2019 Official Forum Member Review-Bettinardi Arm Lock Putter

[GB13]

9 hours ago, goaliewales14 said:

Great start so far guys!!  I've been really curious in arm lock putters for a while now to see what people think.  Here are a few questions I've got for you guys.

• Starting with just the putter head itself, have you noticed a forgiveness level on off-centered hits?
  • Is it close to the Envroll or Ping forgiveness if you've tested either brands
• Do you notice any difference in the roll versus your current gamers?
• How many grip positions have you guys tried to get "comfortable"?
  • Have any of you tried actually doing left hand low and locking the grip into your forearm at the top of the grip?
  • Do you think a certain grip style would have an easier transition into this type of putter

Great questions!

For forgiveness, this is not as forgiving as my PING, and definitely not as forgiving as an EVNROLL, although this is to be expected. This putter doesn't have any groove tech built into it, so if you miss the center, the speeds do vary. Honestly with the armlock, I find myself missing the center less, so I'm not as worried about it. 

 

It definately puts a more forward end over end roll on the ball than my PING did. I think this has more to do with the proper loft and more upward stroke/strike than anything else. 

 

I pretty much started with the "standard" armlock grip right away, it's what I'd seen most people use, and seemed like the easiest transistion. I did try the claw, but as I mentioned earlier, it made my right hand control the face too much. 

I'm not too sure what you are asking about the left hand low, but having the grip/shaft touching anywhere above the elbow is anchoring and illegal. As long as it isn't touching above the elbow, you could definately try it and it may work for you, but I still think the best two grips are convential and claw. 

The easiest grips to transistion are definately claw, and conventional, with those, you'd grip the putter the exact same way, just with the shaft up the forearm. I think any other grip (left hand low etc.) would be markedly harder to transistion from. It is taking me a long time to not have it feel weird with the right hand on the bottom. I'd trained myself that left hand low was normal, and then when I switched it, I'm having to retrain my brain all over again. 

[cnosil]

I am assuming that you will address this in your stage 2, but figured I would ask to make sure that you do.

In putting, ball position can be important. You all picked you specs based on some fitting approach. How did you go about getting fit for armlock, How much did ball position play into your specs, and if you moved your ball position, do you think it would it be beneficial to change the fitting to match you old ball position?

I ask because my ball position is based on how I see the line of the putt. Moving the ball would change what I see and I am not sure I want to make that kind of change.

[Berg Ryman]

Here's a question I'm wondering about, how's the grip working for you guys? I've always thought the ideal way to armlock would be DeChambeau style with a SS Flatso or the Jumbomax Armlock flat side up the forearm to feel more 'locked in' so to speak. With the more traditional Lamkin is anyone feeling that way yet or are you getting along just fine?

[CarlH]

11 hours ago, goaliewales14 said:

Great start so far guys!!  I've been really curious in arm lock putters for a while now to see what people think.  Here are a few questions I've got for you guys.

• Starting with just the putter head itself, have you noticed a forgiveness level on off-centered hits?
  • Is it close to the Envroll or Ping forgiveness if you've tested either brands
• Do you notice any difference in the roll versus your current gamers?
• How many grip positions have you guys tried to get "comfortable"?
  • Have any of you tried actually doing left hand low and locking the grip into your forearm at the top of the grip?
  • Do you think a certain grip style would have an easier transition into this type of putter

Can't compare forgiveness, but because you're locked against your arm, there's less smaller muscle movement that would allow the clubface to turn, so you should (in theory) have better strikes on the center

This putter rolls the ball very nicely.  It seems to start rolling immediately with little skid.  Again, I'm finding myself having cleaner strikes on the face.

I've tried conventional and a claw grip.  Went back to conventional.  The grip you describe would result in almost total control of the putter by the left arm, which I did give a shot and found more difficult to keep on a smooth stroke, but I've never liked the left hand low stroke.

[CarlH]

29 minutes ago, Berg Ryman said:

Here's a question I'm wondering about, how's the grip working for you guys? I've always thought the ideal way to armlock would be DeChambeau style with a SS Flatso or the Jumbomax Armlock flat side up the forearm to feel more 'locked in' so to speak. With the more traditional Lamkin is anyone feeling that way yet or are you getting along just fine?

I'm doing just fine with the standard grip.  It rests against my forearm without a lot of pressure.  If my hands do get flippy, I immediately feel that as the shaft moves off my forearm.  I suppose, like anything, grip would be a personal decision.

