Optimising Clubhead Speed - Is this the real way?

[RickyBobby_PR]

12 minutes ago, MacTourney said:

Naturally yes,  as it has no choice but to shallow if continuing to move correctly.  It's all about a matchup, or like we say in car shops don't put a Ford head on a Chevy block, it may run but the timing won't last long and will shake your fillings loose. 

Correct. Monte talks about this with the what he calls cast a. If you do that move without turning it’s a cast like what many amateurs do. When combined with a turn it’s a shallowing move that all the better players make.

If the sequence is off especially to start the swing everything is a compensation for where the club face is.

We all make compensations in the swing including guys like DJ, Brooks, Adam Scott. They just have fewer of them and more time to practice so they become more repeatable. 

[Donn lost in San Diego]

I also find some, a lot, of this contradictory or elusive.  Someone with a long thin arm has different angles than short stubby thick arm.   Shoulders are different.  Hips too.  Rory and Phil roll up and down when they walk, indicating pretty loose hip joints.  Koepka doesn't roll.  you have to practice and figure out what your body can do.

[Wildthing]

On 8/6/2022 at 8:04 AM, Donn lost in San Diego said:

I also find some, a lot, of this contradictory or elusive.  Someone with a long thin arm has different angles than short stubby thick arm.   Shoulders are different.  Hips too.  Rory and Phil roll up and down when they walk, indicating pretty loose hip joints.  Koepka doesn't roll.  you have to practice and figure out what your body can do.

True but whatever your body shape/size you can still try and keep the club 'On Plane' in the downswing (even as it may change) and also try to keep the shaft slightly below your lead arm/hand plane. The trail arm action does seem very similar to skipping a stone (but not the hand release action).

If you look at Hunter Mahan below, his downswing plane is changing from yellow to just below the blue line but if you can still have the club shaft always tracing the ball-target line you will be 'On Plane' throughout the downswing (except when the club is parallel to the ball-target line)

 

Even Bryson has the club shaft slightly below his lead hand plane and is probably using the physics of a passive club squaring torque that I mentioned in a previous post.

Look at video below for Bryson's old & new swing from 6:00- onwards. There is also some useful information about chest/pelvis sway and the timing of shifting weight pressure on the lead leg by P5 (lead arm horizontal in the downswing).

 

Michael Neff is the founder and brainchild of GEARS 3D  and his advice about getting weight pressure on the lead leg by P5 is similar (but not matching exactly) to Dr Sasho MacKenzie's research findings below. Dr Mackenzie claims that the below is an indicator of greater clubhead speed. 

Dr Lynn Scott  'Swing Catalyst' does not find this same pattern for tour pros in his 'Swing Catalyst' database and thinks that Vertical Peak Force (total -not just on lead leg ) happens at P5 between P5 and P6. Michael Neff is probably quoting from the data research by Dr Scott rather than Dr Mackenzie for this particular kinetic pattern that may be a commonality for tour pros.

 

 

Dr Scott Lynn's timing of grf forces.

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 hours ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

I also find some, a lot, of this contradictory or elusive.  Someone with a long thin arm has different angles than short stubby thick arm.   Shoulders are different.  Hips too.  Rory and Phil roll up and down when they walk, indicating pretty loose hip joints.  Koepka doesn't roll.  you have to practice and figure out what your body can do.

Yes each person is going to have differences in their swing. The swing plane is relative to the golfer.

just like a Kenny perry and other stockier golfers will have a tendency to be steeper in transition than others. 
 

Finding the rights stance and swing for each person along with clubs that fit that person and their swing 

[Agwinup]

The Shaft flexing forward st impact has ZERO, I repeat ZERO, to do with release of the wrists. It has to do with the club head catching up to the hands due to the flex of the shaft. Your wrists can't do squat during the swing if done correctly. Or rather, you can't make them do anything do to how weak they are compared to what is needed to actually make a difference. 

