Indian/arrow

[RickyBobby_PR]

59 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... My personal pet peeve and a mission I have been on for many years is shortening the length of your driver. Tom Wishon did a ton of research and found 43" is best driver length for most am's. Considering you potentially lose 5-7yds for every 1/4" you miss the center of your driver and a full 1" miss is pretty normal for many am's, that's potentially 20-28 yds off the tee that is also straighter!!! And some miss by 1.5" - 2". This is one arrow that can make a huge difference for many Indians. With so many thinking OEM's engage in lies and hype, why they play a standard length driver at 45.5" is just mind boggling. OEMs know shorter is longer for most am's but they can't claim that because the next OEM uses a robot to hit their 45.5" and compared to a 44" driver can claim their driver is 10-20 yards longer. True for a robot but the exact opposite of most am's. Shorter drivers are longer and straighter. 

 

The longer driver helps generate swing speed. Imo most ams will miss the center regardless of length so getting some added speed isn’t a bad thing, it may bring in a bigger miss but with face technology that can be minimized.

i forgot what shaft company said it/did it but the difference in dispersion between a 45” and 47” driver wasn’t that significant. Granted they also said play a length that lets you make center contact.

[chisag]

8 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The longer driver helps generate swing speed. Imo most ams will miss the center regardless of length so getting some added speed isn’t a bad thing, it may bring in a bigger miss but with face technology that can be minimized.

i forgot what shaft company said it/did it but the difference in dispersion between a 45” and 47” driver wasn’t that significant. Granted they also said play a length that lets you make center contact.

 

...  Added speed of 1" is minimal compared to missing the center. My personal experience dealing with 100's of students as well as myself of course. And there is always Rickie Fowler. We are not talking the difference between 45-47 but the difference between 45 and 43. I think 44" is the sweet spot for most. I completely disagree most am's miss the center at 43 as much as 45. We have all heard many say they hit their 3 wood better than their driver and certainly loft helps but it is the shorter length and better contact. Most hit their 8 iron better than their 5 iron. Shorter is longer and straighter for the vast majority of players. From Golf Monthly:

 

For every half-inch of mishit on the clubface, you’ll lose five per cent of distance. So if a longer driver is too long for you to control, you’ll hit off-centre hits more frequently, often resulting in a drop in distance and accuracy rather than a rise.

Finding the centre of the face is the biggest ingredient to more distance. You could put a 47in shaft in your driver and your swing speed might increase by 5mph, but if you struggle to control the clubhead and frequently mis-strike the ball in the heel and toe, that extra club speed won’t necessarily translate into the ball speed needed to achieve more distance.

The only way to find out the best shaft length for your game is to hit shots on a launch monitor and discover your club speed, ball speed, distance and dispersion with different lengths of shaft. If your swing speed increases with a longer shaft, but the ball speed remains unchanged, then the extra clubhead speed is useless and you’re giving up accuracy for no reason.

[chisag]

From Tom Wishon:

"It’s time to be blunt.  The standard driver length of 45.5 to 46.5 inches offered by the majority of golf club companies is too long for the majority of golfers and will prevent at least 75% of all golfers from achieving their maximum potential for distance and accuracy.  For men with an average to fast tempo with an outside/in swing path, 44” should be the maximum length; women, 42.5” to 43” should be the limit.  There’s a very good reason the average driver length on the US PGA Tour since 2005 has been 44.5” and not 45.5” to 46.5”."

[RickyBobby_PR]

The guys on tour don’t need speed and ams need speed. Ball and club design are setup to go straighter and minimize the amount of dispersion side to side.

To some wishon is god and the end all be all of club design and such but he’s only one voice. To each their own and what makes golf great is that we can play what we want, how we want and figure out he best way to achieve the results we are looking for. 