[KCLeo12]

Looking forward to getting out and playing a competitive round with this putter in the bag this weekend to see how it holds up.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[goaliewales14]

7 hours ago, GB13 said:

Great questions!

For forgiveness, this is not as forgiving as my PING, and definitely not as forgiving as an EVNROLL, although this is to be expected. This putter doesn't have any groove tech built into it, so if you miss the center, the speeds do vary. Honestly with the armlock, I find myself missing the center less, so I'm not as worried about it. 

 

It definately puts a more forward end over end roll on the ball than my PING did. I think this has more to do with the proper loft and more upward stroke/strike than anything else. 

 

I pretty much started with the "standard" armlock grip right away, it's what I'd seen most people use, and seemed like the easiest transistion. I did try the claw, but as I mentioned earlier, it made my right hand control the face too much. 

I'm not too sure what you are asking about the left hand low, but having the grip/shaft touching anywhere above the elbow is anchoring and illegal. As long as it isn't touching above the elbow, you could definately try it and it may work for you, but I still think the best two grips are convential and claw. 

The easiest grips to transistion are definately claw, and conventional, with those, you'd grip the putter the exact same way, just with the shaft up the forearm. I think any other grip (left hand low etc.) would be markedly harder to transistion from. It is taking me a long time to not have it feel weird with the right hand on the bottom. I'd trained myself that left hand low was normal, and then when I switched it, I'm having to retrain my brain all over again. 

That's interesting that the putter is helping you find the center more so you wouldn't really need the forgiveness as much!  I really like that!  

For the left hand low grip, I found this on the USGA's website if it helps explain what I was talking about.  I was thinking the one on the right.  Sorry I knew explaining that without a picture was probably a bad idea  

[CarlH]

Yeah, I tried the left hand low grip you show and found it very awkward.  The way I'm gripping it centers my elbows  against my body allowing me to rock my shoulders back and through.  With the grip you show, it was all my left side trying to control the stroke.  Not saying it can't be done and be effective, but rather it wasn't working for me.  But, as I said before, I was never comfortable with a left hand low for anything other than short putts. 

Maybe some of the other testers are using this method????

[GB13]

8 hours ago, cnosil said:

I am assuming that you will address this in your stage 2, but figured I would ask to make sure that you do.

In putting, ball position can be important. You all picked you specs based on some fitting approach. How did you go about getting fit for armlock, How much did ball position play into your specs, and if you moved your ball position, do you think it would it be beneficial to change the fitting to match you old ball position?

I ask because my ball position is based on how I see the line of the putt. Moving the ball would change what I see and I am not sure I want to make that kind of change.

My ball position was too far forward to begin with so moving back was a welcome change. I knew I wanted to move my ball position, at least to the middle of my stance, so I ordered a putter with more loft. This allowed me to use more forward press, which I really like doing. You could definately order specs that wouldn't require you to change you ball position, you'd just need a fitting. Since I was going in as a blank slate with no tendencies with the armlock technique, I'd just figure it out as I went. A fitting when I had no clue how to even hold an armlock putter just seemed like a waste of time. 

8 hours ago, Berg Ryman said:

Here's a question I'm wondering about, how's the grip working for you guys? I've always thought the ideal way to armlock would be DeChambeau style with a SS Flatso or the Jumbomax Armlock flat side up the forearm to feel more 'locked in' so to speak. With the more traditional Lamkin is anyone feeling that way yet or are you getting along just fine?

I have no problems with the Lamkin, I do think if I was building from scratch, I'd go with the JumboMax, it seems like it would "lock" the best. I do wish the Lamkin was an inch or 2 longer, it just seems like it should come a little farther up your forearm. 

2 hours ago, goaliewales14 said:

That's interesting that the putter is helping you find the center more so you wouldn't really need the forgiveness as much!  I really like that!  

For the left hand low grip, I found this on the USGA's website if it helps explain what I was talking about.  I was thinking the one on the right.  Sorry I knew explaining that without a picture was probably a bad idea  

Ahh, I gotcha now. I just tried it out inside, and it feels ridiculous to be honest. I'm not saying it couldn't work for you, it just doesn't work for me. And that is coming from a previously left hand low putter. I'd recommend it if you want to completely take you right hand out of it, and just use your left arm. I don't expect the left hand low grip to catch on, you might see it once in a blue moon. My current grip is the one on the left, with my right hand overlapped a little more over the left. 

