Is golf dividing even more

[Big money]

I’m noticing a new division happening in golf. More financially strapped clubs are opening up their doors to almost anyone now a days. They are almost begging people to join. Many who are joining are people you were  never considered ‘country club material’ . Which I find almost comical in a way. At one point in many country clubs lucrative pasts. Many of these new members would be looked down on or ridiculed. Now they are begging for them to join and help a losing cause. It’s almost a two faced type of a move. At one juncture it was a “you don’t belong and will never belong here mentality”. Now it is a “ please join, we will take anyone”. I so look forward to the day when local one time exclusive clubs will have big hair bands or heavy death metal playing at their social functions. As other old fart members scoff at what is happening (or will be). I personally find this a hoot and love the much needed change 

[Big money]

Hahahah.That was a good read.And I totally agree.Ive been told that this is really upsetting some of the long term members of these clubs.And many had long drawn out arguments why they shouldn’t be allowing everyone in to their inner sanctums.But when the ship is sinking.You got to do what you got to do.Believe me, there will be some real culture clashes for many at these places.Its not a question if it is good for the game.Its a last chance effort to keep these places above the red

Imagine Mr and Mrs Green rocking out to a slayer cover band.After downing a few fifties 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Big money

[revkev]

Alright I will bite - with all due respect to the poster I think this is an unfair characterization of the atmosphere at the overwhelming number of clubs and club members.

I’ve been around private clubs, many of which still thrive, as a caddy, a guest a regular member and a clergy member. I also frequent a muni and was a member at what would be termed a semi private club on an other occasion.

I am here to report that the common thing between each place was that I met engaging kind people who shared my passion for golf under each circumstance. I’ve also met a rare person or two whom I didn’t care to associate with.

For every few and far between so called snob at a club I’ve met an equal or greater number of few and far betweens at munis who suffer from jealously of the country club set.

I wouldn’t term the opening up of some clubs, “two faced,” I’d call it adapting to the current business climate. That’s something that any successful business does.


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[bens197]

This happened in 2006-2012 in several pockets across the Nation.  Clubs are a product of their environment and when discretionary income tightens up, clubs need to adapt or die.  

 

[Big money]

25 minutes ago, revkev said:

Alright I will bite - with all due respect to the poster I think this is an unfair characterization of the atmosphere at the overwhelming number of clubs and club members.

I’ve been around private clubs, many of which still thrive, as a caddy, a guest a regular member and a clergy member. I also frequent a muni and was a member at what would be termed a semi private club on an other occasion.

I am here to report that the common thing between each place was that I met engaging kind people who shared my passion for golf under each circumstance. I’ve also met a rare person or two whom I didn’t care to associate with.

For every few and far between so called snob at a club I’ve met an equal or greater number of few and far betweens at munis who suffer from jealously of the country club set.

I wouldn’t term the opening up of some clubs, “two faced,” I’d call it adapting to the current business climate. That’s something that any successful business does.


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I agree with Rev.But I’m a member at a club that this is happening.And I’m not one who is happy about it.My biggest fear is this style of member showing up in the AM.Teeing off behind me and my foursome of close friends.Or a whole parking lot of low riders.Golf is open to anyone imho.And love the idea of expanding the game .But I’ve been a member for 40 plus years at my club.And enjoy it the way it was.Not how it might be

 

[PlaidJacket]

I appreciate Rev's comment. I started one earlier but deleted it. 

Have a nice day everyone. 

 

 

[Kenny B]

We have only one private club here in my area, and it is doing just fine.  Twenty years ago we had another country club that went semi-private; membership but the public was welcome to play golf but no other activities or access to dining facilities.  It's doing OK too.  

On my recent trip to Phoenix, I noticed public access to clubs that had been private in the past.  I played at one nice club, and ate at their Sunday brunch.  Food was fabulous!  The people were very nice, and I would be happy to play there again.  I'm pretty sure their membership requirements are similar to what they once were, but they have opted to allow public play to increase revenue so the members can still enjoy their benefits without lowering membership standards.  I don't have a problem with that.

[B81Smith]

I see and hear about this happening.  As a kid who grew up at a highly exclusive country club and now as a grown man is barely able to afford local muni fees and constantly look for deals or coupons to continue my habit - I feel I can relate to both sides.

For the most part I feel if you can afford the dues and respect the course, club, its rules, by laws and handle yourself like a decent human being - you should be allowed to join.  That's who I am.  I have clubs calling me, emailing me, sending me stuff on facebook, etc all trying to get me to join - I tell them flat out - I can afford about 100/month and since they're all about 1000/month and up I'll have to holler at them after my trust fund kicks in LOL.

