Wildthing Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 (edited) This is again for those mainly interested in the biomechanics of the golf swing (ie. what is going on rather than how). Just thought it might interest others who are trying to figure out what many of the pros are doing to drive that ball 300+ yards. Lets use DJ as an example about optimising clubhead speed. The secret to his high clubhead speed seems to fit in with physics. 1. From Image 1 to just before image 3 , he has somehow made biomechanical movements that have created a hand path on a 'straightish' path (or an arc with a long radius). 2. Along this 'straightish' path , he has increased his hand speed as much as he can. 3. He has retained left 'wrist cock' angle (angle between shaft and forearm) from top of backswing to just before image 3 (where one can see the 'release' of that angle happening- increasing). Physics proves that more wrist cock before a 'natural' release , the faster the clubhead speed. 4. The 'natural release' of that angle happens due to 'pseudo CF forces', because he has performed biomechanical moves that change his hand path from straightish to a more curved path. His wrists just before image 3 act as oily hinges and he is basically letting the 'momentum' of the clubhead (ie. evoked by pseudo Centrifugal Forces) uncock his wrists (ie. a natural release). A simple 'imperfect' analogy of point 4 is like driving in a car (ie. your hands) on a straight road increasing your speed and then taking a very tight corner turn. Any objects (ie. the clubhead ) in the back seat will go sliding across the seat very fast. The counterintuitive part is that his 'wrists/hands' end up actually restricting the 'angular velocity' of the clubhead because it is rotating faster than the hands can keep up. This is proven by physics which says that forward shaft bend into impact means 'negative torque' at the hands (see image below). So now we know what DJ's hands are doing , the puzzle is figuring out 'how' he is moving his body parts to create the dynamics and geometry of his 'hand speed/path'. Obviously , the above is just about creating clubhead speed and not the biomechanics involved in squaring the clubface (a different matter altogether). So has anyone got any ideas how DJ creates that straight path in the downswing? PS. I thought it would be a good idea to show the hand path of Bobby Jones (in red below) which shows a more circular hand path , where he also had an 'earlier' natural release. He couldn't replicate the hand path of DJ because of the limitations on the strength of hickory shafts . If he tried stressing the shaft using DJ's hand path (ie. straight path and then speedy acute 'corner turn') the shaft would have broken. Edited May 18, 2019 by Wildthing twyatt700, 03trdblack and SFLOrange 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shankster Posted May 19, 2019 Share Posted May 19, 2019 I have no idea what your saying. But it’s cool.My though on DJ getting the straight path is because belly button is facing the target before his club is anywhere near the ball. That 4D model of him today at the PGA was nuts. If I tried to turn that fast, far, and powerful I’d be in a wheel chair.Has to be a super hero, that’s the only way to explain it. Hailstorm13, Plumbob, DrRob1963 and 4 others 2 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted May 19, 2019 Author Share Posted May 19, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, Shankster said: I have no idea what your saying. But it’s cool. My though on DJ getting the straight path is because belly button is facing the target before his club is anywhere near the ball. That 4D model of him today at the PGA was nuts. If I tried to turn that fast, far, and powerful I’d be in a wheel chair. Has to be a super hero, that’s the only way to explain it. There is a possible explanation for that straight path but its a set of moves that I cannot do without being put into traction . Cameron Champ does it too: Look at : a. Their left shoulder b. Their upper right arm c. Their right lateral side bend d. Their right elbow. To get that straight path they do the below almost simultaneously: 1. Pull their left shoulder towards target (this helps brings their left arm down) 2. Adduct their upper right arm towards their right side ( also helps bring the left arm down) 3. Pitch their right elbow towards their right hip (shallows their downswing plane and also stops their right arm getting blocked behind their torso) 4. Perform a lateral side bend (also helps shallow the downswing plane ) Basically , both DJ and Cameron are performing moves that help create that straighter downswing path and also shallow out their downswing planes (at the same time). So much more complex and requires great flexibility but also puts a great deal of strain on the spine. Bobby Jones didn't do the above and I can imagine he never had too many back problems, contrary to what I've heard about Cameron Champ who is already suffering bulging discs at such a young age. PS. Just been looking at Wikipedia about Bobby Jones to see if he did have back problems as a player . He actually died of a back related disorder. What