 

 

[CarlH]

10 hours ago, cnosil said:

I am assuming that you will address this in your stage 2, but figured I would ask to make sure that you do.

In putting, ball position can be important. You all picked you specs based on some fitting approach. How did you go about getting fit for armlock, How much did ball position play into your specs, and if you moved your ball position, do you think it would it be beneficial to change the fitting to match you old ball position?

I ask because my ball position is based on how I see the line of the putt. Moving the ball would change what I see and I am not sure I want to make that kind of change.

I self fitted myself for this putter.  I took a regular putter, then measured up my arm to get the distance.  I was afraid of going too long so I ultimately settled on the standard length (in retrospect, bad, but not fatal, choice).  As long as I went standard length, I also didn't change the lie.  For the loft, I did consider my ball position.  I tend to play my ball at my sternum +- an inch.  Given that I knew this would forward press the shaft, I wanted a bit more loft to ensure that I had a dynamic loft near 3-4 degrees.  I went with 7 degree (standard is 5).  Now, regarding ball position, I have played it forward, back, and center and found the best results center with my eyes just inside the ball rather than directly over it.  For me, this allows me better control of the rocking of my arms as I can lock my arms along the sides of my body for stability.  It's been a trial and error approach, but it's becoming more and more comfortable and reliable.

[BADFanBoi Scotty]

Thinking that along with the armlocks, reviewers need to be taught the armlock technique specifically. Taken me a while to find a good technique that works better than the Evnroll I had.

[bens197]

For those of you who are participating I have one question.

What are your thoughts on the hands meeting at the end of the grip and top of the shaft? I haven’t seen one of these yet where the golfer has a majority of their hands on the grip? Is this by design?


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[CarlH]

5 hours ago, Green Sheep Productions said:

Thinking that along with the armlocks, reviewers need to be taught the armlock technique specifically. Taken me a while to find a good technique that works better than the Evnroll I had.

Yes, it's completely different feel that must be gotten used to in order to feel comfortable with the stroke.  Everyone that has tried my putter on the practice green could not figure out how to properly hold it until shown.

[CarlH]

1 hour ago, bens197 said:

For those of you who are participating I have one question.

What are your thoughts on the hands meeting at the end of the grip and top of the shaft? I haven’t seen one of these yet where the golfer has a majority of their hands on the grip? Is this by design?


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

It must be by design.  This particular putter has a 15 inch grip and, depending on how high up the forearm the grip reaches, it could present this issue.  In my case, I only rest it halfway up my arm instead of 2 inches below the elbow, and both hands are on the grip.

[downlowkey]

On 4/18/2019 at 9:06 PM, goaliewales14 said:

Great start so far guys!!  I've been really curious in arm lock putters for a while now to see what people think.  Here are a few questions I've got for you guys.

• Starting with just the putter head itself, have you noticed a forgiveness level on off-centered hits?
  • Is it close to the Envroll or Ping forgiveness if you've tested either brands
• Do you notice any difference in the roll versus your current gamers?
• How many grip positions have you guys tried to get "comfortable"?
  • Have any of you tried actually doing left hand low and locking the grip into your forearm at the top of the grip?
  • Do you think a certain grip style would have an easier transition into this type of putter

Not surprised in the least, but Thank You for the great questions @goaliewales14

It is far from the most forgiving putter I have ever put in my hands (but I have been a high-MOI chaser for over a decade). My most consistent miss thus far has actually been a hair thin and subsequently short.

This setup puts a very nice roll on the ball for me. But I think it’s mostly due to the effectively longer lever (putter head to shoulder blade) more than tech built into this mallet head.

On the subject of setup and comfortability, I’m a little different from the rest of the group. My normal grip immediately felt natural.

Because my specs were drawn from an Armlock + SAM Puttlab session, I was able to determine the exact length, lie and loft necessary to maintain my typical eye position. I simply set the head square to my line, set my eyes in their normal position (behind the ball) and the design makes the rest of the set up, paint-by-number simple. I think changes in feel from day-to-day can slightly alter the way you set up to a putt, but I think this design (when used correctly) removes a great deal of that potential variability.

