Evnroll ER1TS and Tour Stroke Trainer

[GolfSpy MPR]

I know that we have a thread already for the current Evnroll lineup, but the ER1TS and Tour Stroke Trainer are such unusual putters that I thought they merited their own thread.

If you're totally unfamiliar with the concept of these putters, this recent video (featuring the man, myth, and legend Guerin Rife himself) is a great place to start:

I just received my own Tour Stroke Trainer today. In this post, I'm going to offer my first impressions; as I keep using it in the next weeks and months (hopefully longer), I'll keep this thread updated. I'm of the opinion that a review of any training aid takes time, as the goal isn't a great first impression but sustained improvement.

I am impressed (but unsurprised) that the Tour Stroke Trainer feels like a quality putter. Fit and finish are what you would hope and expect. The putter comes standard with a textured rubber grip; I'll likely replace that with either a SuperStroke Flatso 1.0 (which I have lying around) or a P2 Aware (to match my Evnroll ER6).

The putter looks as odd in person as the pictures would lead you to expect.

I like the headcover. I get a kick out of the "It's Legal" script on the headcover itself:

That said, the quotation marks around "It's Legal" annoy the grammar snob in me. Quotation marks aren't intended for emphasis. Pointless quotation marks have the effect of "air quotes"; they imply that you're saying the opposite of what the words literally mean. Imagine a competitor questioning whether your Tour Stroke is a legit conforming putter, and you pull out your headcover and tell him, "See, it says it's 'legal' right here." Very reassuring.

Grammar quibbles aside, when you put the headcover on, the radical offset gives the appearance that you went all mad DeChambeau, slamming the putter into the ground until it bent. This amuses me:

I have been immediately impressed by the feel of this Trainer. I can't compare it to the high-dollar milled ER1TS, but I can compare it to my ER6. My preference is for soft feeling, muted-sounding putters. Count me surprised that the cast Trainer is far more appealing to me on that front than is my ER6.

As for the Trainer as an aid: it is promising so far. My standard putting miss is a pull. I expect that the massive offset of the Tour Stroke to be a strong encouragement to keep the face square to the target all the way through impact.

My biggest question is transference: why should I expect that, after working with the Tour Stroke for any length of time,  my stroke with my ER6 would change to match the stroke demanded by such an unusual design?

My plan is to use the Tour Stroke regularly for the next several weeks. I'll add observations to this thread from time to time on it. I'm also going to keep track of how my putting changes with my ER6, both in terms of my record of making putts in drills I do reguarly on my green and in swing analysis with my SwingByte.

If you have any questions about the Tour Stroke, I'll do my best to to answer them here.

[cnosil]

Countering your grammer police opinion,  it is probably a quote of what Guerin says whenever someone sees the putter ask asks is it legal?   It is simply a quote of his response

Regarding the putter.  It is definitely an interesting putter.   Not sure I would actually put on in play on a regular basis without lots of practice.  The non trainer version is in the blade testing and it wasn't one of my favorites or best performers.

[perseveringgolfer]

Maybe not as unusual as you think. 

Heres a Ping Karsten Cu5 I have. The angles on the evnroll are greater but this aint far off and Ping did this many years ago.

 

[GolfSpy MPR]

@perseveringgolfer: definitely looks like the same idea. From your pictures, that looks like about two shafts off offset? I'd guess the Evnroll is closer to 3.5 or 4. It's essentially a full ball offset:

In another thread, someone pointed out that Guerin Rife released a Tour Stroke putter already under the Rife brand.

All goes to show: most new and revolutionary ideas in golf are neither

[tarrantian]

Think I saw Ryan Moore gaming the new ER1TS at Bay Hill this AM?

He has to be one of the prolific putter tinkerers on the PGA tour...

Good to see he good taste in his most recent selection. 

[GolfSpy MPR]

For a good review, I really should have established a firm putting stats baseline. But last night, I was doing some putting practice and assembled some interesting numbers with my SwingByte. I use interesting here because I just have no idea what they mean.