It is annoying though because yes I want to join so bad but just cannot afford it any way short of selling an organ.

I do believe we have plenty of clubs out there who cater to the exclusive ultra high end client.  The ones with private jet travel - you know the types.  They belong to 3 or 4 private clubs around the USA.  Sometimes they only make it to one a few times a year, staying on property, bringing clients or friends for a few days of play.  Usually hailing from NYC or a posh place on the west coast - those are the guys who can command the 'we don't want your kind here' type of attitude.  BUT if you're a no name, we haven't heard of ya, not rated on anything type of private country club you must take what you can get and I think that's a good thing.  I think its a good thing they're kinda loosing their asses because we have too many private courses by me.  WAY too many - would I love to play them - you bet!   I'm in the Chicagoland area and believe me its a minimum 50/round to play a crap muni, yes deals can be found for 25 or 35 and those are the courses I play! I have played some of the most exclusive clubs (not in this area though) and can attest if you look the part you will be treated with respect and kindness.  I'm not black or brown though and I'd bet if I was I would've had a different experience at courses like Firestone or Sharon Golf Club, Medinah, etc.

 

I know some things I've said will be met with 'I don't think so' or controversial issues but I speak the unbiased truth.  If it hurts your feelings I can't help how you feel but its true that many people of color don't feel welcome at many places but things are changing and change is good.  Its not like Roger Dangerfield bought bushwood country club and made it a hockey rink and pin wheels, etc. LOL  Come on folks - just because the faces of membership don't look like you - ITS OKAY and things are going to be just fine even if low riders fill the parking lots, hoppties rocking hiphop music blaring from the subs - do they pay on time, do their checks cash, do they follow the rules and respect others, tip when appropriate, etc. - That is what matters - being a good human being and a responsible golfer.

 

[DiscipleofPenick]

It's interesting but I can't tell you how many courses we've lost and private clubs turned public since 2008. It's disheartening, but the courses that have adapted thrive. The rest are strip malls and condos.

Take Dead Aim

[deejaid]

I’m a member of a private club. I am a middle age white male. I am married to an Asian woman. I grew up in low income housing but now have a mortgage. We both drive Honda’s. I play guitar and can rip through Scorpions tunes. I enjoy cannabis as my smoke of choice.

Now, do I fit in at a Country Club? Yes, because on the course I respect the game. Whether others at the club come for similar or different backgrounds, have differing political or religious points of view, it’s all good. I hope our shared love of the game will allow us to enjoy our club together.

And if not, I’ll smoke em out on the 19th hole and see the real them


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[tony@CIC]

1 hour ago, revkev said:

I wouldn’t term the opening up of some clubs, “two faced,” I’d call it adapting to the current business climate. That’s something that any successful business does.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

I'm with Rev on this - as a business one must adapt or perish. 

As a boater and having been a member of several clubs in different locations, I find a wide disparity in the Club's management capability both to serve it's current membership as well as foretell future needs. This is especially true of equity clubs in both boating and golf. In equity clubs (where you buy into the membership), the head of the club is there for a year - many times it's the biggest management responsibility they've ever had. This happened at our last yacht club, where the Commodore (aka President) of the club ramrodded through a number of capital projects he favored - after all this was "his" year. As a result there was a large debt and the club had to  open up to non equity membership and with greatly reduced monthly fees. The result was a fleeing of the members who fully supported the Club. 

Fast forward to today - we belong to a club (which by the way has very reasonable due/fees) that is professionally run, with strong business ethics, exceptional customer service  and a no BS policy. You want to misbehave or harass others - goodbye! There is a waiting list for this very family oriented club.  

 

 

[Charli]

Anyone can fit into a country club. It’s about etiquette. I don’t care what you do outside of the club. Deal drugs to pay for your membership what do I care as long as your dressed and act appropriately I’m good with it. Don’t act or look like an idiot and you won’t be treated as such

[DiscipleofPenick]

This season the local USGA branch is opening the country club tourney circuit and play days to anyone with an official handicap. Should be eye opening for both sides.

Take Dead Aim

[PlaidJacket]

I don't see how the USGA can do that. They don't control private clubs. Unless there was "collusion". LOL

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

This season the local USGA branch is opening the country club tourney circuit and play days to anyone with an official handicap. Should be eye opening for both sides.