[Goober]

Forgive if I’m wrong here. But I watched this video. And this instructor said that all players shallow the club. Maybe even excessively. And seems like he is teaching a steeper move. He was saying how the weight of the club with speed makes it drop on its own. So does that mean that 99% of amateur golfers are extremely strong since they are steep? Maybe some of us are too strong for this game . Haha . maybe I misinterpreted it 

 

 

 

[MacTourney]

On 8/5/2022 at 10:01 AM, Goober said:

How it drops on it own is beyond me. Is it the weight of the club, since focus is more on body motion versus hand and arm motion ?

Weight is certainly a factor but inertia has its role too.  You punch a 67 GTO and it will pin you against the seat back right quick, and will bend that cigarette too.

[MacTourney]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

Forgive if I’m wrong here. But I watched this video. And this instructor said that all players shallow the club. Maybe even excessively. And seems like he is teaching a steeper move. He was saying how the weight of the club with speed makes it drop on its own. So does that mean that 99% of amateur golfers are extremely strong since they are steep? Maybe some of us are too strong for this game . Haha . maybe I misinterpreted it 

The club has to shallow at some point or you'd miss the ball, how and when it shallows is a playable variable.  Players that rotate the club out too quickly from the top will generally run into the steepness hallway.

[Wildthing]

3 hours ago, Agwinup said:

The Shaft flexing forward st impact has ZERO, I repeat ZERO, to do with release of the wrists. It has to do with the club head catching up to the hands due to the flex of the shaft. Your wrists can't do squat during the swing if done correctly. Or rather, you can't make them do anything do to how weak they are compared to what is needed to actually make a difference. 

I'm unsure whether 'rebound' effects due to initial 'toe up shaft bend' at the start of the downswing dissipates before impact. If Dave Tutelman is still viewing these posts, he might be able to confirm.

But this is what he says on his website (link below):

Lessons from ShaftLab - 3 (tutelman.com)

But there is a more likely explanation than rebound, although harder for many people to swallow. By the time the clubhead nears impact, it has so much momentum (that's velocity times mass) that the hands can't rotate fast enough to keep up. So the clubhead is pulling the hands through impact, and bending the shaft forward in the process. It may be hard to believe, but most serious swing models show it is true;

Edited August 7, 2022 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

3 hours ago, Goober said:

Forgive if I’m wrong here. But I watched this video. And this instructor said that all players shallow the club. Maybe even excessively. And seems like he is teaching a steeper move. He was saying how the weight of the club with speed makes it drop on its own. So does that mean that 99% of amateur golfers are extremely strong since they are steep? Maybe some of us are too strong for this game . Haha . maybe I misinterpreted it 

 

 

 

There is a detailed critical analysis of the 'Mike Malaska Move' in the link below

 MalaskaMove (perfectgolfswingreview.net)

Note what he says:

"At no time point during the late downswing does the right palm ever face partially groundwards (as seen in the "Malaska Move").

Actually, the right forearm supinates until just before impact according to Jon Sinclair (see video below - worth viewing it from start to finish).

 

PS. If this is an exaggerated 'feel' drill to cure golfers who have a wide-open face in the mid-late downswing, then it might work for some.  Mike Malaska's actual real golf swing doesn't match his instruction.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Here is the graph that Dr Scott Lynn produced which contradicts Dr Sasho MacKenzie's graph that I recently posted.

 

There isn't any large correlation compared to Dr MacKenzie's graph, so I asked him why.

Here is his reply:

-------------------------------------------

 "I don’t know much about Scott’s data, but I’m not surprised by the results.  I’ve plotted this graph from about 5 different data sets over the years.  Correlations have ranged from about .65 to .91.   The graph below was the highest I’ve seen.

My data has been from a heterogenous group of golfers.  From the graph you can see that I had players swinging below 80 mph.  Scott’s data is all PGA Tour players.  It is less likely to find high correlations in a homogenous sample.  There would be little correlation between height and points per game in the NBA. Yet, we know height is really important in basketball.