Here's an average of nine putts with each of my Odyssey Toe Up #1 and the Evnroll Tour Stroke Trainer:

Toe Up:

• Path: 6.1° out to in
• Face to path: 4.3° open to path
• Thus: face 1.8° closed to address position

Tour Stroke:

• Path: 6.6° out to in
• Face to path: 4.8° open to path
• Thus: face 1.8° closed to address position

I posted in my single digit project thread that I have a consistent tendency to aim open to the correct line, and then to close the face at impact. That compensation consistently comes in right around 2°, as it does here (with both putters).

What I found interesting is that the Tour Stroke was actually even more out to in than the Toe Up.

I literally don't know what any of this means. I was making the vast majority of my 8 footers with both putters while I was doing this.

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

For a good review, I really should have established a firm putting stats baseline. But last night, I was doing some putting practice and assembled some interesting numbers with my SwingByte. I use interesting here because I just have no idea what they mean.

Here's an average of nine putts with each of my Odyssey Toe Up #1 and the Evnroll Tour Stroke Trainer:

Toe Up:

• Path: 6.1° out to in
• Face to path: 4.3° open to path
• Thus: face 1.8° closed to address position

Tour Stroke:

• Path: 6.6° out to in
• Face to path: 4.8° open to path
• Thus: face 1.8° closed to address position

I posted in my single digit project thread that I have a consistent tendency to aim open to the correct line, and then to close the face at impact. That compensation consistently comes in right around 2°, as it does here (with both putters).

What I found interesting is that the Tour Stroke was actually even more out to in than the Toe Up.

I literally don't know what any of this means. I was making the vast majority of my 8 footers with both putters while I was doing this.

Here is some help on what it means.   The out to in path is most likely because your shoulders are open to the target line.  It would be better to know face to target line to better explain.    Depending on the study, research has shown that face angle can have anywhere between 85-90% influence on the balls direction and the rest is path.   That means that you have about .5* of error on face angle to make a 15 foot putt, 1* for 8 feet, and 2* for a 5 foot putt.    With your 6.1* open path; assuming face has 85% impact, you need the face to be open .915* to roll down the target line.    I am sure you setup open because you used to miss everything left so you compensate with the  open face at setup.  Yes,  the face is closing at impact because your stroke arcs and because of that it is supposed to close.  By changing nothing in your stroke,  you could seek a putter that rotates and results in the .915* face angle at impact and roll the ball down your start line.   You made your 8 footers because the putter face at impact was within the 1* of error.  

 

 

[romeopapazulu]

Do you have a putting mirror?  I got a cheap knockoff on Amazon that works fine, but it is a bit narrow, so checking shoulder alignments isn't the easiest.  One of the wider ones would make it easy to verify where the shoulders are lined up.

Can you make a diy laser alignment checker?  The TXG putting videos usually pull one out to check where Matt is lined up.  That would be handy to see which one of your putters lines up closest to on line for you.

I won't pretend to be a putting expert, but all those numbers sound like a lot of compensations.  Adam Young makes some good points that variability is awesome, but unnecessary compensations aren't beneficial.  I would rather cut out some of the compensations than get a putter that encourages them.  You have tried the Malaska drill to get setup in a position that helps you line up the putt to the intended line without much success.  If you are lining up so open to the line, would setting up square help find a suitable position?  Maybe that is the domino you need to get everything else to fall into place.

[GolfSpy MPR]

On me: I'm nearly certain, at this point, that I aim 2° right and quite consistently close the face 2° at impact to adjust for that. Unless my putting is awful when the season (finally) starts here, I think that may be just something I live with.

The path issue is interesting to me. Thesis: there's at least a chance that my measuring tool (the SwingByte) is less than perfect. Obviously, there's some margain of error built in to the device itself, plus however accurate I am aligning it when I place it on the shaft. I'm hoping to get a putter gate in the near future (one that forces a certain path), and that'll end up being a good way to calibrate the SwingByte.

As for the Tour Stroke itself: there's a halfway decent chance that the Trainer ends up in my bag as my main putter when the season starts. It complements my stroke well, and it is very stable. Plus, having the Evnroll grooves is always a plus.

I posted elsewhere that Guerin Rife claims a effective 10,000 MOI figure for this putter, because of the extreme offset. So it's essentially got the resistance to twisting of something like the Cure putters, without the extreme weighting.

