Indian/arrow

[revkev 25,201]

 

I just had an interesting discussion with some friends about the ball test. One has abandoned the chrome soft that he’ gamed last year (his handicap went up BTW), another just received his 6 dozen MTB black x’s. The fourth thinks it really doesn’t matter and will continue to play whatever he finds and throws in his bag.

 

So I’m wondering what you guys think - how much of the equation is the Indian and how much of it is the arrow? For the purpose of this discussion arose will include clubs and balls. Lessons and/or fitness plans and practice all impact the Indian

 

What’s more important having the proper ball and clubs or improving yourself as a player?

 

 

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[THEZIPR23 6,383]

I think it depends on the level of improvement you are looking for and what time investment you are willing to put in. 

[PlaidJacket 7,737]

I thinking playing a good ball (for me a urethane) is important for many reasons. Some reasons are simply playing what you like or feels good to you. For most of us I don't think playing the highest rated most expensive ball by anyone is going to make you a better player or lower your handicap or scores. Certainly not amateurs like us forum members. Admittedly I don't want to play a Pinnacle Gold either or some other such rock. But, I know for a fact that if I play $4 ball (PV1) vs. a $2 ball (MGC4) my game doesn't suffer one bit. My game suffers when I - the indian play poorly - meaning ball striking. Has nothing to do with the ball - arrow. Never has.

I've mentioned many times in the forum that I'll play a variety of balls. With equal results. In the end it always boils down to me. The swinger of the club. 

[LeftyRM7 292]

I believe the Indian is always the biggest variable by a wide margin. That’s not to say equipment doesn’t matter, but if you’re not doing your part, none of it really matters in the end. Equipment can help and make you better, no doubt, but you are in control of that equipment. As far as the ball goes, I loved the ball test. I feel like it gives me more information than I had before to pick a ball that lines up with my needs. I think the best thing an average weekend warrior like myself, and most people, can do is pick a ball they like and stick with it. You get used to it’s tendencies, good and bad, so you know what to expect. Nothing worse than hitting a good shot and being left scratching your head trying to figure out why it didn’t react the way you thought.


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[mr.hicksta 3,397]

Oh it's largely on the Indian. I think if a player has a consistent overall game, then they're going to find a way to score regardless of what they're playing. Sure there will be differences in distances and such with different gear, but ultimately I think being a solid player is where success on the golf course starts. 

[RickyBobby_PR 9,261]

It’s a combo of both. The player will struggle if playing ill fitted equipment and will normally develop bad habits trying to fit swing/game to the bad equipment. With that said the player with good fundamentals can take advantage of the proper fitted gear and will be better and more consistent 

[CarlH 7,959]

I think a lot of it depends on the level of player we're discussing.  A good player with solid and repeatable fundamentals will obviously see better benefits by a ball change than would a player who hooks one drive and slices the next one.  However, I believe even a higher handicap player will see good results by shifting to one ball that he likes and sticking with that ball, even if it isn't the "ideal perfect" ball available.

[cnosil 24,460]

I think the equipment can help to add a little consistency,  but it is the overall skill of the player that is the biggest influence.   I can switch equipment (clubs or balls) and see some improvement or degradation in areas  but my scores won't vary that much.   I am not a huge believer in chasing specific numbers from equipment but finding the equipment that will benefit me.  Probably the area I focus on this the least is balls.  I am a find it play it player when it comes to balls.  I am selective on the type of balls I keep, but I haven't bought a new ball in many years and don't think I would see sudden improvements with a particular ball.   My issues are generally related to swing and contact that would only be improved by lessons.   The equipment would probably only have a large impact if it was grossly misfit.  

[chisag 17,742]

... Great topic Rev and no easy answer. I am with RickyBobby and think it is a combination of both. If you are a high index, over the top driver of the ball, producing a weak slice off the tee and playing a standard driver with too stiff of a shaft your arrow is making it extremely difficult. A softer shaft with a closed face, heel weighted draw biased driver can really help the Indian in this scenario. I could give plenty of other examples where the same would be true. 

... That said, I had students that really improved with lessons and others that improved a little and a few that never really improved. I think improving always trumps buying equipment IF you are wiling to put in the effort/time to make changes to improve. Surprisingly many are not and that is where equipment can make a difference. And of course the amount of people out there with decent swings that have never even heard of a golf forum and have very ill fitting equipment is just staggering. For them, equipment will most likely make as much or more of a difference than lessons.  

[Wedgie 5,189]

I think it is mostly Indian but if anyone followed my Launcher HB iron testing let me summarize. I never practice, just play. Handicap hovered between 12-15 for years. I was buying new irons every year blaming the arrows. Enter half ass fitted Launchers and handicap drops to 8.3. After fighting elbow pain wife thinks Launchers with stock graphite are the answer so I started gaming them and handicap is working it’s way right back up. My elbows feel great but the shafts are too light for me and my contact is all over the face. Got the steel Launchers out and shot my best round of the year.

My point is finding the right equipment really helps but without practice I have peaked as a golfer.


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[chisag 17,742]

41 minutes ago, Wedgie said:

I think it is mostly Indian but if anyone followed my Launcher HB iron testing let me summarize. I never practice, just play. Handicap hovered between 12-15 for years. I was buying new irons every year blaming the arrows. Enter half ass fitted Launchers and handicap drops to 8.3. After fighting elbow pain wife thinks Launchers with stock graphite are the answer so I started gaming them and handicap is working it’s way right back up. My elbows feel great but the shafts are too light for me and my contact is all over the face. Got the steel Launchers out and shot my best round of the year.

