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  1. 1. What’s more important? Having the proper ball and clubs or improving yourself as a player?

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24 minutes ago, revkev said:

Wow this moved on to my favorite topic - driver shaft length. I normally agree with everything Chisag writes and I’m not sure that I’m disagreeing with him here just wondering out loud if things have changed.

Even on tour I’m seeing more and more guys with Drivers that are 45” or longer and I certainly see that on the far more relevant LPGA tour - I rarely see a length under 445”.

I’m guessing the Wishon quote comes from a few years back. I wonder if OEMs aren’t making heads that sync better with a longer head in driver.

Regardless you should just go and get fitted for shaft and length that way there’s no doubt. Same way you should use the same ball - eliminate all the variables and make it totally about the Indian from there.


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The head design is pretty interesting discussion point. It seems like some brands are going lighter and others heavier. I know that shaft companies are in communication with the club brands about designs so that they can design their new shafts to work with the various heads. 

Seems like we are seeing more counter balanced shafts as well

  • Like 1

Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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A point Mark Crossfield has made from time to time: while it's ultimately up to the Indian, new arrows can entice the Indian to practice and play more, and that can improve the Indian.

I thought about this thread warming up yesterday. My friend just got a new set of Sub 70 639’s. He is 2 degrees upright and has a driver swing speed of a bit above 100. His irons are stiff steel sh

The old saw is:”It’s a poor craftsman that blames his tools.” This puts the emphasis on the player. However, I would add that While I have never met a genuine craftsman that used poor tools, great qua

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16 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It seems like some brands are going lighter and others heavier.

At the Wilson Demo Day, I was pretty shocked by the difference in weight between the Cortex and the D7. The Cortex is around 310 g, while the D7 is 192 g (I could not recall the weights, these are what Google says they are, not sure about accuracy). They certainly felt a lot different in my hands. I preferred the heavier feel, but the results were very similar between the two.

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Driver: :bridgestone-small: Tour B JGR 9.5* Recoil 460ES cut to 45"
3W: :bridgestone-small: Tour B JGR 15* Recoil 460ES
3H, 4H: :bridgestone-small: Tour B JGR 19*, 23* Recoil 780ES
4-PW:  :bridgestone-small: Tour B JGR HF2 Modus3 Tour 105
AW: :mizuno-small:S5 52*
SW: :cleveland-small: 588
LW: :callaway-small: MD3
Putter: :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab Marxman
Bag: :bridgestone-small: Tour B Stand Bag
Ball: :srixon-small: Z-Star
Pushcart: BigMax iQ+

:SuperSpeed: Tester
Starting Driver Speed on PRGR Monitor: 102 mph

Final Driver Speed (end of Level 2): 120 mph

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1 hour ago, MaxEntropy said:

At the Wilson Demo Day, I was pretty shocked by the difference in weight between the Cortex and the D7. The Cortex is around 310 g, while the D7 is 192 g (I could not recall the weights, these are what Google says they are, not sure about accuracy). They certainly felt a lot different in my hands. I preferred the heavier feel, but the results were very similar between the two.

Yeah it’s all dependent on what the brand is trying to accomplish. When talking speed it’s a lighter head and forgiveness it’s a heavier. Ping is in the 206-208 range for the g400 line. Iirc epic flash is in the 195ish range

  • Like 2

Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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... Yea Rev it is a soapbox that has a few slats missing, probably some outdated writing on it, some paint missing and it does not apply to everyone. But it still applies to the vast majority. Are there players that can gain distance going to 45" or even 45.5" and still have reasonable dispersion and most importantly increase their ball speed? Sure, especially those that practice everyday like LPGA and PGA Tour players that don't have the speed of the elite players averaging well over 300 yds. Newer drivers are definitely better on mishits as far as accuracy and dispersion and it has been a selling point for most drivers in the past several years.  Cobra says Tour Length accounts for about 10% of driver sales, which is pretty impressive when you consider it is a special order only. 

... I remember talking to the guys in engineering at Cobra when the Fly Z came out and everyone of them were playing a driver under 45" with a 16gm weight in the back and the called it their "hot set up" and a fairway finder. But not something they could advertise because Sales VP's could not match shorter driver length with robot testing and would lose the distance battle to other OEM's. I would just suggest starting at 44" or 44.5" and then seeing how a longer shaft works for you. Everyone is unique and I did not mean to imply a shorter driver is better for 100% of the people playing the game. But it still does for the majority. 