 

[LeftyRM7]

I’ve never got the short driver bit. If I’m struggling with it, I just go to my 3 wood. I mean it’s the same concept but you still have the ability to use it when you’re striking it well. Also I’ve never fixed a bad day with the driver by choking up on it. Just my two cents. Going back to the Indian/arrow, I’d rather not tweak on my arrows too much and instead work on the Indian!

At the end of the day it’s about finding what works for you. All the talk about equipment and what’s best for a certain handicap/swing/speed/fault is just talk until you try it and find what works for you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cnosil]

I’ve never got the short driver bit.

It is pretty simple. Ball speed directly correlates to distance. Missing the center of the face reduces ball speed more than a player will gain by increasing length. So before you try to swing faster or increase shaft length the single best way to hit the ball farther is to improve your strike.

[Kenny B]

1 minute ago, cnosil said:

It is pretty simple. Ball speed directly correlates to distance. Missing the center of the face reduces ball speed more than a player will gain by increasing length. So before you try to swing faster or increase shaft length the single best way to hit the ball farther is to improve your strike.

 

Yep!!  I cut down my Bridgestone JGR driver to 44" last year.  I picked up 20 yards!!  How did I do that?  It wasn't my fantastic swing speed!  I hit the center of the face more often.  

How do I know I gained 20 yards?  My miss with the driver is low on the face because my tendency is to hit up on the ball too much.  I still do that on occasion, and the ball goes 20 yards less than when I make center contact.  Longer drivers don't impact my overall distance, but I miss more fairways with them.

[LeftyRM7]

It is pretty simple. Ball speed directly correlates to distance. Missing the center of the face reduces ball speed and more than a player will gain by increasing length. So before you try to swing faster or increase shaft length the single best way to hit the ball farther is to improve your strike.

I get that, but what I’m saying is, I’ve seen no correlation between shaft length and strike. I mean people can struggle with striking any club regardless of length. Getting fit trumps all and strike is always king! Like I said, if it works for you then great!

[cnosil]

 

I get that, but what I’m saying is, I’ve seen no correlation between shaft length and strike. I mean people can struggle with striking any club regardless of length. Getting fit trumps all and strike is always king! Like I said, if it works for you then great!

 

Everyone swings differently and you have to figure out what works for you. What works for me means absolutely nothing to what length you should play

A good fitting should take face contact and shaft length into consideration. Drivers have interchangeable shafts, easy to test this yourself with face tape or foot powder if you don’t have access to a launch monitor.

[revkev]

Wow this moved on to my favorite topic - driver shaft length. I normally agree with everything Chisag writes and I’m not sure that I’m disagreeing with him here just wondering out loud if things have changed.

Even on tour I’m seeing more and more guys with Drivers that are 45” or longer and I certainly see that on the far more relevant LPGA tour - I rarely see a length under 445”.

I’m guessing the Wishon quote comes from a few years back. I wonder if OEMs aren’t making heads that sync better with a longer head in driver.

Regardless you should just go and get fitted for shaft and length that way there’s no doubt. Same way you should use the same ball - eliminate all the variables and make it totally about the Indian from there.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[RickyBobby_PR]

24 minutes ago, revkev said:

Wow this moved on to my favorite topic - driver shaft length. I normally agree with everything Chisag writes and I’m not sure that I’m disagreeing with him here just wondering out loud if things have changed.

Even on tour I’m seeing more and more guys with Drivers that are 45” or longer and I certainly see that on the far more relevant LPGA tour - I rarely see a length under 445”.

I’m guessing the Wishon quote comes from a few years back. I wonder if OEMs aren’t making heads that sync better with a longer head in driver.

Regardless you should just go and get fitted for shaft and length that way there’s no doubt. Same way you should use the same ball - eliminate all the variables and make it totally about the Indian from there.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

The head design is pretty interesting discussion point. It seems like some brands are going lighter and others heavier. I know that shaft companies are in communication with the club brands about designs so that they can design their new shafts to work with the various heads. 