I just ordered a Winn NTP grip; that's a new one, I believe, non-tapered. I got it in red, which should look good on the Tour Stroke.

[M. Parsons]

I'm really interested in this putter and what all you have to say about it. A while back I read Tiger's book and he talked about placing the head of the putter a few inches behind the ball on really long putts, saying that this would help to get it there. I still do that to this day on putts over 40 feet. So, I'm wondering if using this putter in the "Pactice Mode" would make putts go further?

 

 

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[cnosil]

6 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

I'm really interested in this putter and what all you have to say about it. A while back I read Tiger's book and he talked about placing the head of the putter a few inches behind the ball on really long putts, saying that this would help to get it there. I still do that to this day on putts over 40 feet. So, I'm wondering if using this putter in the "Pactice Mode" would make putts go further?

 

Following this approach would be a subconscious thing and may work for you.   How far the ball travels is based on how fast the putter is going and how well you make contact.    

[GolfSpy MPR]

Regripping:

[GolfSpy MPR]

Definitely enjoying this combination so far. Working on squaring up my alignment a bit (I tend to set up with my feet and shoulders open), and this is cooperating very nicely.

Getting in some useful practice:

 

[GolfSpy MPR]

One more: clipped my phone to a basement rafter for the overhead view. The board is telling me that I'm really not crossing the line on my backstroke, but I do still come a bit inside on my through stroke.

 

[cnosil]

One more: clipped my phone to a basement rafter for the overhead view. The board is telling me that I'm really not crossing the line on my backstroke, but I do still come a bit inside on my through stroke.
 

Your “but” makes it sound like a bad thing. Coming inside isn’t bad.

[GolfSpy MPR]

5 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Your “but” makes it sound like a bad thing. Coming inside isn’t bad.

 

Good call, @cnosil. My concern wasn't so much coming inside after impact, but that I'd already be cutting inside at impact. From what I'm seeing playing my video back in slow motion, I'm content with where I am at impact and then letting the club release inside.

You've been a big help with my putting in these last few months; I appreciate the comments you've made.

[M. Parsons]

Following this approach would be a subconscious thing and may work for you.   How far the ball travels is based on how fast the putter is going and how well you make contact.    

I don't completely disagree with you, but it makes sense that if you take a longer back stroke (which is what you are essentially doing when you start with the putter face 2-3 inches behind your ball). Doing this will help you keep a consistent length of back stroke. You should try it out on the putting green next time you're out there.


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[cnosil]

I don't completely disagree with you, but it makes sense that if you take a longer back stroke (which is what you are essentially doing when you start with the putter face 2-3 inches behind your ball). Doing this will help you keep a consistent length of back stroke. You should try it out on the putting green next time you're out there.

Based on this it sounds like you make a single length stroke for all putts and just vary speed?

I don’t want a consistent length backstroke. During my stroke I feel my body moving the putter to a certain spot based on length. I did try this after you posted and saw no noticeable difference.

It is interesting that the premise of the Evnroll practice is to move the head 2-3” behind the ball. Per my discussions with Guerin it was to promote shorter backstroke and longer follow through and to keep the putter square longer. Either way it is a psychological thing designed to influence the stroke.

I’d be interested in hearing your results if you did this with your eyes closed during the stroke to see if it is a visual trick designed to influence the stroke.

[M. Parsons]

29 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

Based on this it sounds like you make a single length stroke for all putts and just vary speed?

I don’t want a consistent length backstroke. During my stroke I feel my body moving the putter to a certain spot based on length. I did try this after you posted and saw no noticeable difference.

It is interesting that the premise of the Evnroll practice is to move the head 2-3” behind the ball. Per my discussions with Guerin it was to promote shorter backstroke and longer follow through and to keep the putter square longer. Either way it is a psychological thing designed to influence the stroke.

I’d be interested in hearing your results if you did this with your eyes closed during the stroke to see if it is a visual trick designed to influence the stroke.

 

Thank you for your response, and I sure will try that the next time I'm out there. However, I have tried the old Spieth method of looking at the hole during the stroke, and while the results were fairly positive, I found that the ball was usually hit a little firmer than I probably would have if I'd been looking at the ball. Also, one of my playing partners just ordered the TST, so I'm looking forward to trying it out.