a sad tragic end for him and his family: Incapacity and death In 1948, Jones was diagnosed with syringomyelia, a fluid-filled cavity in the spinal cord that causes crippling pain, then paralysis; he was eventually restricted to a wheelchair. He died in Atlanta on December 18, 1971, three days after converting to Catholicism. Jones was baptized on his deathbed by Monsignor John D. Stapleton, pastor of the Cathedral of Christ the King in Atlanta, and attended by the Jones family was buried in Atlanta's historic Oakland Cemetery. Jones was inducted into the World Golf Hall of Fame in 1974. His widow Mary died less than four years later in 1975 at age 72, following the death of their son, Robert T. Jones III, of a heart attack in 1973 at age 47.Daughter Clara died in 1994 at age 68. Edited May 19, 2019 by Wildthing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted August 30, 2020 Author Share Posted August 30, 2020 (edited) Been looking at the physics of the swing for a few years now and things have changed . I first though that the sudden change in the hand path caused the increase in clubhead speed but its just an enabler to create tension in the shaft. In fact , its the pull on the club that creates the clubhead speed (Duh!) . What's really happening in simplistic terms is the clubhead is made to move in one direction (ie. hands start it down and outwards away from the target) but then the hands start moving in another direction (down and out targetwards), this creates tension in the club and pulls at the clubhead (ie. centre of mass) accelerating it . This increased tension in the shaft also pulls on the hands/arms slowing it , therefore there is an exchange of energy from the arms to the club (the hands acting as a conduit). But obviously , there is no point just creating speed , one has to ensure the club orbits around the wrists so the alignment of the club in space becomes more vertical so that the clubface can hit the ball. So you have to ensure your hands go up and allow the wrists to uncock and your forearms to swivel enough to get the clubface on the ball. So basically the increased speed is due to the actual pull/push on the club , while that acute change in hand path does assist in increasing tension in the shaft and a pull force on the clubhead but it also has to move in such a way as to redirect that clubface to the ball . Hope this makes sense. So maybe a good thought to create speed is to pull the club along the the line of the shaft , create as much curvilinear speed as possible before changing your hands direction (to increase the speed even more) before allowing your wrists to uncock and your forearms to swivel and square the clubface. Edited August 30, 2020 by Wildthing RichardWStevens 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardWStevens Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 @WildthingI've just discovered this feel that started with "pressure on the handle" trying to get more shaft lean, hands ahead, etc. This led to awareness of needing handle pressure at the top as I started the downswing. This explanation you give is perfect for explaining what I'm feeling in my swing that is giving me unbelievable results in accuracy and distance. It also reminded me of the "pulling the arrow out of the quiver" feel I never related to until NOW. Of course squaring and delofting the face is a matter of performing any number of feels as you start down too e.g. Hogan Roll, right thumb pressure on the left thumb, turning your right palm down towards the ball, turning the shaft down, turning the thumbs down, etc etc. Thank you again for your explanation. richardwstevens@me.com From Wildthing: Been looking at the physics of the swing for a few years now and things have changed . I first though that the sudden change in the hand path caused the increase in clubhead speed but its just an enabler to create tension in the shaft. In fact , its the pull on the club that creates the clubhead speed (Duh!) . What's really happening in simplistic terms is the clubhead is made to move in one direction (ie. hands start it down and outwards away from the target) but then the hands start moving in another direction (down and out targetwards), this creates tension in the club and pulls at the clubhead (ie. centre of mass) accelerating it . This increased tension in the shaft also pulls on the hands/arms slowing it , therefore there is an exchange of energy from the arms to the club (the hands acting as a conduit). But obviously , there is no point just creating speed , one has to ensure the club orbits around the wrists so the alignment of the club in space becomes more vertical so that the clubface can hit the ball. So you have to ensure your hands go up and allow the wrists to uncock and your forearms to swivel enough to get the clubface on the ball. So basically the increased speed is due to the actual pull/push on the club , while that acute change in hand path does assist in increasing tension in the shaft and a pull force on the clubhead but it also has to move in such a way as to redirect that clubface to the ball . Hope this makes sense. So maybe a good thought to create speed is to pull