In addition to my own extensive testing, being a regular fixture at the putting greens around town the past few weeks has given me the opportunity to let several others try it out. The tendencies I’ve noticed: folks with solid strokes absolutely love the feel and the others think it’s extremely weird and can’t wait to hand it back to me. The real takeaway from that... sometimes feeling weird = better. And a lot of people apparently are not willing to get better if it means feeling temporarily uncomfortable. For me personally, typical left hand low would be the toughest grip to resolve with this particular putter.

[bens197]

It must be by design.  This particular putter has a 15 inch grip and, depending on how high up the forearm the grip reaches, it could present this issue.  In my case, I only rest it halfway up my arm instead of 2 inches below the elbow, and both hands are on the grip.

Well then that’s good. Maybe it’s just me, but a majority of the guys I’ve seen using these seem to have a hand on the shaft rather than the grip.

Thanks for the follow up.

[downlowkey]

1 hour ago, bens197 said:

Well then that’s good. Maybe it’s just me, but a majority of the guys I’ve seen using these seem to have a hand on the shaft rather than the grip.

 

This is interesting. Have you seen guys using Bettinardi Armlocks specifically?

USGA regs specify “under elbow crease”. But the handle doesn’t have to reach nearly that high for the intended Armlock effect. Without actually seeing these individuals myself, this is a guess, but I’d wager they are trying to get the butt of the grip right up to the limit _or_ their putter length is too long for their particular setup tendencies.

If a golfer wanted to both have the grip go right up to the crease _and_ get both hands on it, the 15” grip that Bettinardi puts on the Armlock might be a stretch for some. I know longer versions are available from other grip companies.

[GB13]

4 hours ago, bens197 said:

For those of you who are participating I have one question.

What are your thoughts on the hands meeting at the end of the grip and top of the shaft? I haven’t seen one of these yet where the golfer has a majority of their hands on the grip? Is this by design?


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

I use a variation of a prayer grip where my right hand has probably 3-4 fingers of overlap over my left hand. This allows both hands to be on the grip, but for players that wouldn't find that comfortable, I think the grip should be a few inches longer. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by GB13

[GB13]

8 hours ago, Green Sheep Productions said:

Thinking that along with the armlocks, reviewers need to be taught the armlock technique specifically. Taken me a while to find a good technique that works better than the Evnroll I had.

While I think that would be beneficial for us, the goal is to test the putter like a normal consumer would. A normal consumer would be limited to possibly a fitting/lesson, and YouTube videos. For us to produce an accurate test we shouldn't receive preferantial treatment that other consumers wouldn't. It could definately skew our reviews. 

[bens197]

I use a variation of a prayer grip where my right hand has probably 3-4 fingers of overlap over my left hand. This allows both hands to be on the grip, but for players that wouldn't find that comfortable, I think the grip should be a few inches longer. 

And with that I think that’s where the variations are allowed to thrive. You’ll see grip styles that wouldn’t necessarily thrive with a traditional length putter. I can see what you’re doing and why it would work well.

As you progress through this write-up do you expect to try some different grips and stances?

[GB13]

Just now, bens197 said:

 

And with that I think that’s where the variations are allowed to thrive. You’ll see grip styles that wouldn’t necessarily thrive with a traditional length putter. I can see what you’re doing and why it would work well.

As you progress through this write-up do you expect to try some different grips and stances?

 

Yes, I definately plan on trying different grips, mainly the claw and convential, non-overlap grip. I've briefly tried both, and the claw didn't seem to work super well, and I just wasn't as confident with the convential. I do think convential would be my second choice, with practice, it could work pretty well for me. I'm not convinced I should ever putt with a claw grip, I tried it with a non-armlock putter last year, and it was a mess. 

I wasn't planning on trying different stances, but if you tell me what different stances you'd like me to test, I'd be happy to give it a shot. 

[bens197]

This is interesting. Have you seen guys using Bettinardi Armlocks specifically?
USGA regs specify “under elbow crease”. But the handle doesn’t have to reach nearly that high for the intended Armlock effect. Without actually seeing these individuals myself, this is a guess, but I’d wager they are trying to get the butt of the grip right up to the limit _or_ their putter length is too long for their particular setup tendencies.
If a golfer wanted to both have the grip go right up to the crease _and_ get both hands on it, the 15” grip that Bettinardi puts on the Armlock might be a stretch for some. I know longer versions are available from other companies.

This was not specific to one brand but since Betty’s seem to lead the way in arm locks, it could be just that.