Edited by chisag
  • Like 6

Driver:   TaylorMade SIM Max ... Diamana Limited 55R
Utility:   Callaway Super Hybrid 17*   ... Diamana Limited 65R
               TaylorMade DHy 19* ... Diamana Limited 65R
Irons:    4-Gw Titleist T100-S ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
Wedges:  SM6 52* F Grind ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
                 SM7D & SM8M 58* ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
Putter:  Newport 2.5 at 33.5"
Ball:  TaylorMade TP5

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10 hours ago, cnosil said:

...So before you try to swing faster or increase shaft length the single best way to hit the ball farther is to improve your strike.

And your AoA.

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WITB of an "aspiring"  😉 play-ah ...
..Tour Edge Exotics EXS 3W/HL (17*) and EXS 7W (both Tensei CK Blue)
..Callaway XR 4H (Project X SD)
..PXG 0211 6i-GW (Mitsubishi MMT) 
..Cleveland CBX2 54 (Rotex graphite) and Callaway X-Jaws 60 (TT-DG S300)
..Evnroll ER5 (33", 385g)
..all in a Datrek Hybrid bag on a Bag Boy Quad XL push cart.

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On 5/13/2019 at 4:49 PM, TR1PTIK said:

If you want to eliminate question marks and ensure that you "the Indian" are the deciding factor, get fit for your equipment and stick with it - at least for one or two seasons.

Totally agree. Made that commitment to myself for this season .. with props to @GolfSpy Dave and his "Impossible Quest" for additional inspiration .. sticking with the clubs I have and focusing on learning to hit them all better. 

Are they the "best" clubs / best fit for me? Don't know .. maybe not .. but maybe they are .. but they are good enough and a close enough fit.

And I'm making good progress this year!

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WITB of an "aspiring"  😉 play-ah ...
..Tour Edge Exotics EXS 3W/HL (17*) and EXS 7W (both Tensei CK Blue)
..Callaway XR 4H (Project X SD)
..PXG 0211 6i-GW (Mitsubishi MMT) 
..Cleveland CBX2 54 (Rotex graphite) and Callaway X-Jaws 60 (TT-DG S300)
..Evnroll ER5 (33", 385g)
..all in a Datrek Hybrid bag on a Bag Boy Quad XL push cart.

Forum Member tester for the ExPutt Putting Simulator

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... Yea Rev it is a soapbox that has a few slats missing, probably some outdated writing on it, some paint missing and it does not apply to everyone. But it still applies to the vast majority. Are there players that can gain distance going to 45" or even 44.5" and still have reasonable dispersion and most importantly increase their ball speed? Sure, especially those that practice everyday like LPGA and PGA Tour players that don't have the speed of the elite players averaging well over 300 yds. Newer drivers are definitely better on mishits as far as accuracy and dispersion and it has been a selling point for most drivers in the past several years.  Cobra says Tour Length accounts for about 10% of driver sales, which is pretty impressive when you consider it is a special order only. 

... I remember talking to the guys in engineering at Cobra when the Fly Z came out and everyone of them were playing a driver under 45" with a 16gm weight in the back and the called it their "hot set up" and a fairway finder. But not something they could advertise because Sales VP's could not match shorter driver length with robot testing and would lose the distance battle to other OEM's. I would just suggest starting at 44" or 44.5" and then seeing how a longer shaft works for you. Everyone is unique and I did not mean to imply a shorter driver is better for 100% of the people playing the game. But it still does for the majority. 


Don’t get me wrong I think there was a day not long by ago at all when you were spot on right. It’s just that driver technology continues to evolve. And I doubt there are many who should be at 45.5 plus which is the stock length of most drivers on the market.

I’m going to guess that we would both agree that the best that by to do is go get fit. I’d be at 45 if I weren’t fit to 45.25. My fitter wouldn’t touch the current shaft in my driver when he installed it - he said, “That’s the exact shaft that I fit you with and at the exact length, remember.”