the club along the the line of the shaft , create as much curvilinear speed as possible before changing your hands direction (to increase the speed even more) before allowing your wrists to uncock and your forearms to swivel and square the clubface. Edited August 30, 2020 by Wildthing Quote Rick Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted October 21, 2021 Author Share Posted October 21, 2021 On 8/16/2021 at 10:13 AM, RichardWStevens said: @WildthingI've just discovered this feel that started with "pressure on the handle" trying to get more shaft lean, hands ahead, etc. This led to awareness of needing handle pressure at the top as I started the downswing. This explanation you give is perfect for explaining what I'm feeling in my swing that is giving me unbelievable results in accuracy and distance. It also reminded me of the "pulling the arrow out of the quiver" feel I never related to until NOW. Of course squaring and delofting the face is a matter of performing any number of feels as you start down too e.g. Hogan Roll, right thumb pressure on the left thumb, turning your right palm down towards the ball, turning the shaft down, turning the thumbs down, etc etc. Thank you again for your explanation. richardwstevens@me.com From Wildthing: Been looking at the physics of the swing for a few years now and things have changed . I first though that the sudden change in the hand path caused the increase in clubhead speed but its just an enabler to create tension in the shaft. In fact , its the pull on the club that creates the clubhead speed (Duh!) . What's really happening in simplistic terms is the clubhead is made to move in one direction (ie. hands start it down and outwards away from the target) but then the hands start moving in another direction (down and out targetwards), this creates tension in the club and pulls at the clubhead (ie. centre of mass) accelerating it . This increased tension in the shaft also pulls on the hands/arms slowing it , therefore there is an exchange of energy from the arms to the club (the hands acting as a conduit). But obviously , there is no point just creating speed , one has to ensure the club orbits around the wrists so the alignment of the club in space becomes more vertical so that the clubface can hit the ball. So you have to ensure your hands go up and allow the wrists to uncock and your forearms to swivel enough to get the clubface on the ball. So basically the increased speed is due to the actual pull/push on the club , while that acute change in hand path does assist in increasing tension in the shaft and a pull force on the clubhead but it also has to move in such a way as to redirect that clubface to the ball . Hope this makes sense. So maybe a good thought to create speed is to pull the club along the the line of the shaft , create as much curvilinear speed as possible before changing your hands direction (to increase the speed even more) before allowing your wrists to uncock and your forearms to swivel and square the clubface. Edited August 30, 2020 by Wildthing Hi Richard - sorry for the delay in replying as I've been busy with other issues for many months . I'm glad that I have provided some information that has been useful to you. Regards Wildthing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted May 18, 2022 Author Share Posted May 18, 2022 (edited) This a bit of a techy post so won't make much sense to non-science forum members and it probably won't help improve your swing but might give you a different perspective of what could be happening. Been looking at some other stuff that the biomechanic experts have previously published and found some very strange things that didn't make much sense. This a video from Dr Sasho MacKenzie called 'Intro to Club Kinetics' and provided an example of the theorised hand forces that could be expected at the start of the downswing. So at the top of the backswing the right hand is pushing up more than the left hand is pulling down . This is true because the COM goes up as shown in Adam Scott downswing image below. The lead hand is pulling down with 190N which is about 43 lbs force which is quite large (imagine a weight of 3 stone approx). But the trail hand is pushing up with 200N which is about 45 lbs force and that seems difficult to comprehend. The trail hand is also supporting the weight of the 2 arms and the club which weigh approx 22lbs while also pushing up on the grip with an extra 23 lbs force. So Adam Scott is theoretically applying a total upwards force of 3+ stone weight which takes quite a lot of strength to do, even for a very small amount of time (ie. at the very start of the downswing). I've tried lifting my 22lb dumbbell over my head with a bent trail arm and found it almost impossible to do with just my shoulder girdle muscles . So, it does suggest that the whole upper torso also being utilised to help lever the bent trail arm/hand upwards for a short amount of time. Apparently, that extra trail hand force helps the club retain the lag angle between the lead arm and clubshaft preventing early casting/release. Again, this is non-intuitive because one would think that pulling with the lead hand while