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Indian/Arrow  

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  1. 1. What’s more important? Having the proper ball and clubs or improving yourself as a player?

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23 hours ago, LeftyRM7 said:

I believe the Indian is always the biggest variable by a wide margin. That’s not to say equipment doesn’t matter, but if you’re not doing your part, none of it really matters in the end.

winner, winner, chicken dinner.  I'd venture to say it's a 80/20 relationship...maybe even 90/10.

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:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver | Official 2019 MGS Tester

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:ping-small: G410 Irons 4-UW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

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A point Mark Crossfield has made from time to time: while it's ultimately up to the Indian, new arrows can entice the Indian to practice and play more, and that can improve the Indian.

I thought about this thread warming up yesterday. My friend just got a new set of Sub 70 639’s. He is 2 degrees upright and has a driver swing speed of a bit above 100. His irons are stiff steel sh

The old saw is:”It’s a poor craftsman that blames his tools.” This puts the emphasis on the player. However, I would add that While I have never met a genuine craftsman that used poor tools, great qua

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A player with sound technique will be able to adapt to the equipment. A weaker player really needs to be in equipment that does what it can to help correct his faults.
So I guess my answer is the better you are, the less the arrow matters.

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:callaway-small: Rogue SZ 10.5 *NEW* Fujikura Pro Green 65 X

:callaway-small: Rogue 15 degree Evnflow Blue 6.5

Back in the Bag :srixon-small: Z765 4-G Nippon Modus 120 Stiff

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The Indian/player a zillion percent.

When I started playing there was no such thing as a fitting and we all knew nada about shafts, swingspeeds, kick points, flex etc etc

You bought a set (of blades) off the shelf you liked the look of and you went out and practiced till you could hit it well. When you couldnt you got a lesson till you could.

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Driver     Awaiting NEW Driver (after 10 yrs)  
4 Wood   Callaway Big Bertha Steelhead plus 4+  :callaway-small: Callaway shaft in 'Firm' flex

Hybrid     Titleist 910H 19*    :titelist-small:   Diamana ahina 'flower' shaft in 'S'

Irons         Mizuno MP18SC 4-PW   :mizuno-small:  N.S Pro Modus3 Tour 105 in 'S'

Wedges    Callaway Mack Daddy forged in black 50* and 54*  :callaway-small:   KBS Tour in 'R'

Putter        'YES' Tracy 11 C groove 34.5"

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On 5/12/2019 at 8:51 AM, gaussman1 said:

A player with sound technique will be able to adapt to the equipment. A weaker player really needs to be in equipment that does what it can to help correct his faults.
So I guess my answer is the better you are, the less the arrow matters.

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TLDR - MOSTLY Indian. At some points in development/skillset the arrows matter.

 

I wish there was a way to actually quantify this and graph it (because I am a nerd like that).

My best guess is that at a 20+ handicap it is 99% Indian. Swing is so wrong and non-repeatable that perfectly fitted top of the line clubs will make almost zero difference. AND older/smaller sweet spot clubs might be better because they would get better feedback on mishits during practice.

Somewhere between 19 and X HCP the player improves enough that fitting clubs and picking a single ball will help improve play. But a duffed/fatted/thinned/bladed/OTT-ed ball/iron combo will not make a driver go 240 down the middle no matter how perfect the fitting.

Somewhere between X and Y you get players that are good enough to surf on doors and can play any clubs well (plenty of YouTubers who play rounds with old school clubs under 80). At that point, moving to higher quality clubs and balls that allow more workability....

blah blah blah... I'm rambling. But I think there's some areas where the arrow provides decent return and some places where it wouldn't matter a bit and I'd love to see data and see it graphed.

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Driver - :ping-small: G400 LST

3W & 4H - Orlimar High Energy 2

Irons - :cobra-small:F7 OL (5I - GW)

Wedges -  Top Flight Gamer Tour 52* 56* 60*

Putter - Orlimar HE2

Balls - Vice Pro

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A player with sound technique will be able to adapt to the equipment. A weaker player really needs to be in equipment that does what it can to help correct his faults.



Yes .. well said!
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..Cleveland CBX2 54 (Rotex graphite) and Callaway X-Jaws 60 (TT-DG S300)
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On 5/11/2019 at 8:46 AM, revkev said:

 

I just had an interesting discussion with some friends about the ball test. One has abandoned the chrome soft that he’ gamed last year (his handicap went up BTW), another just received his 6 dozen MTB black x’s. The fourth thinks it really doesn’t matter and will continue to play whatever he finds and throws in his bag.