Each of the dots in my graph represents the average of many swings by each participant.  I’m not sure how many swings Scott measured per dot."

----------------------------------------------

 

From a personal opinion, I am more inclined to believe that Dr Mackenzie's graph seems more reliable.

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

Here is the graph that Dr Scott Lynn produced which contradicts Dr Sasho MacKenzie's graph that I recently posted.

 

There isn't any large correlation compared to Dr MacKenzie's graph, so I asked him why.

Here is his reply:

-------------------------------------------

 "I don’t know much about Scott’s data, but I’m not surprised by the results.  I’ve plotted this graph from about 5 different data sets over the years.  Correlations have ranged from about .65 to .91.   The graph below was the highest I’ve seen.

My data has been from a heterogenous group of golfers.  From the graph you can see that I had players swinging below 80 mph.  Scott’s data is all PGA Tour players.  It is less likely to find high correlations in a homogenous sample.  There would be little correlation between height and points per game in the NBA. Yet, we know height is really important in basketball.

Each of the dots in my graph represents the average of many swings by each participant.  I’m not sure how many swings Scott measured per dot."

----------------------------------------------

 

From a personal opinion, I am more inclined to believe that Dr Mackenzie's graph seems more reliable.

 

Comfirmation bias

[Wildthing]

Here is an interesting set of tests (devised by Mike Adams/EA Tischler) to determine a golfer's unique leg dominance test. I did mention that research found 2 categories of golfers , Front Foot and Reverse Group but the tests shown below by Dr Scott Lynn using force/pressure plates seems far more useful to 'dial' into your optimal weight pressure shift. I also suspect that this can assist with your ball position placement.

Then look at the 3rd video where they found out the pattern that fitted Molinari the best and created drills for him to help sync up his horizontal/torque/vertical grfs. The improvement in his distance and dispersion seems quite impressive.

This is (imho) where golf biomechanical research can be practically used to help discover the best way to improve a golfer's swing mechanics that suits his/her own body capabilities.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Wildthing

[Goober]

These posts are informative. But how in the world would one supply this vast amount of info into a casual 18 hole round? So much overkill 

[RickyBobby_PR]

48 minutes ago, Goober said:

These posts are informative. But how in the world would one supply this vast amount of info into a casual 18 hole round? So much overkill 

One couldn’t. The information rom Sasho and others are studies that the publish. The normal consumer is anyone who is a golf instructor wanting more info on biomechanics to utilize in their teaching. Or those interested in learning about the swing.

One has to be able to take the data and be able to apply it to the golf swing and how they teach and communicate with their students, or just absorb it if they aren’t a teacher. But even then if you can’t apply it to what you see in a persons swing then it’s just more information that’s not serving a purpose 

[Goober]

37 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

One couldn’t. The information rom Sasho and others are studies that the publish. The normal consumer is anyone who is a golf instructor wanting more info on biomechanics to utilize in their teaching. Or those interested in learning about the swing.

One has to be able to take the data and be able to apply it to the golf swing and how they teach and communicate with their students, or just absorb it if they aren’t a teacher. But even then if you can’t apply it to what you see in a persons swing then it’s just more information that’s not serving a purpose 

Everything always has a time and place. But most of this is overwhelming 

[RickyBobby_PR]

16 minutes ago, Goober said:

Everything always has a time and place. But most of this is overwhelming 

Pretty much a thread like some others to post what he’s read mostly from Sasho and then what others say when given thoughts about the actual movement in the swing.

Saw an Instagram story from AMG yesterday or Friday demonstrating the the arm movement In the transition and combining it with a turn. It was the same move that Monte teaches in cast a from the ntc video series.

[Goober]

4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Pretty much a thread like some others to post what he’s read mostly from Sasho and then what others say when given thoughts about the actual movement in the swing.

Saw an Instagram story from AMG yesterday or Friday demonstrating the the arm movement In the transition and combining it with a turn. It was the same move that Monte teaches in cast a from the ntc video series.