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Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

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1 hour ago, revkev said:

Don’t get me wrong I think there was a day not long by ago at all when you were spot on right. It’s just that driver technology continues to evolve. And I doubt there are many who should be at 45.5 plus which is the stock length of most drivers on the market.

I’m going to guess that we would both agree that the best that by to do is go get fit. I’d be at 45 if I weren’t fit to 45.25. My fitter wouldn’t touch the current shaft in my driver when he installed it - he said, “That’s the exact shaft that I fit you with and at the exact length, remember.”

 

 

... I had to edit my post too because I meant to type 45" or even 45.5" because shafts have changed as well as heads. And yes, absolutely get fitted! But as disclaimer, I am not a huge fan of fitting a driver when you stand in one spot and hit it over and over again, grooving a swing. Kinda like handicaps, it gives you an idea of what you can do when at your best, but hitting a ball into a net and hitting a tee shot with water right and a big bunker left is radically different. So even though a 45.5" shaft may work well in a fitting, hitting into a net with zero consequences, it can be much harder to hit the center when it really counts. This is what a golfer has to find out on his own after the fitting. I will also admit seniors with a slower but repeatable swing might be able to hit the center more with a longer shaft than someone trying to milk as much yardage as possible out of every swing. 

  • Like 6

Driver:   TaylorMade SIM Max ... Diamana Limited 55R
Utility:   Callaway Super Hybrid 17*   ... Diamana Limited 65R
               TaylorMade DHy 19* ... Diamana Limited 65R
Irons:    4-Gw Titleist T100-S ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
Wedges:  SM6 52* F Grind ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
                 SM7D & SM8M 58* ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
Putter:  Newport 2.5 at 33.5"
Ball:  TaylorMade TP5

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... I had to edit my post too because I meant to type 45" or even 45.5" because shafts have changed as well as heads. And yes, absolutely get fitted! But as disclaimer, I am not a huge fan of fitting a driver when you stand in one spot and hit it over and over again, grooving a swing. Kinda like handicaps, it gives you an idea of what you can do when at your best, but hitting a ball into a net and hitting a tee shot with water right and a big bunker left is radically different. So even though a 45.5" shaft may work well in a fitting, hitting into a net with zero consequences, it can be much harder to hit the center when it really counts. This is what a golfer has to find out on his own after the fitting. I will also admit seniors with a slower but repeatable swing might be able to hit the center more with a longer shaft than someone trying to milk as much yardage as possible out of every swing. 

 

What are you saying? Are you calling me old and slow?

 

At any rate that is always an issue with fitting. Unless you are incredibly fortunate it’s not going to include the full Monty of hitting a shot under pressure.

 

 

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  • Like 3

Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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On 5/16/2019 at 1:26 PM, revkev said:

What are you saying? Are you calling me old and slow? emoji56.png

 

... If you walk old and slow, swim old and slow and quack old and slow, you are old and slow. 🤣  I am sure you know I meant some older players that have lost club head speed can get some back with a longer shaft IF they swing within themselves, especially those that have lost considerable speed due to age. Something younger players rarely do. 

... It alway irritated me when one of my students got fit for clubs and then hit them poorly with "I don't understand, they worked so well at the fitting?" Obviously really good fitters take this into account but imo too many today just look at numbers and not so much the swing, even throwing out the "outliers" which can be more indicative of the on course swing than the "good" fitting swings. I had one student show up with Tommy Armour 845's that were 2* up. I was on staff with TA at the time and could have gotten him the 845's for even less than he paid but he had a $500 credit at the golf store so I couldn't blame him. But I had him fit into standard lie if not a hair flat. I told him to exchange his for standard lie 845's and next lesson he told me something I suspected but wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. They only had the upright lie 845's in stock and would not exchange "already hit clubs" and I found out they could not get more because they were way overdue on paying their bill to TA and went out of business shortly after that. I explained the dilema to TA and they exchanged the irons for me, something they didn't have to do. This is an extreme example of course but we have all heard stories of selling a custom fit very expensive shaft after a fitting when a shaft at a fraction of the price would provide similar, if not exactly as good numbers. 