 

So I’m wondering what you guys think - how much of the equation is the Indian and how much of it is the arrow? For the purpose of this discussion arose will include clubs and balls. Lessons and/or fitness plans and practice all impact the Indian

 

What’s more important having the proper ball and clubs or improving yourself as a player?

 

 

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Have you ever watched Dustin Johnson hit a persimmon driver? Lol. That said, when it comes to the ball there is an obvious benefit to playing the same one on every shot - consistency. If you want to eliminate question marks and ensure that you "the Indian" are the deciding factor, get fit for your equipment and stick with it - at least for one or two seasons.

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Driver: Mizuno ST190 9.5* Fujikura Atmos Blue 5S
Fairway Wood: Mizuno ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S
Hyrbrid: Mizuno CLK 19* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
Irons: Nike Vapor Pro Combo (4-PW) Dynamic Gold Pro S300
Wedges: Bridgestone Tour B XW-1 50*, 54*, & 58* Nippon Modus 3 105
Putter: Scotty Cameron Futura 6m 33"
Ball: Bridgestone Tour B XS
Bag: 2017 Titleist Players 5 Stand Bag

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Have you ever watched Dustin Johnson hit a persimmon driver? Lol. That said, when it comes to the ball there is an obvious benefit to playing the same one on every shot - consistency. If you want to eliminate question marks and ensure that you "the Indian" are the deciding factor, get fit for your equipment and stick with it - at least for one or two seasons.


Just please remember that Dustin Johnson was using a modern ball when hitting that drover. Regardless its unlikely that he could hang on the Hooters Tour if he were forced to use persimmon woods. His distance and accuracy would suffer despite what we saw on a few shots on video. Jack hit one 340 in the PGA long drive and that with balata, his average drive was 270 though.

I agree that the Indian is the most important element. What percent though?

The few studies that I’ve read suggest that most golfers play clubs that are too strong for their game - - I think you can get by with too weak over too strong beyond a doubt so I have little doubt that what the top fitters I’ve visited have told me is true mid to high caps who play frequently stand to gain the most from playing properly fit equipment - as much as 4-6 strokes. So I guess that’s about 5-7 percent better.

The ball is easy - any urethane ball in the top two categories of the MGS test and make it the same one the whole season. Just make it the same one to minimize a variable.

So 95-5 sounds about right to me.

Thanks for the replies and keep them coming.


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Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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Absolutely the Indian... give new golfer  the best arrows (clubs/balls) and see how they perform. Give the pros lower quality arrows and theyd still be great. Can the best arrows help the best Indians, that's obviously a yes

Driver  :titelist-small: TS 2, Hzrdus Smoke Black Stiff 9.5* Setting, A2

Fairway Wood:   :ping-small: G30 Stiff Shaft

Hybrid:   :titelist-small: TS2 19* Hzrdus Smoke Black Stiff shaft

Irons:     :titelist-small: 718 AP1 (4-PW) AMT Red Stiff Shafts 

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: RTX4 52* 56*

Putter:   :cameron-small: Scotty Cameron Golo 5

Right Handed 

Pittsburgh, PA

 

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3 hours ago, revkev said:

The few studies that I’ve read suggest that most golfers play clubs that are too strong for their game - - I think you can get by with too weak over too strong beyond a doubt so I have little doubt that what the top fitters I’ve visited have told me is true mid to high caps who play frequently stand to gain the most from playing properly fit equipment - as much as 4-6 strokes. So I guess that’s about 5-7 percent better.
 

 

 

... My personal pet peeve and a mission I have been on for many years is shortening the length of your driver. Tom Wishon did a ton of research and found 43" is best driver length for most am's. Considering you potentially lose 5-7yds for every 1/4" you miss the center of your driver and a full 1" miss is pretty normal for many am's, that's potentially 20-28 yds off the tee that is also straighter!!! And some miss by 1.5" - 2". This is one arrow that can make a huge difference for many Indians. With so many thinking OEM's engage in lies and hype, why they play a standard length driver at 45.5" is just mind boggling. OEMs know shorter is longer for most am's but they can't claim that because the next OEM uses a robot to hit their 45.5" and compared to a 44" driver can claim their driver is 10-20 yards longer. True for a robot but the exact opposite of most am's. Shorter drivers are longer and straighter. 

