Optimising Clubhead Speed - Is this the real way?

[RickyBobby_PR]

24 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

Here is Dr Jeff Mann's recent analysis of the No Turn Cast concept.

--------------------------------

In this post, I am going to analyse Monte Scheinblum's (MS's) "no-turn cast" swing technique and I will explain why I think that it represents sub-optimal golf instruction.

I am unwilling to waste $30 to purchase MS's 16-part video series on the "no-turn cast" swing technique, but I believe that I can still clearly understand MS's "no-turn cast" opinions based on watching a number of videos and after reading this GolfWRX thread - forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1756226-montes-new-no-turn-cast/

 

The term "no-turn" refers to his opinions on how to perform the backswing action, and I will not discuss the "no-turn" topic in this post because it is not irrational, and I can generally agree with his basic intention/instruction. I am only going to discuss what MS states should happen in the early downswing between P4 => P6

 

MS states that one needs to position the clubhead and clubface in a proper position during the transition so that the body can react appropriately. It would seem that a major focus of MS's "proper positioning" opinions is based on the idea that one should keep the club's COM behind the hands during the early-mid downswing.

 

Here is an introductory video by MS on this topic.

 

Here is a capture image from the video.

Note the drawn clock where the 12 o'clock position is oriented towards the target.

 

Note that MS's club is oriented roughly towards 8 o'clock when he is reaching the P6 position, and that it is ~45 degrees angled back and not parallel to the ball-target at P6. In other words, it shows how much MS wants the club's COM to be kept behind the hands during the P4 => P6 time period. 

 

The following Instagram-based video best shows how MS performs the early-mid downswing action using his "no-turn cast" methodology.

 

www.instagram.com/reel/CeGss5DjwO3/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

I will now analyse this video.

 

 

In the first part of the video, he presents a close-up view of his wrist/hand action at the start of the downswing.

 

Note that is performing the reverse motorcycle manoeuvre with a degree of twistaway - where he palmar flexes his lead hand while it is radially deviated and that causes the club handle to twist clockwise around its longitudinal axis. He is simultaneously moving his lead wrist very slightly in an ulnar direction during his palmar flexion manoeuvre so that it becomes slightly less radially deviated. Also, note how his trail wrist becomes more extended as the clubshaft becomes slightly more shallowed-out secondary to his lead wrist actions.  

 

Here are capture images from a DTL perspective

 

Image 1 is at the P4 position, image 2 is at the P4.5 position, image 3 is at the P5 position, and image 4 is at the P6 position (when the clubshaft is parallel to the ground).

 

Note how MS is radically shallowing the clubshaft between P4 => P6 in an exaggerated off-plane manner where an imaginary extension line drawn-out from the butt end of the club at P5 will point well outside the ball-target line. Note that it requires a lot of lead forearm pronation and a lot of trail forearm supination to get to that off-plane P5 position where the clubshaft is being excessively shallowed-out.

 

Note that he is not assertively adducting his trail upper arm between P4 => P5 and that his trail elbow is not below his lead elbow at P5. That is going to result in a trail elbow straightening action between P5 => P6 that will cause a significant loss of clubhead lag by P6.

 

Note how his clubshaft is not parallel to the ball-target line at his P6 position and it is angled much too far inside.

 

Note how the lead wrist bowing/twistaway manoeuvre causes his clubface to become slightly closed relative to his clubhead path by P5.

 

Note how much he has ulnar-deviated (uncocked) his lead wrist between P4 => P6.

 

Capture image from a face-on perspective.

 

 

 

Image 1 is P4 and image 2 is at P6.

 

I don't object to his P4 position where he has a ~50-degree pelvic rotation and a ~90-degree upper torso rotation, where he has an intact LFFW that is seemingly on-plane, and where his RFFW is correctly positioned relative to his intact LFFW.

 

However, look at his P6 position where there are so many sub-optimal biomechanical features. Note how high his trail elbow is positioned relative to his trail hip area due to a very sluggish trail upper arm adduction manoeuvre and a very sluggish pitch motion of his trail elbow. Those sub-optimal biomechanical actions, which when combined with an excessive amount of ulnar-deviation motion of his lead wrist and an excessive trail elbow straightening action, causes him to lose a lot of his clubhead lag angle by P6.