To answer your question about my backstroke, it's not consistent, it does obviously need to be longer on longer putts, but doing as Tiger suggested in his book ensures that the putt is not woefully short...at least that's how I've found it to be.

[cnosil]

Thank you for your response, and I sure will try that the next time I'm out there. However, I have tried the old Spieth method of looking at the hole during the stroke, and while the results were fairly positive, I found that the ball was usually hit a little firmer than I probably would have if I'd been looking at the ball. Also, one of my playing partners just ordered the TST, so I'm looking forward to trying it out.
To answer your question about my backstroke, it's not consistent, it does obviously need to be longer on longer putts, but doing as Tiger suggested in his book ensures that the putt is not woefully short...at least that's how I've found it to be.

This is why there is no one approach for any player. Players fall at various points on the mechanical/feel line and each will have their various strategies on how to make putts. Your look at the hole comment shows that you vary based on visual input that translate to a different feel. I translate visual to something more toward the mechanical side of the line.

Thanks for your comments, always interesting to hear the various processes people use for putting.

[threetimes lucky]

Hi, I was just wondering how you got on with the EVNROLL  trainer putter, if your still impressed with it thanks Gary

[GolfSpy MPR]

Gary,

Thanks for asking! I used the TS1 Trainer for my first few rounds of the year with somewhat surprising results. For me, it performed very well on lag putts, which is opposite the experience of some others I've read. I really struggled on putts from 5" and in.

To be fair: I always struggle on putts from 5" and in

I've since been playing my rounds with an Odyssey EXO Indianapolis S, but still using the TS1 for practice. I think that's a good combination for me. I value what the TS1 is trying to encourage: keeping the face square all the way through impact. Building that feeling in practice (with my PuttOUT mirror) has kept my putting in an acceptable place this season.

[dvapivo]

this putter was an instant as I one putted the first 6 holes hit but has slowly let me down after about 5-6 rounds with it in the bag the my lag putting isn't as good as it was.  It is still great inside 10 feet but lag putting is not that consistent. Occasionally the extra offset also causes me doubt in my alignment. It is still very accurate 10-15 feet and in. But lag putting is difficult for distance control and even not nipping the grass. If i had enough room in my bag to carry two putters i would use this exclusively inside 10-15 feet. But the long distance / lag putting struggle is a big learning curve. (previous putter was 2 ball BackStryke (center shaft with big offset)

[Net Double]

As a newer golfer, and not totally into the data and numbers like most people are, I DO have an opinion about this putter.

I bought a Tour Stroke putter, and had the black/grey Gravity grip installed on it as well.

A titch of info before my opinion, I decided to work backwards on my game, maybe I'm wrong on this, but it is what i decided none-the-less I worked on Driver until most of my drives were playable, then I worked on Irons to make sure I could get to green in almost regulation regularly, now I'm working on wedges(there is A LOT here surprisingly) I have not even looked at practicing putting yet, and my thought process was/is Putting is the fastest way to drop strokes from your rounds (wedges are a big deal and go hand in hand IMO) So that is my background, no putter practice.

I bought the tour stroke putter and immediately became a better putter, not sure if it is placebo or not, but the 20,000 MOI mixed with the Gravity grip helps me keep puts on line longer, my "gimmie" range (I dont give myself gimmies) increased a foot after one round of using it (distances got sketchy for about 6-8 putts I was using a putter with an insert before purchasing this, so I assume its a feel thing). My Lower handicap friends have all started complimenting how much better my putting stoke is now after using it for 3 months, and I assume its because of the shorter back swing and longer follow through this almost forces you to make. All in all for a newer golfer that doesn't practice putting it has helped me not rattle my knees so much at 2-3 feet.

[GolfSpy MPR]

Nice writeup, @Net Double.

For me now, the Tour Stroke Trainer is my main putter for practice. I keep it in my office with my PuttOut, and a couple times a day I'll grab to roll a dozen putts. Even though I've not taken it to the course in quite some time, it keeps my stroke the way I want it, and my putting numbers this year have been very solid for me.