 

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Driver:   Cobra Speedzone Xtreme 9* ... Tensei Orange 60s
Fw wood: Cobra Speedzone 14.5* ... Atmos TS Blue 7s
Utility:   Callaway Super Hybrid 17*   ... Tensei Pro Orange 80 hy s-flex
Irons:    4-Gw Titleist T100-S ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
Wedges:  SM6 52* F Grind ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
                 SM7D & SM8M 58* ... Steelfiber 110 s-flex 4 iron shaft
Putter:  Newport 2.5 at 33.5"
Ball:  TaylorMade TP5

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Obviously I'll agree with the group, its its the Indian.  A good player can shoot a decent score with poor clubs, a poor player can't shoot a good score with the very best clubs.  Contrary to a few, I think equipment can make the largest difference for really good players.  By different, I guess I'm thinking of percentage improvement, rather than gross numbers.  Golf balls matter for fine-tuning, but still aren't critical.  Just as an example, I can show you a video log of two good players shooting -3 over 18 holes of alternate shot  using a purple  Top-Flite Diva ball.  Would they have been much lower with a ProV1, or any other "good" ball?

Moral of the story, spend time on getting good instruction and good practice.  

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:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

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59 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... My personal pet peeve and a mission I have been on for many years is shortening the length of your driver. Tom Wishon did a ton of research and found 43" is best driver length for most am's. Considering you potentially lose 5-7yds for every 1/4" you miss the center of your driver and a full 1" miss is pretty normal for many am's, that's potentially 20-28 yds off the tee that is also straighter!!! And some miss by 1.5" - 2". This is one arrow that can make a huge difference for many Indians. With so many thinking OEM's engage in lies and hype, why they play a standard length driver at 45.5" is just mind boggling. OEMs know shorter is longer for most am's but they can't claim that because the next OEM uses a robot to hit their 45.5" and compared to a 44" driver can claim their driver is 10-20 yards longer. True for a robot but the exact opposite of most am's. Shorter drivers are longer and straighter. 

 

The longer driver helps generate swing speed. Imo most ams will miss the center regardless of length so getting some added speed isn’t a bad thing, it may bring in a bigger miss but with face technology that can be minimized.

i forgot what shaft company said it/did it but the difference in dispersion between a 45” and 47” driver wasn’t that significant. Granted they also said play a length that lets you make center contact.

Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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8 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The longer driver helps generate swing speed. Imo most ams will miss the center regardless of length so getting some added speed isn’t a bad thing, it may bring in a bigger miss but with face technology that can be minimized.

i forgot what shaft company said it/did it but the difference in dispersion between a 45” and 47” driver wasn’t that significant. Granted they also said play a length that lets you make center contact.

 

...  Added speed of 1" is minimal compared to missing the center. My personal experience dealing with 100's of students as well as myself of course. And there is always Rickie Fowler. We are not talking the difference between 45-47 but the difference between 45 and 43. I think 44" is the sweet spot for most. I completely disagree most am's miss the center at 43 as much as 45. We have all heard many say they hit their 3 wood better than their driver and certainly loft helps but it is the shorter length and better contact. Most hit their 8 iron better than their 5 iron. Shorter is longer and straighter for the vast majority of players. From Golf Monthly:

 

For every half-inch of mishit on the clubface, you’ll lose five per cent of distance. So if a longer driver is too long for you to control, you’ll hit off-centre hits more frequently, often resulting in a drop in distance and accuracy rather than a rise.

Finding the centre of the face is the biggest ingredient to more distance. You could put a 47in shaft in your driver and your swing speed might increase by 5mph, but if you struggle to control the clubhead and frequently mis-strike the ball in the heel and toe, that extra club speed won’t necessarily translate into the ball speed needed to achieve more distance.

The only way to find out the best shaft length for your game is to hit shots on a launch monitor and discover your club speed, ball speed, distance and dispersion with different lengths of shaft. If your swing speed increases with a longer shaft, but the ball speed remains unchanged, then the extra clubhead speed is useless and you’re giving up accuracy for no reason.

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Driver:   Cobra Speedzone Xtreme 9* ... Tensei Orange 60s
Fw wood: Cobra Speedzone 14.5* ... Atmos TS Blue 7s
Utility:   Callaway Super Hybrid 17*   ... Tensei Pro Orange 80 hy s-flex
Irons:    4-Gw Titleist T100-S ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
Wedges:  SM6 52* F Grind ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
                 SM7D & SM8M 58* ... Steelfiber 110 s-flex 4 iron shaft
Putter:  Newport 2.5 at 33.5"
Ball:  TaylorMade TP5

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From Tom Wishon:

"It’s time to be blunt.  The standard driver length of 45.5 to 46.5 inches offered by the majority of golf club companies is too long for the majority of golfers and will prevent at least 75% of all golfers from achieving their maximum potential for distance and accuracy.  For men with an average to fast tempo with an outside/in swing path, 44” should be the maximum length; women, 42.5” to 43” should be the limit.  There’s a very good reason the average driver length on the US PGA Tour since 2005 has been 44.5” and not 45.5” to 46.5”."