 

Note that the back of his trail hand is facing skywards at P6 due to an excessive clubshaft shallowing action (involving an exaggerated amount of lead forearm pronation) that caused his clubshaft to move off-plane between P4 => P6.

 

Note how his clubshaft is angled too much inside at his P6 position, and it is not parallel to the ball-target line.

 

I do not object to the bowed lead wrist technique (as an alternative to the intact LFFW swing technique) and I only object to MS's excessive shallowing action that produces an off-plane motion of the clubshaft between P4 => P6 and that causes the clubshaft to be angled much too much inside at the P6 position.

 

If one wants to use the bowed lead wrist technique, then I think that one should use Dustin Johnson as a role model.

 

Consider DJs P4 => P6 golf swing action as viewed from a DTL perspective

 

 

Image 1 is at P4, image 2 is at P5, and image 3 is at P5.5.

 

The red splined path represents DJ's hand arc path. Note that DJ shallows his clubshaft between P4 => P5.5 and that keeps his club's COM behind his hands during his early-mid downswing. However, DJ does not shallow his clubshaft excessively and he keeps his clubshaft continuously on-plane (where an imaginary line drawn-out from the butt end of the club continuously points at the ball-target line) between P4 => P5.5.

 

Note how assertively DJ adducts his trail upper arm between P4 => P5 and that causes his trail elbow to be positioned well below his lead elbow at P5. Note how DJ's trail elbow is positioned in an optimum pitch elbow position in front of his trail hip at P5.5 and that he has retained the ~90 degree trail elbow bend angle at P5.5, which allows him to retain his clubhead lag angle to a much better degree than seen in the MS capture images.

 

Note that the back of his lead hand is more vertical at P5.5 (compared to MS's lead hand at a similar position) because he did not shallow his clubshaft excessively.

 

Here is another DTL capture image of DJ which includes his P6 position.

 

Image 3 is at his P6 position. Note that the clubshaft is parallel to the ball-target line, and it is not angled too much inside.

 

Consider DJs' P4 => P5.5 early-mid downswing action as viewed from a face-on perspective

Image 1 is at P4, image 2 is at P5, and image 3 is at P5.5.

 

The red splined path represents his hand arc path.

 

Note how assertively DJ adducts his trail upper arm between P4 => P5 and that his trail elbow is positioned well below his lead elbow at P5. Note how he continues to assertively adduct his trail elbow between P5 => P5.5, while performing a pitch elbow motion of his trail elbow, and that gets his trail elbow well positioned in front of his trail hip area by P5.5.

 

Note that he is not excessively shallowing his clubshaft between P4 => P5.5 due to excessive lead forearm pronation (as seen in the MS capture images) and that the back of his lead hand is more vertical at P5.5.

 

In conclusion, I much prefer DJ's clubshaft shallowing action where he keeps the clubshaft continuously on-plane between P4 => P6 and where he ends up at P6 with his clubshaft parallel to the ball-target line and where he has not lost a lot of his clubhead lag angle due to excessive trail elbow straightening between P5 => P6 (as seen in the MS capture images).

 

Jeff.

What Monte is doing is exaggerated because that’s one of the best ways to get a movement pattern to change in a person. In his efficient swing video series he has a drill to get to lead arm parallel that has the golfer point the club on a parallel line to the ground. I’m that video he says you will never be in this spot, it’s an exaggeration to get the feeling for how to rotate the arm and be in the right position.

Most good drills are exaggeration because you can’t feel the change without them. But in the swing you wouldn’t be in those positions.

You like a lot of still photos to show certain positions but you never dive into why they are in those positions as it relates to everything else they are doing in their swing or their intent with their swing.

One shouldn’t use DJ as an example For bowed wrists unless they can swing like DJ. Because of his wrist positions his body is going to have to have different tilts than someone else who is less bowed. If they can’t get their hips and body rotating like DJ it’s going to be a disaster.

just like GG says about Matt Wolff’s swing. If one can’t dig and create the forces that Matt does one shouldn’t swing like Matt. Johnny Ruiz who is another GG student saw Matt’s swing and wanted to try it. GG told him go for it. Their two swings look nothing alike because they have the same intent.

This is what understanding the swing is. 
 

With all that said I should have stuck with my previous statement if I’m out, so now I’m out.