extra pushing with the trail hand would cause the club to cast (as if there was a pivot between the middle of the hands on the grip like a seesaw). See the graph (a) below which show the forces applied across the grip in the downswing by the right and left hand of a pro golfer (using sensors inserted in a specialised grip handle). Note that some of these graphs have been critically reviewed by Dave Tutelman in the below link (so the results could be questionable). Opening the loop -- instrumented grips (tutelman.com) For clarity I used a GEARS avatar and drew the forces and torques that each hand was theoretically applying ACROSS grip at the start of the downswing for this specific pro golfer being measured. The red force is the right hand push up across the grip while it's also applying a torque/twist in the clockwise direction, whereas the left hand (yellow force/torque arrows) is pulling down and also applying its own torque/twist in an anticlockwise direction. Note that I haven't shown the ultra important axial forces (reflected by graph 'b ) that are applied along the shaft which are mainly responsible for generating clubhead speed up to the point of release. When I look at the image above, it almost seems that the right hand is pushing the fleshy pad (ie. under the right thumb) against the left thumb but also using the fingers of the right hand to help retain clubhead lag angle with the lead arm. Basically the hands are working against each other with the left hand looking like it's trying to cast the club while the right hand is preventing it from doing so, but both could theoretically assist in applying forces more along the shaft at the same time. This particular golfer is primarily trying to pull the grip off the shaft in the downswing , while the right hand is being allowed to just get dragged along (see graph 'b'). Anyhow, this is just theoretical until more detailed research is conducted on a much larger sample of golfers rather than just a single pro golfer. As I implied before, this may not help with your golf swing, but it might change your perception on how it theoretically works. Edited May 18, 2022 by Wildthing ejgaudette 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higherplane Posted May 18, 2022 Share Posted May 18, 2022 This is quite interesting. Thanks. It would seem for these guys that further in the swing there is pull from left hip around as well as possibly right shoulder. Quote All Fitted-- Driver - 2017 Callaway Epic Subzero 10.5d (same as Kevin Na), 3 Wood -2017 Epic Subzero 15d, 3 Hybrid Mavrik, X-forged 4-PW, Wedges Callaway 4 52-56-60, Odyssey Toulon Chicago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IONEPUTT Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 I just watched the 16 minute video by Dr. Sasho Mackenzie and while I think i understood what he was saying I'm pretty sure I did NOT learn anything that I can take to the driving range to use to gain any clubhead speed. The Dr. provided lots of science but I'm not sure he provided any helpful infomation on HOW to swing the clubhead faster. I also have to ask YOU golfer here if you have ever "Pushed" UP with your right hand during the down swng? Pushing up with the right hand is what he is telling us that we all do and this pushing up is what causes the clubhead to go up. I'm pretty sure I have NEVER pushed up with my right hand when I swing the club. Mostly my right hand just goes along for the ride. Is there something that I missed watching his video? Could it be that when the left hand pulls down and the right hand stays at the same level, the left hand pulling down causes the head of the club to go up as the club pivots around the point between the two hands? That would be my bet. Has anyone here gained any knowledge about how the forces work in the swing that you can take to the range to use? I'm pretty sure I have not. Quote All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP043 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 37 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said: Has anyone here gained any knowledge about how the forces work in the swing that you can take to the range to use? I'm pretty sure I have not. First, what each of us feels is almost never what is actually happening. When we go to the range, or take a lesson, we're hoping to find a feel that gets us doing the right thing, or making a positive change. It doesn't matter that you have never felt that "pushing up" with the right hand, its probably happening all on its own. The forces that make us rotate our hips come from the ground (they can't come from anywhere else, really), but we might get that rotation correct through a feel of rotation. So to me, I want my instructor to understand all of the stuff about forces in the golf swing. That should help him in finding the feels that get me swinging better, but I don't need the knowledge of those forces. AndySP 1 Quote Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X 52, 56, and 60 wedges B60 G5i putter Right handed Reston, Virginia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted May 20, 2022 Author Share Posted May 20, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, IONEPUTT