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Shankster

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I know Mr. Chamblee can strike some nerves sometimes, but the man had a point on Rory after round 3.

 

Why is it that the players coach, agent, strength coach, Mother’s brothers brother, caddies best bro, and what ever else’s cousin is out there during their warm ups.

 

The best players in the game have all these people pulling them in different directions. Is it good for them?

 

Did Ben, Jack, Arnie, Old Tom have 20 people standing there going over data?

 

I’ve been reading a lot about Seve and how when he tried to get too technical and his game started to fall apart.

 

At what point do you just leave talent alone?

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Just a player and caddie doesn’t seem to be how it works anymore. You will see it across all tours; almost like the players don’t trust anything they do.

Swing and putting coach for last minute fixes, caddie to clean clubs, Agent for those last minute deals, family for moral support, club sponsors to get and tweak equipment.

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Just a player and caddie doesn’t seem to be how it works anymore. You will see it across all tours; almost like the players don’t trust anything they do.

Swing and putting coach for last minute fixes, caddie to clean clubs, Agent for those last minute deals, family for moral support, club sponsors to get and tweak equipment.


I get it a little bit. But it seems like it is getting more and more.

Tour trucks have been there for ever. Family makes sense.

It’s their job, looking out for number 1 I get it. Seems like there are too many hands involved in some of them. But what do I know.
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4 minutes ago, Shankster said:

 


I get it a little bit. But it seems like it is getting more and more.

Tour trucks have been there for ever. Family makes sense.

It’s their job, looking out for number 1 I get it. Seems like there are too many hands involved in some of them. But what do I know.

 

May be that's why I can't bring my handicap down...too many hands involved...mainly just two...mine. 😉

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This has been a topic of conversation between my brother and I for at least the past decade.  It's been fascinating to watch regardless of sport.  The ESPN 30 for 30 "Broke" goes into some detail about how posse's can liquidate a players assets during the "hanger-on" period as well.

I don't like crowds of people anyway.  My "circle" hasn't grown or changed very much since I was 6 years old.  I couldn't fathom allowing that many people in my ear.

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I could certainly deal with having a swing coach at my beckon whenever I wanted one....now if I could just win the lottery because those odds are better than me ever winning a golf tournament that pays the big bucks 🙂

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For those who haven’t played in high level competitions, you cannot comprehend how utterly alone a player can feel out there. A crisis of confidence, muscle tweak, homesickness, bad dream, etc, can be the difference between cashing a check and losing a pile. If you believe players don’t see benefit from every single individual they invite inside the ropes then you don’t understand the razor thin margins at the top of this game. And convenient as it may be for your argument, assuming those individuals within a player’s staff are “pulling them in different directions” is completely baseless. Modern purses/endorsement contracts create an entirely different cost/benefit analysis than the one facing players in the past. Also, in my opinion, Chamblee is just the worst.

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I see your points DLK. By pulling them in different directions I was meaning changing swing coaches often. It might not be as often as I think but listening to the Ferhty podcast with Tommy he talked about getting too technical and went back to his old coach.

You make valid points though.

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2 minutes ago, Shankster said:

I see your points DLK. By pulling them in different directions I was meaning changing swing coaches often. It might not be as often as I think but listening to the Ferhty podcast with Tommy he talked about getting too technical and went back to his old coach.

You make valid points though.

I do see the point behind changing swing coaches though. Sometimes it helps to get a fresh set of eyes on your swing. Sticking with the same coach, the coach might get so used to seeing a specific swing flaw you have, and end up just ignoring it. That significantly hinders your ability to continue improving with that coach. You need to find coaches that think similarly and have similar methods, but sticking with one coach can get you stuck in a rut. 

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7 minutes ago, downlowkey said:

For those who haven’t played in  high level competitions, you cannot comprehend how utterly alone a player can feel out there. A crisis of confidence, muscle tweak, homesickness, bad dream, etc, can be the difference between cashing a check and losing a pile. If you believe players don’t see benefit from every single individual they invite inside the ropes then you don’t understand the razor thin margins at the top of this game. And convenient as it may be for your argument, assuming those individuals within a player’s staff are “pulling them in different directions” is completely baseless. Modern purses/endorsement contracts create an entirely different cost/benefit analysis than the one facing players in the past. Also, in my opinion, Chamblee is just the worst.

I thought it was funny that Rory told those guys that he has them muted in the clubhouse before the round.

