Are modern golfers REALLY better GOLFERS?

[gaussman1]

To the OP I don't think today's player is worse exactly. He's just playing a different game. The ball itself is so drastically different than the ball from the 70s there's no way to fairly compare the two. This ball is designed to be mashed as hard and high as possible so that's what these guys do. I do readily admit that the accuracy that the guys from the 60s and 70s displayed w that golf ball was incredible.

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[SteddyGolf]

The game has changed so much it’s really hard to draw a comparison. What I will say is today’s Golfers have a higher level of fitness and therefore are better prepared for the grind of a Golf season. I think the top 10 from any era could play and be top 10 in any other area. However, as you move down the rankings the today’s Golfer number 50 in the world is much better than number 50 from the 90s, 80s, 70s, 60s, etc........

 

 

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[CarlH]

6 hours ago, PMookie said:

Take equipment and technology, and fitness, and all of that out: are they better GOLFERS?
I say no.


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I think Tiger is a much better golfer than the older golfers, including Jack.   His knowledge of his swing, his awareness of his hands and the club are phenomenal.  With regards to the other golfers, who knows what they could achieve if they grew up playing older equipment -- but they didn't have to.  To dismiss their abilities simply because they grew up with modern technology is  short sighted.  We'll never really know the answer to this hypothetical situation.  Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. 

 

[SeeMore Putts]

And he designs golf courses that reward length indiscriminately

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I dunno, the one near where I am (The Northern Bear) is a sand trap haven that punishes misses. I'm surprised I haven't seen lifeguards roaming around.

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[Will_Mac]

I think, like most past generations facing harder times, harder lives, people were generally more mature and tougher overall.

Tougher, but not any more capable. I think today's players, on average, are better athletes, more fit, and more capable.

Modern support, relative to era, with yesteryear toughness? Those are your generational greats.

[silver & black]

20 hours ago, PMookie said:

We’re conditioned to go right to technology, and fitness, and all of that. Folks, this is SIMPLY about who are better golfers? Course length doesn’t matter. Equipment, and TrackMan don’t matter. All things being equal (the only way to compare and contrast), are today’s players better GOLFERS?
Stop adding stuff in.
Are they better GOLFERS?
No swing coaches, none of it.

I say Lee Trevino was TEN TIMES the true GOLFER that these guys are today. Making the shots, the imagination, manipulation of the club, ability to GRIND, and change mid-round to swing the swing they have that day. It’s not even close.
But do you agree or disagree???


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Agree.

[RickyBobby_PR]

20 hours ago, PMookie said:

We’re conditioned to go right to technology, and fitness, and all of that. Folks, this is SIMPLY about who are better golfers? Course length doesn’t matter. Equipment, and TrackMan don’t matter. All things being equal (the only way to compare and contrast), are today’s players better GOLFERS?
Stop adding stuff in.
Are they better GOLFERS?
No swing coaches, none of it.

I say Lee Trevino was TEN TIMES the true GOLFER that these guys are today. Making the shots, the imagination, manipulation of the club, ability to GRIND, and change mid-round to swing the swing they have that day. It’s not even close.
But do you agree or disagree???


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You are comparing one of the greats agai st everyone today. I say tiger, dj, Rory, Phil, Vijay to name a few are better than Trevino and in a Trevino fan.  

Also the clubs and balls of today are designed to go straighter so technology plays a role in golfers getting the mid optimized setup for their specific swing.

While hitting shots and creativity is a nice aspect of golf and shoes the versatility of the golfer there are guys like Zach Johnson who plays a draw and rarely if ever hits anything else has won with a stock shot and a great wedge game. The object of the game is to get the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes. Doesnt matter if the players hits every shot imaginable or hits it dead straight every time. 

You have no idea if any of the past players would have used any of the technology, training, sports psychologists, etc that is available to the players. 

 

[TR1PTIK]

20 hours ago, PMookie said:

We’re conditioned to go right to technology, and fitness, and all of that. Folks, this is SIMPLY about who are better golfers? Course length doesn’t matter. Equipment, and TrackMan don’t matter. All things being equal (the only way to compare and contrast), are today’s players better GOLFERS?
Stop adding stuff in.
Are they better GOLFERS?
No swing coaches, none of it.

I say Lee Trevino was TEN TIMES the true GOLFER that these guys are today. Making the shots, the imagination, manipulation of the club, ability to GRIND, and change mid-round to swing the swing they have that day. It’s not even close.
But do you agree or disagree???