Seems like we are seeing more counter balanced shafts as well

[MaxEntropy]

16 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It seems like some brands are going lighter and others heavier.

At the Wilson Demo Day, I was pretty shocked by the difference in weight between the Cortex and the D7. The Cortex is around 310 g, while the D7 is 192 g (I could not recall the weights, these are what Google says they are, not sure about accuracy). They certainly felt a lot different in my hands. I preferred the heavier feel, but the results were very similar between the two.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, MaxEntropy said:

At the Wilson Demo Day, I was pretty shocked by the difference in weight between the Cortex and the D7. The Cortex is around 310 g, while the D7 is 192 g (I could not recall the weights, these are what Google says they are, not sure about accuracy). They certainly felt a lot different in my hands. I preferred the heavier feel, but the results were very similar between the two.

Yeah it’s all dependent on what the brand is trying to accomplish. When talking speed it’s a lighter head and forgiveness it’s a heavier. Ping is in the 206-208 range for the g400 line. Iirc epic flash is in the 195ish range

[chisag]

... Yea Rev it is a soapbox that has a few slats missing, probably some outdated writing on it, some paint missing and it does not apply to everyone. But it still applies to the vast majority. Are there players that can gain distance going to 45" or even 45.5" and still have reasonable dispersion and most importantly increase their ball speed? Sure, especially those that practice everyday like LPGA and PGA Tour players that don't have the speed of the elite players averaging well over 300 yds. Newer drivers are definitely better on mishits as far as accuracy and dispersion and it has been a selling point for most drivers in the past several years.  Cobra says Tour Length accounts for about 10% of driver sales, which is pretty impressive when you consider it is a special order only. 

... I remember talking to the guys in engineering at Cobra when the Fly Z came out and everyone of them were playing a driver under 45" with a 16gm weight in the back and the called it their "hot set up" and a fairway finder. But not something they could advertise because Sales VP's could not match shorter driver length with robot testing and would lose the distance battle to other OEM's. I would just suggest starting at 44" or 44.5" and then seeing how a longer shaft works for you. Everyone is unique and I did not mean to imply a shorter driver is better for 100% of the people playing the game. But it still does for the majority. 

Edited May 16, 2019 by chisag

[cksurfdude]

10 hours ago, cnosil said:

...So before you try to swing faster or increase shaft length the single best way to hit the ball farther is to improve your strike.

And your AoA.

[cksurfdude]

On 5/13/2019 at 4:49 PM, TR1PTIK said:

If you want to eliminate question marks and ensure that you "the Indian" are the deciding factor, get fit for your equipment and stick with it - at least for one or two seasons.

Totally agree. Made that commitment to myself for this season .. with props to @GolfSpy Dave and his "Impossible Quest" for additional inspiration .. sticking with the clubs I have and focusing on learning to hit them all better. 

Are they the "best" clubs / best fit for me? Don't know .. maybe not .. but maybe they are .. but they are good enough and a close enough fit.

And I'm making good progress this year!

[revkev]

... Yea Rev it is a soapbox that has a few slats missing, probably some outdated writing on it, some paint missing and it does not apply to everyone. But it still applies to the vast majority. Are there players that can gain distance going to 45" or even 44.5" and still have reasonable dispersion and most importantly increase their ball speed? Sure, especially those that practice everyday like LPGA and PGA Tour players that don't have the speed of the elite players averaging well over 300 yds. Newer drivers are definitely better on mishits as far as accuracy and dispersion and it has been a selling point for most drivers in the past several years.  Cobra says Tour Length accounts for about 10% of driver sales, which is pretty impressive when you consider it is a special order only. 

... I remember talking to the guys in engineering at Cobra when the Fly Z came out and everyone of them were playing a driver under 45" with a 16gm weight in the back and the called it their "hot set up" and a fairway finder. But not something they could advertise because Sales VP's could not match shorter driver length with robot testing and would lose the distance battle to other OEM's. I would just suggest starting at 44" or 44.5" and then seeing how a longer shaft works for you. Everyone is unique and I did not mean to imply a shorter driver is better for 100% of the people playing the game. But it still does for the majority. 