Take Dead Aim
 

 

12 minutes ago, PlaidJacket said:

I don't see how the USGA can do that. They don't control private clubs. Unless there was "collusion". LOL

I think it's at the state level.  Our WSGA has been doing this for a few years; days at private clubs that anyone can play.  I haven't done it yet, but I think they book the course and players have to sign up in advance.  If you have several players, you can request a specific pairing.  

[CarlH]

Neither the PGA nor the USGA can make demands on who can play on private courses.  If it is occurring, it is because the local PGA chapter has worked with the private clubs to provide these opportunities.  Most clubs are willing to participate in these endeavors on a limited basis because it's good for the game and good for the club.  The private clubs want to allow access to their clubs for potential members, but not at the expense of hurting the membership....it's a very fine line.  I'm a member of a private club and we often have non-club tournaments open to the public, club sponsored events that allow non members to participate, and other occasions.  These are generally, but not always, OGA sponsored.  Guests are always welcome at the club when accompanied by a member, but it's limited to how often one may play per month if they live within the local area radius.

 

[DiscipleofPenick]

I think it's at the state level.  Our WSGA has been doing this for a few years; days at private clubs that anyone can play.  I haven't done it yet, but I think they book the course and players have to sign up in advance.  If you have several players, you can request a specific pairing.  

Thanks@Kenny B you put it better than I did. NOGA (Northern Ohio) runs the interclub tourneys for the country clubs and up till this season you had to be a member of one of the private clubs to play. Now they're open to anyone with a USGA index. I'm looking forward to playing.

Take Dead Aim

[sp0rtsfan86]

Going back 5-6 years ago my home course required you to be a member to play in the tournament. Now it's anyone who has a county membership. There was no loyalty program, now it's expanding times and locations.

Meanwhile, courses are closing near me in Indiana. I can't speak to the private clubs as I joined a public/sort of semi-private set up but I would imagine those clubs are also feeling the hurt. I will say this, golf needs to figure out how to turn the people who play 1-2 a year into addicts. Especially those who are younger. I don't see it fully as a stuffy crowd, I see this as more of an all over problem where golf needs to become more popular.

[michaelshah]

Bump

[BostonSal]

On 5/10/2019 at 9:19 AM, Big money said:

I’m noticing a new division happening in golf. More financially strapped clubs are opening up their doors to almost anyone now a days. They are almost begging people to join. Many who are joining are people you were  never considered ‘country club material’ . Which I find almost comical in a way. At one point in many country clubs lucrative pasts. Many of these new members would be looked down on or ridiculed. Now they are begging for them to join and help a losing cause. It’s almost a two faced type of a move. At one juncture it was a “you don’t belong and will never belong here mentality”. Now it is a “ please join, we will take anyone”. I so look forward to the day when local one time exclusive clubs will have big hair bands or heavy death metal playing at their social functions. As other old fart members scoff at what is happening (or will be). I personally find this a hoot and love the much needed change 

I think that's there's a significant difference between member equity private clubs and corporate owned private clubs.

My own club, which opened 115 years ago, began as the former, of course.

I would never have gotten past the membership committee back in those Brahmin days.  

The original club went under in the early seventies.   It's been a corporate owned club for many years now.  If there's an opening in the membership and your check clears, you're in as far as I can see.   No huge initiation.  No assessments.  And a beautiful Donald Ross course that's been completely restored.  I have nothing to complain about.

[BostonSal]

3 minutes ago, jensenak said:

I think the prestige of golf was initially overstated. Why has privileged society come to think of golf as a game only for the rich?

VERY easy to explain if you live near a major metropolitan area  as I do.

You've got 150 acres of golf course.   Manicuring 150 acres for golf is hideously expensive, especially in a non-right-to-work state.

Do you have any idea what a developer will pay to convert that land to house lots?  The number is staggering.

An hour north in New Hampshire, they converted a famous, 100+ year old thoroughbred racing track  to residential and commercial property for gazillions of dollars.  That's one hour NORTH of Boston, not just outside of town.

It takes a very good reason to keep  a golf course a golf course.

It's widely assumed that our club, not member owned, is a laundromat for revenues accrued elsewhere.

Ask me if I care.  I love it here.  Somebody like myself shouldn't be able to afford a club like this.

 

If you live in a less densely populated area, it's a whole different story.

[BIG STU]

On 10/7/2021 at 3:43 PM, BostonSal said:

I think that's there's a significant difference between member equity private clubs and corporate owned private clubs.

My own club, which opened 115 years ago, began as the former, of course.

I would never have gotten past the membership committee back in those Brahmin days.  