Edited by chisag
  • Like 5

Driver:   TaylorMade SIM Max ... Diamana Limited 55R
Utility:   Callaway Super Hybrid 17*   ... Diamana Limited 65R
               TaylorMade DHy 19* ... Diamana Limited 65R
Irons:    4-Gw Titleist T100-S ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
Wedges:  SM6 52* F Grind ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
                 SM7D & SM8M 58* ... Steelfiber 95 r-flex
Putter:  Newport 2.5 at 33.5"
Ball:  TaylorMade TP5

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The old saw is:”It’s a poor craftsman that blames his tools.” This puts the emphasis on the player. However, I would add that While I have never met a genuine craftsman that used poor tools, great quality tools won’t make you a craftsman.

 I should know. I always prefer to buy good quality gear and MGS has informed every choice I have made in the bag, but I still need to practice diligently, take lessons and play as much as I can to try to whittle away at my handicap. And I still really suck  but can’t help but love this fascinating frustrating game. 

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The old saw is:”It’s a poor craftsman that blames his tools.” This puts the emphasis on the player. However, I would add that While I have never met a genuine craftsman that used poor tools, great quality tools won’t make you a craftsman.
 I should know. I always prefer to buy good quality gear and MGS has informed every choice I have made in the bag, but I still need to practice diligently, take lessons and play as much as I can to try to whittle away at my handicap. And I still really suck  but can’t help but love this fascinating frustrating game. 


I certainly agree that it is more the Indian but I think the point is well taken that the “wrong” tools make the task more difficult or as the MGS ball test showed, impossible.

You’d need to define good quality gear. Every player on tour uses “good quality gear” and I’d probably quit playing if I were forced to game much of it. In fact I’d be much better off with a set of lady Warrior clubs than what Tiger Woods has in his bag.

Irons that are too upright will cause me to hit the ball left, I will start to adjust and all of a sudden swing flaws will develop - how do I know? Because I’ve been there, done that.

So while I think that I can quantify 3-5 strokes to properly fit equipment it’s probably a higher percentage than that. Could it be 85/15? 70/30? That’s where I’m uncertain.

I know this - the call is huge - not so much the what (although clearly not Callaway) but that it’s the same all season and urethane. Could I shout a 75 with a non urethane ball - of course but over the long haul I’m going to face shots that require that spin around the green -

This isn’t about 18 holes - it’s about the season or two or three. (I generally get two seasons out of driver and 3 out of my irons). BTW in the category of making people jealous I almost never change putters. :)


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Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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I'm a bit late into this discussion. Where initially I was convinced it's the Indian, now I'll concede it's a combination. As an example when I got fitted earlier this month one of my complaints was that I was terribly inconsistent with my hybrids and 3 wood.  The fitter put me into a 5 and 9 wood and new hybrids and now I'm consistently launching the ball well. Where before I had trepidation when I pulled out my 3 wood or 19* hybrid - now I immediately go for the 5 or 9 wood with a high level of confidence. 

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:ping-small: G410 SFT driver 

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:ping-small:  410  Hybrids 22*, 26*

Cobra Speed Zone 6-GP/Recoil ESX 460 F3 Shafts 

:titelist-small: SM7 54* Wedge

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I thought about this thread warming up yesterday. My friend just got a new set of Sub 70 639’s. He is 2 degrees upright and has a driver swing speed of a bit above 100. His irons are stiff steel shafts.

I’m 2 degrees flat and have a driver swing speed of 95 (between S and R) and prefer graphite.

So I hit his irons and surprise surprise every shot went 15 yards left (2 degrees up v. 2 degrees flat makes a difference.)

Beyond a doubt I could figure out how to hit them straight but why and what adjustments might I have to make that could lead to bad habits?


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Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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I thought about this thread warming up yesterday. My friend just got a new set of Sub 70 639’s. He is 2 degrees upright and has a driver swing speed of a bit above 100. His irons are stiff steel shafts.  

I’m 2 degrees flat and have a driver swing speed of 95 (between S and R) and prefer graphite.

 

So I hit his irons and surprise surprise every shot went 15 yards left (2 degrees up v. 2 degrees flat makes a difference.)

 

Beyond a doubt I could figure out how to hit them straight but why and what adjustments might I have to make that could lead to bad habits?

 

 

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Lie board says 2 degrees flat, actually hitting a ball tells me standard lie. No wonder I miss right all the time.