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You can't have a meaningful discussion like this without also taking into consideration the factors that make today's game and today's golfer different from those of the past. It's an apples to oranges comparison otherwise.

That said, I stand beside my first post. The modern golfer is typically a better athlete with better physical capability, but previous generations of golfers had a better "knowledge" of how to get the ball to do what they want. I placed the word knowledge in quotation marks because we know now that the science doesn't match up to what was previously believed (ball flight laws for instance). However, golfers from 15 - 20+ years ago were able to make the ball do incredible things because they learned to play a wide variety of shots through experimentation. The modern golfer learns to play different shots through similar means, but their starting point is completely different because they have hard data that says, "this is the formula to produce X shot".

P.S. I'm glad you didn't take offense to my Drill Sergeant remark. I was just busting your chops.

[Charli]

I feel this conversation happens in every sport. In my own opinion the players now are just all around better. Now specifically in golf no I don’t feel the players now are leaps and bounds better. Given the same equipment I think they’d be close. Are the fields deeper? I don’t know not that In touch with it. 

[EthanSterlingPrice]

Top to bottom yes I think they are, but there are plenty of players in their prime from other generations that I think could easily compete in today’s game especially with the modern equipment. The biggest gap in my opinion would probably be on the lower end of the pool. That being said I think a Hogan, Nelson, Nicklaus, Miller or Seve in their prime could be a top 10 player today but that’s the fun part about the speculation I guess...


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[revkev]

It’s very hard to make these comparisons for obvious reasons. Like all sports the game has changed.

Consider that Forest Gregg died today - he was an anchor on the Packer O line in the 60’s as a 249 lb tackle. The Rays have 4 guys who throw 100 on their pitching staff.

Jack averaged 270 off the tee in his prime. 291 leads the LPGA this season.

It’s just a different game.


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[revkev]

We’re conditioned to go right to technology, and fitness, and all of that. Folks, this is SIMPLY about who are better golfers? Course length doesn’t matter. Equipment, and TrackMan don’t matter. All things being equal (the only way to compare and contrast), are today’s players better GOLFERS?
Stop adding stuff in.
Are they better GOLFERS?
No swing coaches, none of it.

I say Lee Trevino was TEN TIMES the true GOLFER that these guys are today. Making the shots, the imagination, manipulation of the club, ability to GRIND, and change mid-round to swing the swing they have that day. It’s not even close.
But do you agree or disagree???


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Okay - I disagree - I will take the guy capable of hitting wedge into a par 5 over the guy who hit his 3 wood 230 every time. And today’s players have better short games and are better putters too.

That was easy

The game is different - the skills that Trevino cultivated were what was needed then. They would not translate to today’s game very well. That doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have gone out and cultivated what he needed to were he playing today.

The players today are light years better - that being said it’s because they have built on the foundations laid by those who came before them.


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[bens197]

I’ll take this angle. The golf Equipment has made it easier for older guys to hang.

 

When I was 20, It was my 7.5* Great Big Bertha with a Grafalloy ProLite 35 and a Titleist Tour Professional 90.

 

I’d carry it 280-290 easy.

 

Today I have a G400 LST with a slightly higher MOI than the GBB2 and I’m hitting a four piece ball designed to fly. I still carry it 280-290.

 

Each generation made the most of what they had because it’s all they knew.

 

 

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[revkev]

I’ll take this angle. The golf Equipment has made it easier for older guys to hang.
 
When I was 20, It was my 7.5* Great Big Bertha with a Grafalloy ProLite 35 and a Titleist Tour Professional 90.
 
I’d carry it 280-290 easy.
 
Today I have a G400 LST with a slightly higher MOI than the GBB2 and I’m hitting a four piece ball designed to fly. I still carry it 280-290.
 
Each generation made the most of what they had because it’s all they knew.
 
 
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I agree with all this but it seems as if the OP wants a straight guy forward head to head in which case there’s no comparison - Lee Trevino is not competing on the courses used today with his 240 yard drives no matter how well he works it and strikes it. 440 yards was a monster par 4 in his day. Now it’s driver wedge for everyone in the field.


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[Big money]

The question should be . How dominant would Nicklaus, Jones , Snead and Hogan have been with today’s tech ? This includes trackman and on course coaching and gps yardage books. 

Would Nicklaus have won 45 majors ?

[CarlH]

Given that he only won 18 majors, probably not

[deejaid]

They are just as good now as then and vice versa. If you take away all the tech and could measure just the swing speed and strike accuracy of both a modern Masters champion and a 1950’s Masters champion, I’m sure it would be very similar.