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Driver:   Cobra Speedzone Xtreme 9* ... Tensei Orange 60s
Fw wood: Cobra Speedzone 14.5* ... Atmos TS Blue 7s
Utility:   Callaway Super Hybrid 17*   ... Tensei Pro Orange 80 hy s-flex
Irons:    4-Gw Titleist T100-S ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
Wedges:  SM6 52* F Grind ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
                 SM7D & SM8M 58* ... Steelfiber 110 s-flex 4 iron shaft
Putter:  Newport 2.5 at 33.5"
Ball:  TaylorMade TP5

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The guys on tour don’t need speed and ams need speed. Ball and club design are setup to go straighter and minimize the amount of dispersion side to side.

To some wishon is god and the end all be all of club design and such but he’s only one voice. To each their own and what makes golf great is that we can play what we want, how we want and figure out he best way to achieve the results we are looking for. 

 

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Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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I’ve never got the short driver bit. If I’m struggling with it, I just go to my 3 wood. I mean it’s the same concept but you still have the ability to use it when you’re striking it well. Also I’ve never fixed a bad day with the driver by choking up on it. Just my two cents. Going back to the Indian/arrow, I’d rather not tweak on my arrows too much and instead work on the Indian!

At the end of the day it’s about finding what works for you. All the talk about equipment and what’s best for a certain handicap/swing/speed/fault is just talk until you try it and find what works for you!


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I’ve never got the short driver bit.


It is pretty simple. Ball speed directly correlates to distance. Missing the center of the face reduces ball speed more than a player will gain by increasing length. So before you try to swing faster or increase shaft length the single best way to hit the ball farther is to improve your strike.
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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* with UST Proforce V2
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  :odyssey-small: Ten S      Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330,   :EVNROLL: ER2.2,  

 

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1 minute ago, cnosil said:


It is pretty simple. Ball speed directly correlates to distance. Missing the center of the face reduces ball speed more than a player will gain by increasing length. So before you try to swing faster or increase shaft length the single best way to hit the ball farther is to improve your strike.

 

Yep!!  I cut down my Bridgestone JGR driver to 44" last year.  I picked up 20 yards!!  How did I do that?  It wasn't my fantastic swing speed!  I hit the center of the face more often.  

How do I know I gained 20 yards?  My miss with the driver is low on the face because my tendency is to hit up on the ball too much.  I still do that on occasion, and the ball goes 20 yards less than when I make center contact.  Longer drivers don't impact my overall distance, but I miss more fairways with them.

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It is pretty simple. Ball speed directly correlates to distance. Missing the center of the face reduces ball speed and more than a player will gain by increasing length. So before you try to swing faster or increase shaft length the single best way to hit the ball farther is to improve your strike.


I get that, but what I’m saying is, I’ve seen no correlation between shaft length and strike. I mean people can struggle with striking any club regardless of length. Getting fit trumps all and strike is always king! Like I said, if it works for you then great!
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I get that, but what I’m saying is, I’ve seen no correlation between shaft length and strike. I mean people can struggle with striking any club regardless of length. Getting fit trumps all and strike is always king! Like I said, if it works for you then great!

 

Everyone swings differently and you have to figure out what works for you. What works for me means absolutely nothing to what length you should play

A good fitting should take face contact and shaft length into consideration. Drivers have interchangeable shafts, easy to test this yourself with face tape or foot powder if you don’t have access to a launch monitor.

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* with UST Proforce V2
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  :odyssey-small: Ten S      Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330,   :EVNROLL: ER2.2,  

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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Wow this moved on to my favorite topic - driver shaft length. I normally agree with everything Chisag writes and I’m not sure that I’m disagreeing with him here just wondering out loud if things have changed.

Even on tour I’m seeing more and more guys with Drivers that are 45” or longer and I certainly see that on the far more relevant LPGA tour - I rarely see a length under 445”.

I’m guessing the Wishon quote comes from a few years back. I wonder if OEMs aren’t making heads that sync better with a longer head in driver.

Regardless you should just go and get fitted for shaft and length that way there’s no doubt. Same way you should use the same ball - eliminate all the variables and make it totally about the Indian from there.


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Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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