 

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:cleveland-small: - Launcher Turbo 2 hybrid

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:cleveland-small: - CBX 52 and 56

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 Lie board says 2 degrees flat, actually hitting a ball tells me standard lie. No wonder I miss right all the time.
 



Could easily be - you could always have played standard and your swing developed in that way - that’s why static fittings need to be coupled with actually hitting shots.



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  • Like 4

Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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49 minutes ago, revkev said:

 

 


Could easily be - you could always have played standard and your swing developed in that way - that’s why static fittings need to be coupled with actually hitting shots.



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Does anyone do static fittings any more? Does anyone use a lie board? 

I haven’t been measured for height, wrist to floor or grip size in more than a decade including several ping fittings and we know how much they were into static fittings.

i haven’t seen a lie board used in at least 2 years if not longer.

I think this could be true for many golfers who are self taught and bought off the shelf and fitters use what they see (ball flight, club delivery, lm numbers) and maybe some form of lie check (lie board, marker line on ball) to fit the golfer.  Our brains will make adjustments to what we see feel to swing how we feel comfortable or what we perceive needs to be done to hit a good shot.

quick example from a titleist Thursday fitting for the 917 driver. We went they several shafts and lofts including adapter settings. After we got dialed in and found the best combo the fitter says to me you are my last appointment, do you have a few minutes to make some more swings for me? I told him yeah I’m good. He take the driver adjusts the adapter to a more upright setting (told me not to look at adapter till afterwards). I take 5 swings and he says thanks, then tells me what he did and that I completely changed my swing to compensate for what I was seeing at address and the the results of the first swing 

  • Like 5

Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Does anyone do static fittings any more? Does anyone use a lie board? 
I haven’t been measured for height, wrist to floor or grip size in more than a decade including several ping fittings and we know how much they were into static fittings.
i haven’t seen a lie board used in at least 2 years if not longer.
I think this could be true for many golfers who are self taught and bought off the shelf and fitters use what they see (ball flight, club delivery, lm numbers) and maybe some form of lie check (lie board, marker line on ball) to fit the golfer.  Our brains will make adjustments to what we see feel to swing how we feel comfortable or what we perceive needs to be done to hit a good shot.
quick example from a titleist Thursday fitting for the 917 driver. We went they several shafts and lofts including adapter settings. After we got dialed in and found the best combo the fitter says to me you are my last appointment, do you have a few minutes to make some more swings for me? I told him yeah I’m good. He take the driver adjusts the adapter to a more upright setting (told me not to look at adapter till afterwards). I take 5 swings and he says thanks, then tells me what he did and that I completely changed my swing to compensate for what I was seeing at address and the the results of the first swing 

When I done my fitting for the Cobras they measured me and I hit off the lie board. The fitter didn’t want me to look at the loft of whatever I was hitting, or the shaft. Said we have preconceived expectations when we see what we’re hitting. Made sense to me so I didn’t look.


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  • Like 6

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Well I get to put all of this to the test when I have my Ping fitting on Tuesday. You will be able to read all about it on that thread once it comes up.

Plus I decided to drop some of my own coin and get fitted for irons and driver that day, too. After all I have picked up 10 mph in driver clubhead speed. I see it in driver in that I’m much longer but equipment wise I see it most in irons where I really need to scale back my swing or I’m totally out of sync. I can hit them okay but it’s way too much work at this point.


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  • Like 6

Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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I remember playing golf in high school and one day the coach went up the range and hit all of our drivers.  We all had different clubs, different flex etc... Coach gave it a waggle and no matter the club just piped one straight up the middle.  Ever since then I knew it was the "indian".... that doesn't stop me from buying new clubs all the time tho, lol. 

  • Like 4

:ping-small:   :taylormade-small:   :srixon-small:   :cleveland-small:   :wilson_staff_small:   :OnCore:
'16 Taylormade M2 9.5*
Srixon F65 4W 17*
Ping G Crossover 18*
Ping G Crossover 24*
Taylormade RSI2 6-PW
Taylormade Milled Grind 52* (bent to 50)
Cleveland Zipcore 56*
Wilson Staff Infinite Southside
Oncore Elixr

 

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