Don’t get me wrong I think there was a day not long by ago at all when you were spot on right. It’s just that driver technology continues to evolve. And I doubt there are many who should be at 45.5 plus which is the stock length of most drivers on the market.

I’m going to guess that we would both agree that the best that by to do is go get fit. I’d be at 45 if I weren’t fit to 45.25. My fitter wouldn’t touch the current shaft in my driver when he installed it - he said, “That’s the exact shaft that I fit you with and at the exact length, remember.”


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[chisag]

1 hour ago, revkev said:

Don’t get me wrong I think there was a day not long by ago at all when you were spot on right. It’s just that driver technology continues to evolve. And I doubt there are many who should be at 45.5 plus which is the stock length of most drivers on the market.

I’m going to guess that we would both agree that the best that by to do is go get fit. I’d be at 45 if I weren’t fit to 45.25. My fitter wouldn’t touch the current shaft in my driver when he installed it - he said, “That’s the exact shaft that I fit you with and at the exact length, remember.”

 

 

... I had to edit my post too because I meant to type 45" or even 45.5" because shafts have changed as well as heads. And yes, absolutely get fitted! But as disclaimer, I am not a huge fan of fitting a driver when you stand in one spot and hit it over and over again, grooving a swing. Kinda like handicaps, it gives you an idea of what you can do when at your best, but hitting a ball into a net and hitting a tee shot with water right and a big bunker left is radically different. So even though a 45.5" shaft may work well in a fitting, hitting into a net with zero consequences, it can be much harder to hit the center when it really counts. This is what a golfer has to find out on his own after the fitting. I will also admit seniors with a slower but repeatable swing might be able to hit the center more with a longer shaft than someone trying to milk as much yardage as possible out of every swing. 

[revkev]

 

... I had to edit my post too because I meant to type 45" or even 45.5" because shafts have changed as well as heads. And yes, absolutely get fitted! But as disclaimer, I am not a huge fan of fitting a driver when you stand in one spot and hit it over and over again, grooving a swing. Kinda like handicaps, it gives you an idea of what you can do when at your best, but hitting a ball into a net and hitting a tee shot with water right and a big bunker left is radically different. So even though a 45.5" shaft may work well in a fitting, hitting into a net with zero consequences, it can be much harder to hit the center when it really counts. This is what a golfer has to find out on his own after the fitting. I will also admit seniors with a slower but repeatable swing might be able to hit the center more with a longer shaft than someone trying to milk as much yardage as possible out of every swing. 

 

What are you saying? Are you calling me old and slow?

 

At any rate that is always an issue with fitting. Unless you are incredibly fortunate it’s not going to include the full Monty of hitting a shot under pressure.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[chisag]

On 5/16/2019 at 1:26 PM, revkev said:

What are you saying? Are you calling me old and slow?

 

... If you walk old and slow, swim old and slow and quack old and slow, you are old and slow.   I am sure you know I meant some older players that have lost club head speed can get some back with a longer shaft IF they swing within themselves, especially those that have lost considerable speed due to age. Something younger players rarely do. 

... It alway irritated me when one of my students got fit for clubs and then hit them poorly with "I don't understand, they worked so well at the fitting?" Obviously really good fitters take this into account but imo too many today just look at numbers and not so much the swing, even throwing out the "outliers" which can be more indicative of the on course swing than the "good" fitting swings. I had one student show up with Tommy Armour 845's that were 2* up. I was on staff with TA at the time and could have gotten him the 845's for even less than he paid but he had a $500 credit at the golf store so I couldn't blame him. But I had him fit into standard lie if not a hair flat. I told him to exchange his for standard lie 845's and next lesson he told me something I suspected but wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. They only had the upright lie 845's in stock and would not exchange "already hit clubs" and I found out they could not get more because they were way overdue on paying their bill to TA and went out of business shortly after that. I explained the dilema to TA and they exchanged the irons for me, something they didn't have to do. This is an extreme example of course but we have all heard stories of selling a custom fit very expensive shaft after a fitting when a shaft at a fraction of the price would provide similar, if not exactly as good numbers. 