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@Shankster - things just change - people have changed - whose to say whether this way or Hogan's way was better?  It's different for sure but it is what it is - I try to ignore it and watch the golf because what worked for my generation won't work for this one.  My son and I had a lengthy chat about that over some beers yesterday.  Actually he thanked me for being more understanding of millenials than most boomers - he wanted to know if I were at the tail end and so I exhibit characterics of another generation group (I'm not, I'm a boomer through and through it just manifests itself differently and because of my position I need to work with all the generations)

Thanks for defending our right to watch the golf and to an opinion BTW!

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Not saying anyone’s way is better. I played horseshoes at the world championship level at 8-17 years old. I had me, myself and I. I was my swing coach, strength and conditioning coach, mental coach. I placed 1st once and had many runner ups, and third places.

Just wondering at what point does someone say enough is enough?

I understand the want to be great, I just wonder if sometimes it’s all over analyzed like everything else these days. In the end, a golf swing is still a golf swing.

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26 minutes ago, downlowkey said:

For those who haven’t played in high level competitions, you cannot comprehend how utterly alone a player can feel out there. A crisis of confidence, muscle tweak, homesickness, bad dream, etc, can be the difference between cashing a check and losing a pile. If you believe players don’t see benefit from every single individual they invite inside the ropes then you don’t understand the razor thin margins at the top of this game. And convenient as it may be for your argument, assuming those individuals within a player’s staff are “pulling them in different directions” is completely baseless. Modern purses/endorsement contracts create an entirely different cost/benefit analysis than the one facing players in the past. Also, in my opinion, Chamblee is just the worst.

For the record, my brother played basketball at a pretty high level.  Some of his AAU teammates were Antawn Jamison, Kenyan Weaks and Titus Ivory.  Based solely on our experiences, posse's can certainly be everything you mention.  They can also be "hangers-on" that ultimately pull the player in directions that shorten careers and empty wallets.  In the world of golf, Ty Tryon and Anthony Kim are pretty clear examples.  

It's all relative to who the posse is and what their ultimate agenda is.  And lets face it, everyone has an agenda!

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. In the end, a golf swing is still a golf swing.


While a god swing us a golf swing, as someone already pointed out, these individuals provide a comfort level and help the plate remain calm while millions of dollars are up for grabs in a weekly basis.

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7 minutes ago, Shankster said:

Not saying anyone’s way is better. I played horseshoes at the world championship level at 8-17 years old. I had me, myself and I. I was my swing coach, strength and conditioning coach, mental coach. I placed 1st once and had many runner ups, and third places.

Just wondering at what point does someone say enough is enough?

I understand the want to be great, I just wonder if sometimes it’s all over analyzed like everything else these days. In the end, a golf swing is still a golf swing.

My personal take, is swing coach and caddie. I would want my game, especially during a tournament, to be as simple as possible. Just go and hit the ball, just like a Saturday round with my buddies. If you have talent, you'll play better than those guys who get in their own head. 

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While a god swing us a golf swing, as someone already pointed out, these individuals provide a comfort level and help the plate remain calm while millions of dollars are up for grabs in a weekly basis.


I understand that part. Sometimes that doesn’t even work though. Golf is one of the most individual sports there is. Yes, you have your team around you, but you can’t rely on the backup to come in if something is off on Sunday. So that “team” can do what for you mid round besides your caddie, maybe pop in on a few holes? Not like they can huddle up and go over the play with 8 other people on each hole, they’d never finish.

I don’t disagree with having a team. Teams make things happen, I know, my job is 1000% team oriented, without every piece it doesn’t work.
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16 minutes ago, sixcat said:

For the record, my brother played basketball at a pretty high level.  Some of his AAU teammates were Antawn Jamison, Kenyan Weaks and Titus Ivory.  Based solely on our experiences, posse's can certainly be everything you mention.  They can also be "hangers-on" that ultimately pull the player in directions that shorten careers and empty wallets.  In the world of golf, Ty Tryon and Anthony Kim are pretty clear examples.  

It's all relative to who the posse is and what their ultimate agenda is.  And lets face it, everyone has an agenda!

Basketball players already have a coach, asst coaches, strength & conditioning coaches, PTs, sports psychologists, media handlers, etc supplied simply by virtue of their spot on the roster. So other than a personal manager, I’ve never understood the need for ball players to employ a large posse. With the legitimate counsel positions already supplied, one of the main responsibilities of subsequent posse hires often entails lining up fresh trim at the club. I think the pitfalls of pursuing that lifestyle are self evident. In general, viewed against pro basketball, players on the PGA Tour have very different hiring practices.

AK’s main hurdle was clinical depression (hopefully he’s doing better these days). In my opinion, Ty Tryon’s natural swing tendencies were never allowed to fully develop before the gurus got their hooks in him and started tinkering. In my opinion both are outliers rather than clear examples of entourage influenza.