said: I just watched the 16 minute video by Dr. Sasho Mackenzie and while I think i understood what he was saying I'm pretty sure I did NOT learn anything that I can take to the driving range to use to gain any clubhead speed. The Dr. provided lots of science but I'm not sure he provided any helpful infomation on HOW to swing the clubhead faster. I also have to ask YOU golfer here if you have ever "Pushed" UP with your right hand during the down swng? Pushing up with the right hand is what he is telling us that we all do and this pushing up is what causes the clubhead to go up. I'm pretty sure I have NEVER pushed up with my right hand when I swing the club. Mostly my right hand just goes along for the ride. Is there something that I missed watching his video? Could it be that when the left hand pulls down and the right hand stays at the same level, the left hand pulling down causes the head of the club to go up as the club pivots around the point between the two hands? That would be my bet. Has anyone here gained any knowledge about how the forces work in the swing that you can take to the range to use? I'm pretty sure I have not. I personally have never actively tried to push up with the trail hand during the downswing, but maybe the upper body pivot rotates the framework unit of 'left arm/hinged wrist & folded trail arm/extended wrist' transferring some component of force (via the trail arm/hand) across the grip. I looked at Will Zalatoris swing in this video below and the COM of the club doesn't seem to go up at all during the downswing and quite different to Adam Scott. Maybe that's because Adam Scott pivots more in his backswing and gets his club shaft past horizontal. The Sasho MacKenzie video seems to offer a qualitative explanation of what forces cause the release of the golf swing. It's basically the net eccentric force applied across the grip (mainly a pull force via the lead arm) that helps angularly accelerate the club with no active wrist torque. Actually, the net wrist torque becomes negative in the later downswing which means the hands are being angularly dragged around approaching impact (because they cannot keep up with the increasing rotational speed of the club). There is a more detailed vimeo video below that offers a clearer explanation and also shows that the 'up' force (applied theoretically by the trail hand) can actually assist in the retention of the lag angle between shaft and lead arm in the early downswing. With regards how to increase clubhead speed , Dr Mackenzie has produced an article about that. How Amateur Golfers Deliver Energy to the Driver | Published in International Journal of Golf Science (golfsciencejournal.org) It's a long slog trying to read through all this stuff but basically most clubhead speed is caused by linear forces applied to the grip along the hand path. If I was trying to apply these 'linear force' ideas to increasing clubhead speed, I would personally be trying to feel as if I was pulling the grip off the shaft all the way through the downswing and through impact. Edited May 20, 2022 by Wildthing ejgaudette 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted May 20, 2022 Author Share Posted May 20, 2022 (edited) Found another interesting graph from one of Dr Kwon's you-tube videos (which seem to be attracting a lot of attention). You'll have to see the whole video to understand the swing events and phases. It portrays a typical swing graph pattern from golfers recorded on his 3D system (operating at 1000 Hz frequency). The section of the graph that I found interesting was between the 2 yellow pointer arrows (which I inserted myself) between the top of the backswing (TB) to just before lead arm horizontal in the downswing (EDA or P5 ). You can see that the angular velocity graphs of the shoulder line (SL) , Upper lead arm (UL) and the Club are all rotating virtually together as a unit up to the 'Release' point where the lead wrist starts to uncock. You can also see that 'Release' (uncocking of the lead wrist) at MC position starts happening just before lead arm horizontal (EDA/P5) and there doesn't seem to be much holding of the lag angle to later in the downswing. Maybe Jack Nicklaus was right when he said "you can't release the club too soon". I'm guessing you have to give yourself enough time to allow energy to be transferred to the club so it can angularly accelerate and optimise clubhead speed before impact. Personally, I can't even get my lead arm too far above horizontal in the backswing, so my ability to create lots of linear force in the early downswing using my upper body pivot is limited. I don't have much choice as I get older and less flexible but to use my shoulder girdle muscles more but still with the intention of pulling the grip off the shaft in the downswing in the early downswing to optimise the use of linear forces (ie. aligned more with the COM of the club). Edited May 20, 2022 by Wildthing ejgaudette 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejgaudette Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 I enjoyed these even if I can't full understand them. I found this video from Crossfield that