Edited May 17, 2019 by chisag

[Pug]

The old saw is:”It’s a poor craftsman that blames his tools.” This puts the emphasis on the player. However, I would add that While I have never met a genuine craftsman that used poor tools, great quality tools won’t make you a craftsman.

 I should know. I always prefer to buy good quality gear and MGS has informed every choice I have made in the bag, but I still need to practice diligently, take lessons and play as much as I can to try to whittle away at my handicap. And I still really suck  but can’t help but love this fascinating frustrating game. 

[revkev]

The old saw is:”It’s a poor craftsman that blames his tools.” This puts the emphasis on the player. However, I would add that While I have never met a genuine craftsman that used poor tools, great quality tools won’t make you a craftsman.
 I should know. I always prefer to buy good quality gear and MGS has informed every choice I have made in the bag, but I still need to practice diligently, take lessons and play as much as I can to try to whittle away at my handicap. And I still really suck  but can’t help but love this fascinating frustrating game. 

I certainly agree that it is more the Indian but I think the point is well taken that the “wrong” tools make the task more difficult or as the MGS ball test showed, impossible.

You’d need to define good quality gear. Every player on tour uses “good quality gear” and I’d probably quit playing if I were forced to game much of it. In fact I’d be much better off with a set of lady Warrior clubs than what Tiger Woods has in his bag.

Irons that are too upright will cause me to hit the ball left, I will start to adjust and all of a sudden swing flaws will develop - how do I know? Because I’ve been there, done that.

So while I think that I can quantify 3-5 strokes to properly fit equipment it’s probably a higher percentage than that. Could it be 85/15? 70/30? That’s where I’m uncertain.

I know this - the call is huge - not so much the what (although clearly not Callaway) but that it’s the same all season and urethane. Could I shout a 75 with a non urethane ball - of course but over the long haul I’m going to face shots that require that spin around the green -

This isn’t about 18 holes - it’s about the season or two or three. (I generally get two seasons out of driver and 3 out of my irons). BTW in the category of making people jealous I almost never change putters. :)


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[tony@CIC]

I'm a bit late into this discussion. Where initially I was convinced it's the Indian, now I'll concede it's a combination. As an example when I got fitted earlier this month one of my complaints was that I was terribly inconsistent with my hybrids and 3 wood.  The fitter put me into a 5 and 9 wood and new hybrids and now I'm consistently launching the ball well. Where before I had trepidation when I pulled out my 3 wood or 19* hybrid - now I immediately go for the 5 or 9 wood with a high level of confidence. 

[revkev]

I thought about this thread warming up yesterday. My friend just got a new set of Sub 70 639’s. He is 2 degrees upright and has a driver swing speed of a bit above 100. His irons are stiff steel shafts.

I’m 2 degrees flat and have a driver swing speed of 95 (between S and R) and prefer graphite.

So I hit his irons and surprise surprise every shot went 15 yards left (2 degrees up v. 2 degrees flat makes a difference.)

Beyond a doubt I could figure out how to hit them straight but why and what adjustments might I have to make that could lead to bad habits?


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[Wedgie]

I thought about this thread warming up yesterday. My friend just got a new set of Sub 70 639’s. He is 2 degrees upright and has a driver swing speed of a bit above 100. His irons are stiff steel shafts.  

I’m 2 degrees flat and have a driver swing speed of 95 (between S and R) and prefer graphite.