And for what it’s worth, where the foundation of a relationship is concerned, I don’t believe “agenda” is the most accurate descriptor for individuals who truly want what’s best for their friend/spouse/employer.

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8 minutes ago, Shankster said:

While we are on the topic. Who has the largest entourage?

DJ?

I'm guessing the personal doc, dietician, personal chef, nanny and RV drivers (they work in shifts for long hauls) may move J Day to the front of that line.

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The thing to realize about some of this - at least as far as pre-round warm-ups go - is that a coach or agent isn't likely there just for one player. They're there for all their players and maybe (probably) aren't involved at all in the warm-up. They're just there to shoot the breeze, brown nose, and lose their lower jaw like the rest of us when these guy flush it ball after ball. The rest of the time, I think they're of far greater benefit than we often give them credit for. Think about how today's game is played and how much scrutiny and pressure players have to handle on a daily basis thanks to a rapidly changing news cycle via the press and social media. Guys today actually have to be athletic (mostly anyway), and they certainly don't want or need to be thinking about what the general public thinks about them because of something they said in a press conference after they were exhausted from a long day of grinding on the course. A player's entourage exists to allow them to think of golf and little else. They don't have to think much about workouts or diets because they have people that do it for them - the players just go to the gym and say, "tell me what to do". I think it's good for the players to give their "team" credit where credit is due. It doesn't take anything away from what the golfer has done for himself, it just shows respect for the people that helped him get there. I don't see anything wrong with that - it's better than the alternative of, "I'm the greatest because me..."

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30 minutes ago, downlowkey said:

Basketball players already have a coach, asst coaches, strength & conditioning coaches, PTs, sports psychologists, media handlers, etc supplied simply by virtue of their spot on the roster. So other than a personal manager, I’ve never understood the need for ball players to employ a large posse. With the legitimate counsel positions already supplied, one of the main responsibilities of subsequent posse hires often entails lining up fresh trim at the club. I think the pitfalls of pursuing that lifestyle are self evident. In general, viewed against pro basketball, players on the PGA Tour have very different hiring practices.

AK’s main hurdle was clinical depression (hopefully he’s doing better these days). In my opinion, Ty Tryon’s natural swing tendencies were never allowed to fully develop before the gurus got their hooks in him and started tinkering. In my opinion both are outliers rather than clear examples of entourage influenza.

And for what it’s worth, where the foundation of a relationship is concerned, I don’t believe “agenda” is the most accurate descriptor for individuals who truly want what’s best for their friend/spouse/employer.

Agreed, basketball and golf are two different crowds so to speak.  But the premise still remains consistent regardless of sport.  The more voices you have in your ear, the more clutter you have in your life.  The more clutter generally results in less consistency and more distraction.  How often do we hear Tour players discussing the utter chaos involved in getting tickets, travel, lodging, and other accommodations for everyone thinking they are entitled to something from the player?  

Personally, I believe this is why Rickie, Jordan and JT travel and stay together so much.  Strength in numbers for a multitude of reasons.

As for AK, clinical depression may have played a role but he was infamous for the posse he traveled with while still playing on Tour.  That posse was also infamous for the partying they did as well.  Tryon's coaching issues aside, his parents viewed him as a meal ticket.  Their "agenda" was to use their son in a twisted "get rich quick" scheme.  Similar stories for Patrick Reed and Sean O'Hair, although it didn't completely derail their careers before they were able to break away.  Unfortunately, too many parents try to live their unfulfilled childhood dreams through their children.  It's a sad sight but one that occurs far too often.

Which speaks directly to "agenda."  Those closest to us, family and friends in particular, are often the one's with the biggest agenda!  Family and friends can be the biggest support system as well.  I can't deny that.  But very few of us have the wherewithal to distinguish between the two, especially when we are teenagers!

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Coach to keep an eye on things...there’s not an amateur who wouldn’t mind having a coach in the practice range before a round.

manager is making sure the player has everything they need, etc 

Iirc start of tournament day the ones allowed on the range are limited to certain people. Even so having family and friends there before one tees off can help ease the nerves. 

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While we are on the topic. Who has the largest entourage?

 

DJ?

I think perhaps Paulina?

 

 

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22 hours ago, sixcat said:

Agreed, basketball and golf are two different crowds so to speak.  But the premise still remains consistent regardless of sport.  The more voices you have in your ear, the more clutter you have in your life.  The more clutter generally results in less consistency and more distraction.  How often do we hear Tour players discussing the utter chaos involved in getting tickets, travel, lodging, and other accommodations for everyone thinking they are entitled to something from the player?  