I think can help show how information like what @Wildthing is sharing gets trickled down from this advanced theory to coaches on the cutting edge, to coaches more on the front lines. They talk about creating depth and width in the swing and Mark even demos the want to move the hands up and away while the front side moves closer to the target as an exaggerated move. This idea I think is a bit more of the practical application of some of what has been shared above. Really interesting to see how swing coaching evolves. From cupped wrists are the best position at the top to now everyone wants a flat or bowed wrist. Wildthing, fixyurdivot and Plumbob 3 Quote Epic Max LS 9° Ventus Blue 6X (2021 Official Review) Epic Speed 15° Smoke iM10 60g 6.0 | Epic Speed 18° Evenflow Riptide 70g 6.0 816 H1 21° Diamana S+ Blue 70 S | JPX 919 HM Pro 5-PW Pro Tour Spec 115i S Glide 4.0 50°.12°S/54°.14°W/58°.6°T PING Z-Z115 Wedge Flex | SOFT 11S Super Stroke Mid-Slim 2.0 Hoofer Bag | Pro V1 | Right Handed | Tracked by V3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted May 20, 2022 Author Share Posted May 20, 2022 Here's another Mark Crossfield video demonstrating that what he's learnt regarding ground reaction forces seems to have changed his golf swing and significantly increased his clubhead speed. ejgaudette, Plumbob and fixyurdivot 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejgaudette Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Wildthing said: Here's another Mark Crossfield video demonstrating that what he's learnt regarding ground reaction forces seems to have changed his golf swing and significantly increased his clubhead speed. Yes another great one and love the technical details. Right not that anyone would be on course thinking about their vertical forces, but it helps refine feels and moves that will achieve the goal set out by the bio-mechanics. Wildthing 1 Quote Epic Max LS 9° Ventus Blue 6X (2021 Official Review) Epic Speed 15° Smoke iM10 60g 6.0 | Epic Speed 18° Evenflow Riptide 70g 6.0 816 H1 21° Diamana S+ Blue 70 S | JPX 919 HM Pro 5-PW Pro Tour Spec 115i S Glide 4.0 50°.12°S/54°.14°W/58°.6°T PING Z-Z115 Wedge Flex | SOFT 11S Super Stroke Mid-Slim 2.0 Hoofer Bag | Pro V1 | Right Handed | Tracked by V3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixyurdivot Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 On 5/20/2022 at 7:04 AM, ejgaudette said: I enjoyed these even if I can't full understand them. I found this video from Crossfield that I think can help show how information like what @Wildthing is sharing gets trickled down from this advanced theory to coaches on the cutting edge, to coaches more on the front lines. They talk about creating depth and width in the swing and Mark even demos the want to move the hands up and away while the front side moves closer to the target as an exaggerated move. This idea I think is a bit more of the practical application of some of what has been shared above. Really interesting to see how swing coaching evolves. From cupped wrists are the best position at the top to now everyone wants a flat or bowed wrist. I just watched a Golf Channel "lessons" episode with Padraig Harrington and how he practices doing the Happy Gilmore two step hit drill to reinforce that lateral power move feeling. Don't know about you, but I think getting lessons from Paddy would be an absolute blast. https://www.golfchannel.com/video/best-lessons-ever-driver-preview-padraig-harrington ejgaudette 1 Quote G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w ZX5 Irons 4-AW Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW (removed from double secret probation ) ER5v Putter (Evnroll ER5v Official Review) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted May 23, 2022 Author Share Posted May 23, 2022 (edited) 19 hours ago, fixyurdivot said: I just watched a Golf Channel "lessons" episode with Padraig Harrington and how he practices doing the Happy Gilmore two step hit drill to reinforce that lateral power move feeling. Don't know about you, but I think getting lessons from Paddy would be an absolute blast. https://www.golfchannel.com/video/best-lessons-ever-driver-preview-padraig-harrington Dr Kwon explains how lateral movement horizontal ground reaction forces could be a factor to increasing angular momentum in the golfer, but no-one has confirmed 100% how a 'Happy Gilmore' type lateral motion (or even vertical ground reaction force) gets somehow transformed to optimal forces applied by/via the hands to the grip of the club which will ultimately increase clubhead speed. We seem to see patterns in ground reaction forces (like in the Mark Crossfield video) , that if somehow changed does seem to increase clubhead speed, so maybe it doesn't matter but I'd like to know the physics involved. Maybe the lateral motion is a precursor to increased vertical ground reaction force but what exactly is happening? How does it effect the timing, magnitude and direction of the forces applied via the hands on the grip? If we knew, then maybe golf instruction could be targeted better. PS. Even if we increased our clubhead speed , it won't guarantee we will hit the ball solidly, so it