Here’s just one example as a photo. What stuck out to me was how hands near the end of the grip embrace the the taper.

I can’t speak to the latter but I like your theory.





Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[bens197]

Yes, I definately plan on trying different grips, mainly the claw and convential, non-overlap grip. I've briefly tried both, and the claw didn't seem to work super well, and I just wasn't as confident with the convential. I do think convential would be my second choice, with practice, it could work pretty well for me. I'm not convinced I should ever putt with a claw grip, I tried it with a non-armlock putter last year, and it was a mess. 
I wasn't planning on trying different stances, but if you tell me what different stances you'd like me to test, I'd be happy to give it a shot. 

You do you brother. I was just curious to see if this would require you to change your address and or putting stance.

[GB13]

Just now, bens197 said:

 

You do you brother. I was just curious to see if this would require you to change your address and or putting stance.

 

Yeah, the only change at address was that I moved the ball back farther in my stance. I had already wanted to move the ball back in my stance, and add some forward press, so that worked out well. You could definately get specs that wouldn't require you to move the ball at all in your stance, you'd just need a proper fitting to determine what those are. 

I didn't need to make any change to my stance, my putting stance is fairly wide with a higher than normal amount of knee flex. If you get the right length, you shouldn't need to change your stance at all. 

[downlowkey]

51 minutes ago, bens197 said:

What stuck out to me was how hands near the end of the grip embrace the the taper.

Where my hands meet the grip is one of the puzzle pieces I was able to choose from my fitting. And I’m very thankful for it. One of the reasons I chose the shortest standard length option was because it put my hands on a larger section of the grip profile.

Had I gone one inch longer it would mean my hands start moving into the tapered section _or_ a change in my setup to the ball (ie - slightly raise the heel of the putter and stand closer/taller _or_ acquiesce to an adjusted eye position).

Edit: adjusting the lie angle in my specs could have solved the the heel up dilemma mentioned above but for me the hypothesis of this Armlock integration centers on whether it can be adopted without any unreasonable adjustment to my normal stroke tendencies and preferred setup.

[artful_golfer]

On 4/15/2019 at 2:01 PM, downlowkey said:

 

 

I love watching you putt.

[GB13]

Just a quick update to my progress, I'm still struggling to feel completely comfortable, and be consistent. Consistency is one of the main things I'd like this putter to give me and it hasn't yet, although I'm probably just being impatient. This putter is showing flashes of brilliance, and flashes of darkness. For example, my round yesterday, I had 24 putts and putted lights out. Today, I had 37 putts (no, not a typo), and couldn't make anything outside 2 inches. It's a work in progress, but I am moving in the right direction. 

[goaliewales14]

3 hours ago, GB13 said:

Just a quick update to my progress, I'm still struggling to feel completely comfortable, and be consistent. Consistency is one of the main things I'd like this putter to give me and it hasn't yet, although I'm probably just being impatient. This putter is showing flashes of brilliance, and flashes of darkness. For example, my round yesterday, I had 24 putts and putted lights out. Today, I had 37 putts (no, not a typo), and couldn't make anything outside 2 inches. It's a work in progress, but I am moving in the right direction. 

That's crazy!  I think we blame it on the pin locations and not the putter.   It definitely seems to have a good learning curve when switching to these putters.  Keep up the hard work!  Looks like you're almost there!

[jayjay0808]

Boys I am loving this so far! Really one of the products I was very interested in seeing the results with. It is great to hear the journey from having to get comfortable with such a different way to approach putting. I look forward  to seeing if any of you will completely adopt this style after the testing period!

[BADFanBoi Scotty]

Couple of other variations that I managed with my SS28 Armlock if those trialling are fiddlers. Just like to acknowledge @CarlH first and his comment that a goal could be to trial these putters 'off the shelf'.

1) Imitated DeChambeau with getting a thicker 17" grip and rotating it so the flat is testing against your forearm. I found a nice cheap Superstroke 1.3 17" to play with, feels a lot more comfortable. 

2) Counterweight. Ended up adding 40g of tungsten powder to the butt end. Felt had more control of the head when the CoG was about 1/4 of the way up. This was the #1 improvement for distance control. 

3) Swapped the shaft for a UST Frequency putter shaft that was lying around the local pro shop discarded. Had to cut it to maintain the dynamic loft. Felt much softer.