I have to check out that no turn cast drill. Monte sounds like a good chap 

[MacTourney]

6 hours ago, Goober said:

These posts are informative. But how in the world would one supply this vast amount of info into a casual 18 hole round? So much overkill 

They wouldn't, its much ado about nothing much in the grand scheme of things, even for instructors that may use sight and sound primarily over radar, pressure plates, and other such luxuries, but I have no doubt the art v. science debate will continue as long as the game does.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

I have to check out that no turn cast drill. Monte sounds like a good chap 

If you are still taking lessons I would focus on what your instructor is having you do and it bring in outside thoughts, concepts.

Monte is a former long drive champion and a top teaching pro. 

[Wildthing]

Some of Monte Scheinblum's videos resonate with some but not with others.

For example, what he says in this video about the body squaring the club is at odds with what AMG state and doesn't make sense when you look at 3D graphs of tour pro golfers.

 

The squaring of the clubface is mainly lead forearm rotation and not the body pivot.

The 'No Turn Cast' drill is a strange approach where he is assuming a golfer will do the correct movements when being instructed not to do some other movement, which might work for some but not for others.

The casting aspect is where he is purposely instructing the golfer to cast from the top and is opining that the golfer will end up doing the correct movement!!!

 

From a purely physics perspective, attempting to use active firing of wrist torque to release your wrist angles will slow your arm swing and not speed them up.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

The 'No Turn Cast' drill is a strange approach where he is assuming a golfer will do the correct movements when being instructed not to do some other movement, which might work for some but not for others.

The casting aspect is where he is purposely instructing the golfer to cast from the top and is opining that the golfer will end up doing the correct movement!!!

You might want to go spend sometime on his Instagram and check out the cast a drill which I’ve posted several times in various threads or spend the money to buy the no turn cast video series. This way you will see that he’s expanded on this video and teaches the no turn part and the cast a and b.

Btw there’s also a 70 page thread on wrx with a bunch of people who have had success using this original video as well as the video series. Not to mention numerous reviews of people who have worked with Monte over the years that have made significant improvements in their game and their swing.

[Wildthing]

35 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You might want to go spend sometime on his Instagram and check out the cast a drill which I’ve posted several times in various threads or spend the money to buy the no turn cast video series. This way you will see that he’s expanded on this video and teaches the no turn part and the cast a and b.

Btw there’s also a 70 page thread on wrx with a bunch of people who have had success using this original video as well as the video series. Not to mention numerous reviews of people who have worked with Monte over the years that have made significant improvements in their game and their swing.

You said on another thread that AMG and Monte work together and teach the same concepts like the 'no turn cast'. I've just posted 2 videos where their beliefs about squaring the clubface are polar opposites. 

Golfwrx are full of posters marketing Monte's or Tyler Ferrell instruction and if you raise a post debating their integrity, some of the 'shills' collaborate together to get you banned.

Why would I buy a video that has no evidence to back it up apart from the obvious favourable reviews? Prove to me that the no cast drill has improved the mechanics of most of the people who bought Monte's videos. Show me your before and after swing for example.

PS. AMG also ban people who raise comments on their you-tube videos if they dispute some of their cause-and-effect opinions.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Look at this AMG video which was analysed by Dr Jeff Mann.

9:00 - 9:30 minute time point of the video where Mike Granato states that it is a "killer move" to actively adduct the right arm towards the right side of the right mid-upper torso between P4 and P5.5 and to actively drive the right elbow to a pitch location in front of the right hip area by P5.5/P6. They both claim that this "killer move" is not seen in pro golfers.

Here are three examples of pro golfers who actively adduct their right arm close towards the right side of their mid-torso during their early-mid downswing and who have their right elbow in a pitch location near the front of their right hip area at P5.5/P6.