 

So I hit his irons and surprise surprise every shot went 15 yards left (2 degrees up v. 2 degrees flat makes a difference.)

 

Beyond a doubt I could figure out how to hit them straight but why and what adjustments might I have to make that could lead to bad habits?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using

 

 

Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

 

Lie board says 2 degrees flat, actually hitting a ball tells me standard lie. No wonder I miss right all the time.

 

[revkev]

 Lie board says 2 degrees flat, actually hitting a ball tells me standard lie. No wonder I miss right all the time.
 

Could easily be - you could always have played standard and your swing developed in that way - that’s why static fittings need to be coupled with actually hitting shots.



Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[RickyBobby_PR]

49 minutes ago, revkev said:

 

 

Could easily be - you could always have played standard and your swing developed in that way - that’s why static fittings need to be coupled with actually hitting shots.



Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

 

Does anyone do static fittings any more? Does anyone use a lie board? 

I haven’t been measured for height, wrist to floor or grip size in more than a decade including several ping fittings and we know how much they were into static fittings.

i haven’t seen a lie board used in at least 2 years if not longer.

I think this could be true for many golfers who are self taught and bought off the shelf and fitters use what they see (ball flight, club delivery, lm numbers) and maybe some form of lie check (lie board, marker line on ball) to fit the golfer.  Our brains will make adjustments to what we see feel to swing how we feel comfortable or what we perceive needs to be done to hit a good shot.

quick example from a titleist Thursday fitting for the 917 driver. We went they several shafts and lofts including adapter settings. After we got dialed in and found the best combo the fitter says to me you are my last appointment, do you have a few minutes to make some more swings for me? I told him yeah I’m good. He take the driver adjusts the adapter to a more upright setting (told me not to look at adapter till afterwards). I take 5 swings and he says thanks, then tells me what he did and that I completely changed my swing to compensate for what I was seeing at address and the the results of the first swing 

[robertson153]

Does anyone do static fittings any more? Does anyone use a lie board? 
I haven’t been measured for height, wrist to floor or grip size in more than a decade including several ping fittings and we know how much they were into static fittings.
i haven’t seen a lie board used in at least 2 years if not longer.
I think this could be true for many golfers who are self taught and bought off the shelf and fitters use what they see (ball flight, club delivery, lm numbers) and maybe some form of lie check (lie board, marker line on ball) to fit the golfer.  Our brains will make adjustments to what we see feel to swing how we feel comfortable or what we perceive needs to be done to hit a good shot.
quick example from a titleist Thursday fitting for the 917 driver. We went they several shafts and lofts including adapter settings. After we got dialed in and found the best combo the fitter says to me you are my last appointment, do you have a few minutes to make some more swings for me? I told him yeah I’m good. He take the driver adjusts the adapter to a more upright setting (told me not to look at adapter till afterwards). I take 5 swings and he says thanks, then tells me what he did and that I completely changed my swing to compensate for what I was seeing at address and the the results of the first swing 

When I done my fitting for the Cobras they measured me and I hit off the lie board. The fitter didn’t want me to look at the loft of whatever I was hitting, or the shaft. Said we have preconceived expectations when we see what we’re hitting. Made sense to me so I didn’t look.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[revkev]

Well I get to put all of this to the test when I have my Ping fitting on Tuesday. You will be able to read all about it on that thread once it comes up.

Plus I decided to drop some of my own coin and get fitted for irons and driver that day, too. After all I have picked up 10 mph in driver clubhead speed. I see it in driver in that I’m much longer but equipment wise I see it most in irons where I really need to scale back my swing or I’m totally out of sync. I can hit them okay but it’s way too much work at this point.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[SmoothG]

I remember playing golf in high school and one day the coach went up the range and hit all of our drivers.  We all had different clubs, different flex etc... Coach gave it a waggle and no matter the club just piped one straight up the middle.  Ever since then I knew it was the "indian".... that doesn't stop me from buying new clubs all the time tho, lol.