all has to be matched up. Edited May 23, 2022 by Wildthing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixyurdivot Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Wildthing said: Dr Kwon explains how lateral movement horizontal ground reaction forces could be a factor to increasing angular momentum in the golfer, but no-one has confirmed 100% how a 'Happy Gilmore' type lateral motion (or even vertical ground reaction force) gets somehow transformed to optimal forces applied by/via the hands to the grip of the club which will ultimately increase clubhead speed. We seem to see patterns in ground reaction forces (like in the Mark Crossfield video) , that if somehow changed does seem to increase clubhead speed, so maybe it doesn't matter but I'd like to know the physics involved. Maybe the lateral motion is a precursor to increased vertical ground reaction force but what exactly is happening? How does it effect the timing, magnitude and direction of the forces applied via the hands on the grip? If we knew, then maybe golf instruction could be targeted better. PS. Even if we increased our clubhead speed , it won't guarantee we will hit the ball solidly, so it all has to be matched up. Just guessing here but feel that many players (self included) loose power from two non-optimal motions or lack of motion. First that the hands get raised just as the downswing begins, from the "over-the-top" move so many have, and second is the failure to get the hips cleared/turned and the belt buckle aimed at the target at the end of the swing. I see Padraig's drill as a way of emphasizing that turn/motion memory. Note that he also emphasizes holding the finish which I think targets not leaving the hands stuck behind. To your last point, absolutely correct. high swing speed + incorrect face path = deep woods. Ever notice why so many instructors have students do the 1/2-3/4 swing drills and how much better both the ball striking and aim is when doing so? It seems that last part of our backswings are where most poor strike problems begin. It's like "no man's land" back there... where an otherwise near perfect takeaway and pending great ball strike goes down the crapper. All of the swing kinematics stuff you've shared is pretty interesting and my engineering background/career helps me get most of it. But, if I start thinking about that level of detail during practice or play the results won't be good. ejgaudette and oz7177 2 Quote G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w ZX5 Irons 4-AW Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW (removed from double secret probation ) ER5v Putter (Evnroll ER5v Official Review) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted May 23, 2022 Author Share Posted May 23, 2022 2 hours ago, fixyurdivot said: Just guessing here but feel that many players (self included) loose power from two non-optimal motions or lack of motion. First that the hands get raised just as the downswing begins, from the "over-the-top" move so many have, and second is the failure to get the hips cleared/turned and the belt buckle aimed at the target at the end of the swing. I see Padraig's drill as a way of emphasizing that turn/motion memory. Note that he also emphasizes holding the finish which I think targets not leaving the hands stuck behind. To your last point, absolutely correct. high swing speed + incorrect face path = deep woods. Ever notice why so many instructors have students do the 1/2-3/4 swing drills and how much better both the ball striking and aim is when doing so? It seems that last part of our backswings are where most poor strike problems begin. It's like "no man's land" back there... where an otherwise near perfect takeaway and pending great ball strike goes down the crapper. All of the swing kinematics stuff you've shared is pretty interesting and my engineering background/career helps me get most of it. But, if I start thinking about that level of detail during practice or play the results won't be good. Agreed, I don't think about this stuff when I swing and nor does Dr Sasho Mackenzie who basically uses external focus cues (he's a pretty good golfer). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IONEPUTT Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 I watched the Mark Crossfield video and didn't learn a thing. Then I watched a second one where he was taking a lesson from Mark Bull, and it that video I learned what Mark Bull was having Crossfield doing, And that was when I learned HOW Crossfield had changed his swing and how he had increased his swing speed. The second video was well worth the time and I will be watching more of Mr. Bulls videos in the future to see what I can learn from him and with any luck I can use his instruction and add a few more MPH's to my swing speed soon. I would love to get my 105-108 MPH up to over 110 on a steady basis and enjoy the added distance off the tee. I've been up over 120 a few times but it was only a FEW times so learning how to do it on command would be great way to kick off a new golf season this spring. Quote All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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