My point is finding the right equipment really helps but without practice I have peaked as a golfer.

 

... I am sure you know this Wedgie, but just in case, there are plenty of really good mid and heavy weight graphite shafts available for irons you could put in those Launchers. Recoil 95/110's, Steelfiber 95 and 110's as well as Aldila VS Proto 100's and NV 105's to name a few. 

[Wedgie 5,189]

 

... I am sure you know this Wedgie, but just in case, there are plenty of really good mid and heavy weight graphite shafts available for irons you could put in those Launchers. Recoil 95/110's, Steelfiber 95 and 110's as well as Aldila VS Proto 100's and NV 105's to name a few. 

 

I am aware but finding a place where I can hit them has been the challenge. Screwing around with the Wilson D7 irons I found the KBS Tour 105 in stiff to be the best fit. Heavier weight seems to really help with my swing path and stiff helps with my quick transition.

 

The lighter shaft I get the more right the ball seems to go. I found a set of Mizunos, can’t remember which one, but they had Recoil 95s in them and the shaft seemed to be too much for me. Kinda strange huh! I have hit the D7s with the Recoil 460 and they felt awesome but I had no control.

 

 

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[chisag 17,742]

... I started out with NV 130 Tour's many years ago and they were a hair too stout of a shaft for me but playable and cured my elbow problems. When Aldila came out with the NV 105 Pro's I was all in. The VS Proto 100's were equally good so I kept going and installed some VS Proto 85's and I too started making contact all over the face because they were just too light. 95gms seems to be my weight limit and I play them at D4 so they feel a little heavier than they really are. OEM's have recognized many find the stock 65gm and lighter shafts do not fit average golfers so there are a lot of 75-85 gm shafts installed as stock that are still too light for the better player or stronger swinger/hitter. It can be challenging to find 95/110/125 graphite shafts in irons to demo but they are just as good or even better in some instances, than comparable steel shafts but are much easier on elbows, shoulders and backs. I have been playing graphite in my irons for about 20 years now. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by chisag

[Wedgie 5,189]

... I started out with NV 130 Tour's many years ago and they were a hair too stout of a shaft for me but playable and cured my elbow problems. When Aldila came out with the NV 105 Pro's I was all in. The VS Proto 100's were equally good so I kept going and installed some VS Proto 85's and I too started making contact all over the face because they were just too light. 95gms seems to be my weight limit and I play them at D4 so they feel a little heavier than they really are. OEM's have recognized many find the stock 65gm and lighter shafts do not fit average golfers so there are a lot of 75-85 gm shafts installed as stock that are still too light for the better player or stronger winger/hitter. It can be challenging to find 95/110/125 graphite shafts in irons to demo but they are just as good or even better in some instances, than comparable steel shafts. 

Thank you for the input. Rumor has it that there will be a Launcher replacement coming soon and when that happens I’ll try to find a fitter that can put me in the right graphite shaft. It may be a swing weight issue, I just don’t know.


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[cksurfdude 10,435]

Assuming .. as others have mentioned .. that the equipment is not horribly ill-fitting and all wrong for the player, then .. imho .. it's unquestionably, undeniably, inarguably, absolutely the good ole Indian.

Yes, I agree a good player may play even better with "better" and better-fit equipment .. including the golf ball. And a not-so-good player may find the game a bit easier with the "right" equipment.

But desire and motivation trump all. (And lots and lots of dedicated practice.)

Some of you may have heard the name Kelly Slater? Multiple time World champion surfer, he is both the youngest and the oldest to have won the World title ... along with having won it the most number of times plus 5 consecutive years in a row. Imagine winning the US Open or The (British) Open 11 times over the past 25 years!!!

Anyway the point is.. with his talent he can surf on a door! An actual solid wood, raised panel door....

https://images.app.goo.gl/xu1GY4qc6TVSjG56A

And... He's like a 2 handicap.

[cksurfdude 10,435]

Oops, kinda rambled on earlier....

Relative to Rev's original question -

For several seasons when I thought I had learned enough about the golf swing that I should be playing competently (ok you all may laugh .. loudly! .. at me now) I was quick to blame the equipment and kept changing out clubs. I improved - a little - but really just by virtue of continuing to play.

Late last season I finally fully convinced myself that it's *ME* .. all me, only me and nothing else .. holding me back. 

So I've been taking swing lessons, practicing a lot, reading about course management techniques, attended a mental game strategies clinic and been playing including 9 holes and Par 3s. 

And I'm really starting to make solid forward progress.

[silver & black 6,372]

Indian. But, quality arrows never hurt.

[GolfSpy MPR 12,187]

A point Mark Crossfield has made from time to time: while it's ultimately up to the Indian, new arrows can entice the Indian to practice and play more, and that can improve the Indian.

[toehold57 1,062]

Rev, your question is what is “more” important?

If any one of us cannot put a swing on the ball then the ball doesn’t matter.

Even with a Rockflite, good players will still be able to score, maybe just not as well.

[Kenny B 32,512]

It's a trick question... there is no right answer.  It all depends on the Indian and the Arrows.