[MacTourney]

6 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

The difference between how we think about the golf swing is you prefer to just look at positions, movement patterns, pressure shifts but I prefer to know the reasons how and why we do them.

For example, if a student asked the instructor why do I need a full body turn what would be your answer? What is the purpose of the full body turn?

What is the optimal way to move the pelvis?

What is the optimal way to create ground reaction forces to generate angular momentum in the golfer's body /swing?

How does the golfer move his ribcage in the downswing?

How does the golfer move his arms in the downswing?

How does the golfer create space for his arms to swing in front of his lower and upper body?

What is the role of the right arm in the golf swing?

What is the role of the left arm in the golf swing?

How does a golfer keep his swing 'On Plane'

How does a golfer square the clubface?

How does a golfer create clubhead speed?

How does the spine move in the golf swing?

What are the optimal hand release actions?

What are the different arm release actions?

All of the above (and much more) is in that website link I posted.

 

But don't you think that level of analysis is more a waste of time than not within the grand scheme of moving a club in space?     If applying that level of analysis  to how we coordinate our hands and arms with leveraged force and momentum when using a knife and fork to eat supper we may have to redefine malnutrition. 

Maybe we should eat by using just a spoon, at least it would then be a one appendage operation. 

 

 

[flyingwedges]

13 hours ago, Wildthing said:

So you use your longer game swing mechanics when you perform these shots?

• Pitches
• Pitch and Run
• Chips
• Chip In
• Bump and Run / Chip and Run
• Flop Lob
• Bunker Shots
• Blast Explosion
• Sandie Sandy
• Up and Down
• Putts
• Lags
• Off Green Putts

 

Same body / shoulders / hips / hands / tendons / muscles / same movement pattern. 

[Wildthing]

1 hour ago, MacTourney said:

But don't you think that level of analysis is more a waste of time than not within the grand scheme of moving a club in space?     If applying that level of analysis  to how we coordinate our hands and arms with leveraged force and momentum when using a knife and fork to eat supper we may have to redefine malnutrition. 

Maybe we should eat by using just a spoon, at least it would then be a one appendage operation. 

 

 

It might be a waste of time if you are not interested in biomechanics.

But remember that even Monte and Tyler Ferrell are using biomechanics data to develop their cause-and-effect opinions in what happens in the golf swing.  Where do you think this 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' and 'No Turn Cast' concepts originated from?

Here is the reasoning behind the 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' instruction (look at the graphs in the video).  With these graphs both Monte and Tyler can provide some evidence for promoting their micro 'moves'.  The reason for using these concepts is a common opinion that it allows the golfer to close the clubface early relative to clubhead path and then enable the golfer to just pivot through impact with a squarer clubface relative to path (see image below)

 

 

 

If you have the time to review this critical analysis of the 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' you may have a different point of view whether this is correct instruction or not.

TylerFerrellReview (perfectgolfswingreview.net)

The main 'error ' is explained below:

I believe that many golf instructors do not understand that maintaining a bowed lead wrist "motorcycle move" maneuver into the later downswing will cause backwards angulation of the clubshaft relative to the bowed lead wrist/hand, so that the golfer will approach impact with a lot of forward shaft lean (where the lead hand is well ahead of the clubhead).

 maintaining a bowed lead wrist into the later downswing, when the lead wrist becomes increasingly ulnar deviated, causes clubshaft angulation without clubface closing

Edited August 11, 2022 by Wildthing

[Goober]

this photo here is spot on what I’m being taught and working on. Bingo 

[Wildthing]

7 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I don’t care about how much pressure, torque, rotational forces get applied in a swing.

I care about what the movement patterns are and how to make them in the swing as well as how to fix faults.

What I explained above is the sequence of the swing. It’s what instructors teach and is what’s beneficial when looking at video to diagnose what’s going wrong on the swing.

 

Heres two videos of Sergio with driver and a partial wedge. Due to the length of the wedge shot he doesn’t have to shallow the club as much as a full swing but you can see the body moves in similar patterns 

 

https://youtu.be/B0ojOEwiMHE

 

https://youtu.be/xxbCQaOtUL0

 

to the topic of how to optimize club head speed. It’s very simple. Shift off the ball, have a good sequence in the swing, recenter and get pressure to lead side with a good sequence in transition and rotate.