The original club went under in the early seventies.   It's been a corporate owned club for many years now.  If there's an opening in the membership and your check clears, you're in as far as I can see.   No huge initiation.  No assessments.  And a beautiful Donald Ross course that's been completely restored.  I have nothing to complain about.

I absolutely love any Donald Ross course

[DiscipleofPenick]

2 hours ago, BIG STU said:

I absolutely love any Donald Ross course

2nd!! Luckily there a public one in CLE, just made that best munis in the US lost that came out. Columbus has a public one as well, and in Youngstown there's 36 holes of Ross run by their metroparks.

[BIG STU]

4 hours ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

2nd!! Luckily there a public one in CLE, just made that best munis in the US lost that came out. Columbus has a public one as well, and in Youngstown there's 36 holes of Ross run by their metroparks.

There are none in the local area of the Grand Strand area of SC where I have lived the last 21 years but in NC where I am from and grew up in there are quite a few-- And then you have some muni type Ross Copy courses as I call them.

[Tom the Golf Nut]

I live in a rural area and belong to a private club. The challenges for a club like this to survive is always a topic of discussion.  Even though it is a course designed by a famous architect it still struggles. I have been a member for 16 years and during a membership meeting 12 years ago they were looking for ideas to add revenue. I opened my mouth and suggested we open the course to the public on Mondays for golf only as we are normally closed on Monday. If looks could kill. I didnt make many friends. Shot down hard. Long standing members are reluctant to change. They want to keep things as they have been in the past.  Well 10 years later we are open to the public for golf on Mondays. 

Times change and courses have to do what they have to to survive. I even have seen the dress codes change over these years. In the clubs dress code was: Shirts must be tucked in, collard shirts must be worn, a hats brim must face forward, no jeans, no tee shirts, shorts must be to the knee, no cargo shorts. Those were the rules. You didn't like it you could go elsewhere. Well all those rules are not enforced any longer except maybe the tee shirt. Initiation fees have gone away. Now as long as you pay your monthly dues your good.

My only gripe is for the most part members respect the course and repaired divots, ball mark's, and rake the trap when done. Playing in the afternoon on a Monday you can see that the course was not left as they found it in the morning. Either they don’t care or they figured the grounds crew will clean up after them tomorrow morning.

 

[Rhinosparky]

My how the times have changed.  2019 was when the OP started this thread.  Now you are lucky if you can even get a tee time at most public courses here in this state with its crazy population boom.  (Thanks a lot California)

I was able to join a Country Club this year the price for the initiation fee doubled by the time I found a willing party to sell a equity membership.  Now it has even went up from there.  

I do however think this surge in popularity is not sustainable.  To many other things for people to do have opened back up and people will go back to those.  I hope the golf world keeps going strong because someday I may want to sell my membership when I'm not able to swing a club. 

[Kenny B]

4 minutes ago, Rhinosparky said:

My how the times have changed.  2019 was when the OP started this thread.  Now you are lucky if you can even get a tee time at most public courses here in this state with its crazy population boom.  (Thanks a lot California)

I was able to join a Country Club this year the price for the initiation fee doubled by the time I found a willing party to sell a equity membership.  Now it has even went up from there.  

I do however think this surge in popularity is not sustainable.  To many other things for people to do have opened back up and people will go back to those.  I hope the golf world keeps going strong because someday I may want to sell my membership when I'm not able to swing a club. 

It's the same here.  In 2019 I could walk onto our muni after 10am and play as a single any weekday until leagues started around 3pm.  Since covid hit, I have to have a tee time any day, all day as a member.

I talked to our pro at our Christmas party and he is pretty certain that the level of play will drop off in 2022.  We'll see.

[dlow206]

I'm spoiled. I get my same tee time or close to same time every Sunday at my home club.

I'm currently on vacation right now and called to make a same day tee time for a par 3 9 hole course and there were no tee times available. I should have expected that, but again, i'm spoiled 

[BostonSal]

On 11/22/2021 at 2:53 PM, DiscipleofPenick said:

2nd!! Luckily there a public one in CLE, just made that best munis in the US lost that came out. Columbus has a public one as well, and in Youngstown there's 36 holes of Ross run by their metroparks.

In our area, the vast majority of public green fee courses are privately owned, not munis. We have very few actual munis.

We do have one outstanding muni, however, the George Wright, right within Boston's city limits, that's a Donald Ross creation.

I could be wrong, but I think it was a WPA Project as part of thr National Recovery Act.  

For a while it fell into disrepair but it's back to its old self now...and hard to get on.