 

DJ / Cameron Champ /Sergio Garcia

Edited August 8, 2022 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Here's another AMG video

 

Again, they are suggesting a drill where the trail palm faces the ground and that is not what is happening in tour pro golf swings. The trail forearm is actually supinating, not pronating until just before impact.

Look at these 3 golfers as an example where the right palm is not facing groundward, and their forearms are supinating.

Adam Scott, Justin Rose and Rory McIlroy

 

And guess what? AMG went full circle and created another video below. Spot the difference between the 2 videos.

PS.

looks like they've 'climbed on board' the TGM concept of 'Flying Wedges' as per the Lynn Blake video I previously posted. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

 

where do you think tiger’s right palm is going to go?

 

[Wildthing]

I've looked at some recent posts from the Golfwrx 'No Turn Cast' thread and just published a few below that didn't work for several golfers. So, it's not some new and universal way to create better swing mechanics for all golfers who use this instruction.

To be fair, there are many posts where golfers said they have improved so it's up to the individual if they wish to pursue this technique.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Been hitting slight chunks over draws, pull draws and pulls in the beginning. Saw Monte's post that this may happen and to work through the process let the body react don't give up.

Driver is still in an unplayable state, either hit it with massive top spin and get it barely into play with a 100 yard dive or 45 degrees off the face and lost into the woods 50 yards to the right. Iron play is the best it's been in my life, but every range session I've been shanking 1/4 bucket worth of drives waiting on a breakthrough.

The feeling of casting from the top has increased my swing speed by ~5 mph.  I have noticed however that I have a slightly out-to-in clubpath (~-2°). Just wondering if there is a drill that can be done with the "cast" feeling to get more of an inside-out swing path? Try to hit some good ol' push hooks?

When I feel like I'm swinging the driver exactly like my irons, I'm hitting a huge pull hook or completely failing to get the ball off the ground.

Couldn't match the success with driver

Has anyone doing the NTC run into consistent slices/fades? Using Trackman I repeatedly see this, where the club face is open at impact and the club path is left.

How many have lost speed while working on the NTC? I lost about 5mph on my 7i and closer to 10mph on my driver.

When I first started with NTC I got some pretty bad wrist tendonitis

----------------------------------------------------

In my opinion the No Turn Cast drill seems reminiscent of the very old Leslie King instruction but without the active casting action (which he thought was sub-optimal). 

See some extracts of Leslie King instruction below:

 

 

 

 

 

It is quite possible to “throw out” from the top and yet maintain a good line into the ball. However, since power has been released early, it is almost certain that the point of release will vary with each swing. Hence, shots with the same club will vary in length as the point of “release” varies. A caddie will find it difficult to club you correctly. In short, throwing-out makes for weak shots of variable length. It also causes hitting the ground before the ball is struck. 

Now, maintaining the shoulders in the fully turned position, we simply commence the downward swing of the left hand and arm. That is how the downswing starts, and nothing could be simpler!

I stress again, the shoulders must remain in the fully turned position at the beginning of the downswing! The same left foot action that has “charged” the hands with power is enabling us to control the shoulders.
By keeping the shoulders fully turned the left hand and arm can swing freely from the left shoulder, taking the club-head down into the ball on a club line that will result in a swing into and along the line of flight through impact.

 

Hold your shoulders in the fully turned position as the left hand and arm begins to swing down – this ensures good club line through the ball

 

[Wildthing]

46 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

 

where do you think tiger’s right palm is going to go?

 

 

I would suspect it still continues to supinate to about approximately the yellow club shaft position (as per image below) before it starts to pronate a bit. 

The right forearm will still be in a state of supination by impact.

 

Here is the 3D graph data of tour pros trail wrist rotation. It's difficult to see, but MD (MID-Downswing) position is P6 as per TW's image above. The red arrow in the image below is moving over the MD position as it crosses the zero axis but the trail wrist is still supinating to approximately  a few feet before impact (maybe P6.7).