Whatever one wants to do in the swing in the transition they need to have that intent before the swing gets to lead arm parallel. The swing is 1/2 over at this point and from the top of the swing it’s ~.25 seconds to impact.

 

"I don’t care about how much pressure, torque, rotational forces get applied in a swing."

That's your decision but others have different opinions and some base their drills/exercises on this data to help improve performance (ie. Swing Catalyst).

"I care about what the movement patterns are and how to make them in the swing as well as how to fix faults."

You can fix movement patterns using data from 'Swing Catalyst'  (ie. understanding the horizontal/vertical grfs and torques).

"What I explained above is the sequence of the swing. It’s what instructors teach and is what’s beneficial when looking at video to diagnose what’s going wrong on the swing."

Trying to ingrain some theoretical optimal sequence in a golfer's swing doesn't guarantee anything while 2D video is not as good as 3D analysis.  There are other valid swing techniques that don't follow your description such as 'Stack And Tilt' which some tour pros still use. In fact, there are a plethora of instructors with their own theories about swing mechanics which don't necessarily match your description.

 

Your 2 Sergio Garcia videos just prove to me that he is using different swing mechanics and you've just proved that fact by acknowledging he is shallowing the driver more than the wedge.  Do you not regard that as a change in swing pattern or must we just ignore that aspect and concentrate on particular body segment movements that you think do not change?

"to the topic of how to optimize club head speed. It’s very simple. Shift off the ball, have a good sequence in the swing, recenter and get pressure to lead side with a good sequence in transition and rotate."

Check the above video -it's not that simple.

"Whatever one wants to do in the swing in the transition they need to have that intent before the swing gets to lead arm parallel. The swing is 1/2 over at this point and from the top of the swing it’s ~.25 seconds to impact."

I'm inclined to agree with the above but only because there have been experiments to prove it (Cochran & Stobbs- 'Search For The Perfect Swing'- page 101 - An experiment in reaction time).

[Wildthing]

From a purely physics perspective this is what I don't understand about Monte's early cast concept.

Look at the images below for a club which has been:

1. Cast early

2. No early cast

Imagine a theoretical force F (red arrow) of same magnitude being applied at the same point in the downswing via the lead arm/hand.

You can easily see that in the 'No early cast' scenario the moment arm 'b' is greater than 'a' which means a larger 'Torque' and angular acceleration being applied to the club's COM (yellow dot). An early cast means that the golfer will create less clubhead speed, therefore I do not understand the logic of using an early cast technique.

[Wildthing]

For forum readers who need a better explanation in laymans terms of how to optimise speed, please look at video below from 37:15 -47:06 . 

He also talks about internal vs external focus when performing a golf swing.

 

[Goober]

I really like all the videos in this thread from multiple instructors. Never realized how hard it would be to be an internet golf instructor. You really have to stand out from the crowd or literally get run over. That is a hard line of work 

[BMart519]

19 hours ago, Wildthing said:

From a purely physics perspective this is what I don't understand about Monte's early cast concept.

Look at the images below for a club which has been:

1. Cast early

2. No early cast

Imagine a theoretical force F (red arrow) of same magnitude being applied at the same point in the downswing via the lead arm/hand.

You can easily see that in the 'No early cast' scenario the moment arm 'b' is greater than 'a' which means a larger 'Torque' and angular acceleration being applied to the club's COM (yellow dot). An early cast means that the golfer will create less clubhead speed, therefore I do not understand the logic of using an early cast technique.

For the sake of discussion, what if the club is already travelling 2x as fast in the cast early scenario compared to the same lead arm position in B. 

Another thing that Sasho discusses is hand speed. The fastest swings have the largest spread between max hand speed and speed at impact. If you are maintaining too much wrist hinge close to impact you likely have unrealized speed because the wrist hinge is able to apply more speed to the club than any other joint. 

[Wildthing]

40 minutes ago, BMart519 said:

For the sake of discussion, what if the club is already travelling 2x as fast in the cast early scenario compared to the same lead arm position in B. 

Another thing that Sasho discusses is hand speed. The fastest swings have the largest spread between max hand speed and speed at impact. If you are maintaining too much wrist hinge close to impact you likely have unrealized speed because the wrist hinge is able to apply more speed to the club than any other joint. 