Personally, I believe this is why Rickie, Jordan and JT travel and stay together so much.  Strength in numbers for a multitude of reasons.

As for AK, clinical depression may have played a role but he was infamous for the posse he traveled with while still playing on Tour.  That posse was also infamous for the partying they did as well.  Tryon's coaching issues aside, his parents viewed him as a meal ticket.  Their "agenda" was to use their son in a twisted "get rich quick" scheme.  Similar stories for Patrick Reed and Sean O'Hair, although it didn't completely derail their careers before they were able to break away.  Unfortunately, too many parents try to live their unfulfilled childhood dreams through their children.  It's a sad sight but one that occurs far too often.

Which speaks directly to "agenda."  Those closest to us, family and friends in particular, are often the one's with the biggest agenda!  Family and friends can be the biggest support system as well.  I can't deny that.  But very few of us have the wherewithal to distinguish between the two, especially when we are teenagers!

I think career trajectory substantially impacts both the way support networks are assembled and cash flow is managed in those respective sports. Playing status on the tour offers potential long term returns but big money on the front end (signing bonus, contract guarantees, endorsements) is incredibly rare. A bunch of guys on tour have early career sponsors (debtors) that own a piece of their earnings, for life. On top of that, you’re on the road all the time, on your own dime. Don’t get me wrong, it can be a very cushy life, but the wad Phil carries around is the exception, not the rule. It’s becoming less so but it’s also the exception for players to come straight out of college and straight into full playing status. There is obviously a major income bump that comes following their first win but the average golf career (earnings) follows a normal distribution by comparison.

I’m not trying to say either formula is right or wrong but the difference seems to come down to cash flow and boundaries. With guaranteed income rare, it’s irresponsible for the overwhelming majority of tour players to keep a deep payroll. If you’re cutting someone a paycheck, that makes you the man. And the man needs to set proper boundaries. Maybe the guys on tour have better hiring practices or perhaps they do a little better job setting boundaries (defining scope of work). Perhaps that’s the result of a more (relatively) normalized career trajectory.

In any case, while each of these sports have outliers, the typically gradual build of a professional golf career seems to make golf the exception to the rule in  professional sporting. As @TR1PTIK eloquently conveyed, professional golfers tend to only hire new team members to handle increasing responsibilities. And they are employed solely to simplify and support in various specialized capacities. The dietician is not offering insight on Par 5 strategy, the nanny is not talking about swing plane, the manager isn’t talking about squat programs - they all play their roles so the pro need only show up, ready to play. A toxic entourage can bring down anyone but on the PGA Tour, I just don’t currently see much evidence to suggest more staff, more problems (poor play).

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"The most important shot in golf is the next one“ - Ben Hogan

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My point was missed by a mile. Rory was out there with his caddie working on his swing. No coach, no performance doodads, just him, the dirt, golf ball and golf clubs, and his caddie... he eventually went on to win the tournament.

He is really growing on me as a golfer and a role model for my kids for golf.

They obviously need their circle of people around them, much like soldiers do when they deploy.

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no performance doodads,.


I am assuming a performance doodad is a training aid. Most players skip those on tournament days during warmup, but they pretty much all use some kind of training aid during practice days. Putting greens are full of them and most use at least an alignment stick for full swing.

As for the group of people with the player, it also varies between tournament and practice days.

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

I am assuming a performance doodad is a training aid

I think Alan may have been referencing the launch monitors a lot of pros are utilizing on the practice tee these days. Like the one DJ regularly used to his detriment dialing in wedges while becoming #1 in the world. 

:cobra-small:______S9-1 Pro D - Matrix Ozik XCON 6 S
:cobra-small:______S9-1 Pro 15* - Matrix Ozik XCON 7 S
:nickent-small:________3DX 17* - Matrix Ozik Altus Hybrid SG
:Hogan:______ICON Black 4-PW - KBS Tour V S
:cleveland-small:__________588 RTG 49  RTX 52.10  56.12 - DG S400
BobbyGrace.png.1dc40002fcec0eee8603b71b3e706e89.png______Amazing Grace NYC Tour CS
:taylormade-small:_______'19 TP5X
(the preceding have all been gamer approved)

"The most important shot in golf is the next one“ - Ben Hogan

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Tiger was #1 in the world for several years without a launch monitor.

Players before tiger had their caddies shagging golf balls they were hitting. Just because someone was successful doing something a particular way doesn’t mean that is the right was for everyone or that it is better.

People rode horses before there were cars
People travelled on the ground before planes
People wrote letters before there was email.

I understand your point but in every occupation things change to provide more efficiency. Ultimately you have to do what it takes to make yourself successful and you have to follow your own path and not someone else’s.


Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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