[Net Double]

@GolfSpy MPR Thanks!

 

Did you put a gravity grip on it? and what are you gaming? I'm thinking after I get my putting skills up I'd like something with a more natural profile myself, I def will be getting an EvnRoll when i do, that is for sure.

[GolfSpy MPR]

My main gamer right now is an Odyssey Stroke Lab R Ball (slant neck). It has the stock oversized Odyssey grip on it (the first putter I've bought and not regripped in ages). On my Tour Stroke Trainer, I have the Winn NTP.

I've used a Gravity Grip (on a custom home-built Stroke Lab shaft I made for my Odyssey EXO Indianapolis), and I really like it. I've found that on the course, a slant-neck mallet does well for me; I wish Evnroll would produce something with that hosel.

[FrankyC]

I was just wondering if the shaft on the stroke trainer could be changed if you feel like you no longer need the training aid? I bought one and love it but am thinking of reshafting it with a more generic looking shaft to give it a similar look to the ER1. 

[GolfSpy MPR]

20 minutes ago, FrankyC said:

I was just wondering if the shaft on the stroke trainer could be changed if you feel like you no longer need the training aid? I bought one and love it but am thinking of reshafting it with a more generic looking shaft to give it a similar look to the ER1. 

The training aid portion of it is the hosel, not the shaft. The shaft is just an ordinary straight shaft.

If you wanted to replace the hosel, the are places that do custom putter work like that. I'm not a welder, so that kind of mod is beyond my skill set.

[wesmith4]

On 3/8/2019 at 9:14 PM, GolfSpy MPR said:

I know that we have a thread already for the current Evnroll lineup, but the ER1TS and Tour Stroke Trainer are such unusual putters that I thought they merited their own thread.

If you're totally unfamiliar with the concept of these putters, this recent video (featuring the man, myth, and legend Guerin Rife himself) is a great place to start:

I just received my own Tour Stroke Trainer today. In this post, I'm going to offer my first impressions; as I keep using it in the next weeks and months (hopefully longer), I'll keep this thread updated. I'm of the opinion that a review of any training aid takes time, as the goal isn't a great first impression but sustained improvement.

I am impressed (but unsurprised) that the Tour Stroke Trainer feels like a quality putter. Fit and finish are what you would hope and expect. The putter comes standard with a textured rubber grip; I'll likely replace that with either a SuperStroke Flatso 1.0 (which I have lying around) or a P2 Aware (to match my Evnroll ER6).

The putter looks as odd in person as the pictures would lead you to expect.

I like the headcover. I get a kick out of the "It's Legal" script on the headcover itself:

That said, the quotation marks around "It's Legal" annoy the grammar snob in me. Quotation marks aren't intended for emphasis. Pointless quotation marks have the effect of "air quotes"; they imply that you're saying the opposite of what the words literally mean. Imagine a competitor questioning whether your Tour Stroke is a legit conforming putter, and you pull out your headcover and tell him, "See, it says it's 'legal' right here." Very reassuring.

Grammar quibbles aside, when you put the headcover on, the radical offset gives the appearance that you went all mad DeChambeau, slamming the putter into the ground until it bent. This amuses me:

I have been immediately impressed by the feel of this Trainer. I can't compare it to the high-dollar milled ER1TS, but I can compare it to my ER6. My preference is for soft feeling, muted-sounding putters. Count me surprised that the cast Trainer is far more appealing to me on that front than is my ER6.

As for the Trainer as an aid: it is promising so far. My standard putting miss is a pull. I expect that the massive offset of the Tour Stroke to be a strong encouragement to keep the face square to the target all the way through impact.

My biggest question is transference: why should I expect that, after working with the Tour Stroke for any length of time,  my stroke with my ER6 would change to match the stroke demanded by such an unusual design?

My plan is to use the Tour Stroke regularly for the next several weeks. I'll add observations to this thread from time to time on it. I'm also going to keep track of how my putting changes with my ER6, both in terms of my record of making putts in drills I do reguarly on my green and in swing analysis with my SwingByte.

If you have any questions about the Tour Stroke, I'll do my best to to answer them here.

What is actually happening when switched between "Practice" and "Play" mode?