it's just a matter of time before every club and/or ball will in some way be connected to the cloud, making "big brother" tracking and HC calculation easier and HC manipulation more difficult - if you want a HC, your strokes are tracked. Blow up on the first hole so you decide you don't want to keep score? Too bad, the cloud already has your data.

How do you make the calculation or the application of the HC more fair? I'm not sure about the best answer to that, but it seems to me a more fool-proof way of eliminating HC manipulation would be a great start.

Driver:  :callaway-small:Epic Speed 9* (set -1) MMT 70X
3W:bridgestone-small: Tour B JGR Recoil 760ES
3H, 4H: :bridgestone-small: Tour B JGR 19*, 23* Recoil 780ES
4-AW:bridgestone-small: Tour B JGR HF2 Modus3 Tour 105
SW: :cleveland-small: RTX Zipcore Black Satin 54*
LW:Sub70: TAIII Black 58*
Putter:ping-small: Scottsdale TR Senita
Bag: BigMax Dri Active Lite
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Pushcart: BigMax iQ+

Testing Complete, Final Review PostedSub70 TAIII Forged Wedges

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19 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

I don't disagree that the handicap system is flawed. One of my big contentions with it for years has been match play, and how the strokes are given on the card. I think that in match play spinning off the low handicap is the wrong way to do it. The strokes should fall where they fall. 

@downlowkey I have thought about this for years but have not come up with a solution. What are your thoughts on how to change it? 

Fixing the handicap system is a topic that probably deserves its own thread. Match play net scoring is my real bugaboo. Because the format is a very large bracket competition in our men’s group, it starts very early in the season. Last time I entered as a rusty +2.5 (committee rounded +3.0) and drew a 35 handicap in the first round. That’s a total of 38 strokes - 2 strokes on 16 holes and 3 on the two most difficult holes. I somehow manged to halve the match through 18 then lost on the first extra hole with a par against a bogey (net birdie). I _love_ matchplay but have little incentive to participate in net formats.

:cobra-small:______S9-1 Pro D - Matrix Ozik XCON 6 S
:cobra-small:______S9-1 Pro 15* - Matrix Ozik XCON 7 S
:nickent-small:________3DX 17* - Matrix Ozik Altus Hybrid SG
:Hogan:______ICON Black 4-PW - KBS Tour V S
:cleveland-small:__________588 RTG 49  RTX 52.10  56.12 - DG S400
BobbyGrace.png.1dc40002fcec0eee8603b71b3e706e89.png______Amazing Grace NYC Tour CS
:taylormade-small:_______'19 TP5X
(the preceding have all been gamer approved)

"The most important shot in golf is the next one“ - Ben Hogan

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Here are 2:

1.) Totally against folks wearing golf shoes to go WATCH a golf tournament. So weird to me.

2.) Totally against ANY type of golf shoe as a shoe worn “off course”. Golf shoes have nubs, or spikes, and we don’t need those to have better traction at the mall..............
Just weird to me. Golf shoes are worn on a golf course, or practice area, then taken off and put in the trunk. Driving to the range to hit/putt? Ok. But NEVER for around town before/after a round!!!


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Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X

Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X

Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X

Irons:  Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50D/54V/58D:Nippon:Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX

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