Now, add in the tech and Nicklaus hit it farther the Bobby Jones and Dustin Johnson hits it further than Jack. Were any of their strikes less precise than the others? Probably not. They all have grooved their swings with the club in their hand, be it hickory, blade, or speed foam players distance iron.

Some guys from the past had such tight games they could easily win today, others wouldn’t even get their tour card. And just as easily some guys today could go back and win with old tech while others wouldn’t stand a chance.


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[Charli]

What were jacks swing speeds? Is it comparable to today’s players

[deejaid]

What were jacks swing speeds? Is it comparable to today’s players

 

 

Here is an interesting article.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.pga.com/golf-instruction/golf-buzz/how-far-would-golfs-legends-drive-ball-using-modern-equipment

 

Most notable was the mention of Fred Couples at age 22 in the early 80’s averaging 267 yards off the tee. 27 years later at age 49 he was averaging 297.

 

I don’t know about you, but I was in better shape at 22 than I am at 42.

 

 

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[josmi15]

The question should be . How dominant would Nicklaus, Jones , Snead and Hogan have been with today’s tech ? This includes trackman and on course coaching and gps yardage books. 
Would Nicklaus have won 45 majors ?

But maybe the opposite would’ve happened. Perhaps Jack doesn’t win as many with others stepping up. Perhaps Trevino wins a few of those.


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[revkev]

What were jacks swing speeds? Is it comparable to today’s players

Equipment matters in regards to SS - so you can’t go by that. I know Frank Thomas did an extrapolation that had Nicklaus’ driver SS around 120 - comparable to today’s top players.

It is what it is - you could reverse it - maybe Bobby Jones was wrong and it’s the wise person who seeks advice when his game is going side ways rather than self corrects.

Top players are top players. Could Nicklaus have ended up with only 15 majors in another era or 22 at another time - perhaps - either way he’d be an all time great - like wise with Tiger


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[RickyBobby_PR]

On 4/13/2019 at 1:35 PM, deejaid said:

They are just as good now as then and vice versa. If you take away all the tech and could measure just the swing speed and strike accuracy of both a modern Masters champion and a 1950’s Masters champion, I’m sure it would be very similar.

Now, add in the tech and Nicklaus hit it farther the Bobby Jones and Dustin Johnson hits it further than Jack. Were any of their strikes less precise than the others? Probably not. They all have grooved their swings with the club in their hand, be it hickory, blade, or speed foam players distance iron.

Some guys from the past had such tight games they could easily win today, others wouldn’t even get their tour card. And just as easily some guys today could go back and win with old tech while others wouldn’t stand a chance.


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DJ hit a persimmon 300. These guys have amazing hand eye coordination and they don’t miss the sweet spot very often and if they do it isn’t by much 

[revkev]

DJ hit a persimmon 300. These guys have amazing hand eye coordination and they don’t miss the sweet spot very often and if they do it isn’t by much 

Using a modern ball - still amazing but the ball is at least half the equation. Jack hit a drive 340 with a persimmon driver and balata ball during the PGA last big drive contest a number of years back.

All touring pros have remarkable hand eye co-ordination.


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[perseveringgolfer]

Anyone remember Jack driving the 18th at St Andrews many many years ago. Anyone driving it now armed with modern tech, go faster drivers, increased ball speed etc etc is still a rarity.

[revkev]

Jack had the same attributes in his day that Tiger has in his and I’m sure Bobby Jones had in his.

 

He was long, he was a machine tee to green in fact and a great putter. Tiger has a better short game than Jack but Jack was a killer tee to green so much so that he didn’t work on his short game much.

 

 

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[revkev]

So there was another observation here if the OP doesn’t mind. It’s in some ways sparked by the DJ 300 yard drive with persimmon (but modern ball).

 

I don’t know if it was the course conditions or a characteristic of the balata golf ball but I can remember well struck shots taking huge hops in the Masters and US Open - I mean man sized hops when they hit the green. Yes those balls could be spun back but when conditions were firm no amount of spin helped.

 

I’ve been watching golf since the mid 60’s so I’ve seen a lot. I saw Snead, Palmer, Nicklaus, Trevino, Player, Watson, Seve play live. Heck I saw Her fan hitting balls at the range at a Senior tour event. Any guy winning 5 plus majors is remarkable. I don’t care when he did it or with what equipment.

 

I’m convicted that the 5 plus guys would find a way to win in any era - especially if the 5 plus was in 3 different majors.

 

Final answer :)

 

 

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