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

23 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

I've looked at some recent posts from the Golfwrx 'No Turn Cast' thread and just published a few below that didn't work for several golfers. So, it's not some new and universal way to create better swing mechanics for all golfers who use this instruction.

To be fair, there are many posts where golfers said they have improved so it's up to the individual if they wish to pursue this technique.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Been hitting slight chunks over draws, pull draws and pulls in the beginning. Saw Monte's post that this may happen and to work through the process let the body react don't give up.

Driver is still in an unplayable state, either hit it with massive top spin and get it barely into play with a 100 yard dive or 45 degrees off the face and lost into the woods 50 yards to the right. Iron play is the best it's been in my life, but every range session I've been shanking 1/4 bucket worth of drives waiting on a breakthrough.

The feeling of casting from the top has increased my swing speed by ~5 mph.  I have noticed however that I have a slightly out-to-in clubpath (~-2°). Just wondering if there is a drill that can be done with the "cast" feeling to get more of an inside-out swing path? Try to hit some good ol' push hooks?

When I feel like I'm swinging the driver exactly like my irons, I'm hitting a huge pull hook or completely failing to get the ball off the ground.

Couldn't match the success with driver

Has anyone doing the NTC run into consistent slices/fades? Using Trackman I repeatedly see this, where the club face is open at impact and the club path is left.

How many have lost speed while working on the NTC? I lost about 5mph on my 7i and closer to 10mph on my driver.

When I first started with NTC I got some pretty bad wrist tendonitis

----------------------------------------------------

In my opinion the No Turn Cast drill seems reminiscent of the very old Leslie King instruction but without the active casting action (which he thought was sub-optimal). 

See some extracts of Leslie King instruction below:

 

 

 

 

 

It is quite possible to “throw out” from the top and yet maintain a good line into the ball. However, since power has been released early, it is almost certain that the point of release will vary with each swing. Hence, shots with the same club will vary in length as the point of “release” varies. A caddie will find it difficult to club you correctly. In short, throwing-out makes for weak shots of variable length. It also causes hitting the ground before the ball is struck. 

Now, maintaining the shoulders in the fully turned position, we simply commence the downward swing of the left hand and arm. That is how the downswing starts, and nothing could be simpler!

I stress again, the shoulders must remain in the fully turned position at the beginning of the downswing! The same left foot action that has “charged” the hands with power is enabling us to control the shoulders.
By keeping the shoulders fully turned the left hand and arm can swing freely from the left shoulder, taking the club-head down into the ball on a club line that will result in a swing into and along the line of flight through impact.

 

Hold your shoulders in the fully turned position as the left hand and arm begins to swing down – this ensures good club line through the ball

 

Picking quotes from some of the guys who are just starting with the ntc series or those who are barely into the change in their swing doesn’t support your case. Guys are making movement pattern changes and that doesn’t happen overnight or even a few months.

But once again I’ll post one of the best in the worlds swing and you can see he does exactly what the ntc series teaches.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CcIrF8XjHfD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

Wait but there’s another in Koepka (btw monte also points out his swing flaw, so all the other stuff about learning what the pros do, you have to pick a pro because like I said the all have differences in what they do based on their swing, but what they all do is add some amount of flexion in the lead wrist or if they choose the trial wrist then it’s extension, both work together)

https://www.instagram.com/tv/Cb-aUgXlrMy/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

But wait there’s even another long ball hitting in Bryson doing the same move

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEPXFpvFFzD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

 

I would suspect it still continues to supinate to about approximately the yellow club shaft position (as per image below) before it starts to pronate a bit. 

The right forearm will still be in a state of supination by impact.

 

Here is the 3D graph data of tour pros trail wrist rotation. It's difficult to see, but MD (MID-Downswing) position is P6 as per TW's image above. The red arrow in the image below is moving over the MD position as it crosses the zero axis but the trail wrist is still supinating to approximately  a few feet before impact (maybe P6.7).

 

 

 

The right palm is going to go point at the ground. If it doesn’t he isn’t going to get into this position.