Good question and I suspect the clubhead speed will peak too early and then decelerate by impact with a flip action through impact. To prevent the latter, one would need to move the hands much quicker along the hand path so that the club doesn't overtake the lead arm/hand before impact.

If you 'held' the lag angle too late in the downswing, the clubhead speed would likely peak after impact (if a ball wasn't in the way). Again, sub-optimal clubhead speed because you really want it to peak at impact, not well before or after.

The other thing to note is if the angle between lead arm and clubshaft is small, the moment of inertia of the arms/club system is less than if the club and lead arm were more aligned (ie. angle between lead arm and club larger). Therefore, for a given upper body torque, the arms/club system with the smaller MOI will receive a greater angular acceleration.

PS.  This means you are more likely to create greater clubhead speed in the early downswing (for a given upper body torque) if you didn't cast early with your wrists.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Interesting video by Dr Kwon who promotes body driven swing mechanics.

 

 

Look from 4:17 - 5:15

Note what he says will happen if you early cast (ie. like Monte's 'No Turn Cast').   

It will stall the body pivot.

If your timing of release is late, the clubhead speed and path is compromised.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

13 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

Interesting video by Dr Kwon who promotes body driven swing mechanics.

 

 

Look from 4:17 - 5:15

Note what he says will happen if you early cast (ie. like Monte's 'No Turn Cast').   

It will stall the body pivot.

If your timing of release is late, the clubhead speed and path is compromised.

Proves how little you have actually dived into what Monte teaches or the ntc concept. Or that you haven’t copy and pasted the videos I posted. If you did you would have learned that prior to cast a there is pressure added to the lead leg as well as adding lead side bend the same that dr kwon is talking about.

If you would have watched the videos from Monte I posted you would enjoy him talk about moving off the ball to start, how proper hip movement recenter the body and that prior to transition which is where the case comes in there is added pressure into the lead side (all of this is what leads to increased club head speed).

So instead of analyzing/critiquing one movement or one section of a the swing based on a drill, dive into the actual teaching and full swing of the coach ground disagree with. You might realize that they are teaching the same thing you post segments about. Not to mention that the thread you posted about the body doesn’t square the face shows exactly the samething you are arguing against. 

[Wildthing]

11 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Proves how little you have actually dived into what Monte teaches or the ntc concept. Or that you haven’t copy and pasted the videos I posted. If you did you would have learned that prior to cast a there is pressure added to the lead leg as well as adding lead side bend the same that dr kwon is talking about.

If you would have watched the videos from Monte I posted you would enjoy him talk about moving off the ball to start, how proper hip movement recenter the body and that prior to transition which is where the case comes in there is added pressure into the lead side (all of this is what leads to increased club head speed).

So instead of analyzing/critiquing one movement or one section of a the swing based on a drill, dive into the actual teaching and full swing of the coach ground disagree with. You might realize that they are teaching the same thing you post segments about. Not to mention that the thread you posted about the body doesn’t square the face shows exactly the samething you are arguing against. 

Sorry but I don't wish to register on instagram to open your links.  There may be similarities in the weight pressure and other movements you mentioned above but the early cast is very problematic from both a kinematics and kinetic perspective.   I have already shown why I think it is sub-optimal to do an early cast because it decreases the moment arm for the 'In Plane MOF' which means less angular acceleration of the club. The clubhead speed will also peak too early before impact unless you can find a way to prevent the clubshaft from overtaking your lead hand/arm before impact (flipping). If Monte thinks that an early cast actually subconsciously forces the golfer to do the latter, then that is just a gross assumption (just like the 'no turn' element).

I personally favour the biomechanics of optimal pelvic movement as per link below which is far more detailed a description than anything Monte or other teachers provide. You should take some time to read it before asking me to delve into less detailed instruction.

How to Optimally Rotate the Pelv (perfectgolfswingreview.net)

Also, an active early cast with wrist torque can actually influence the lower body pivot (ie. tend to stall it). Sit on a swivel chair (feet off the ground), with your lead arm/club  horizontal straight ahead of you. Now slowly radially deviate your left wrist while keeping the club horizontal (use your right arm to support your left arm if the club feels too heavy). Now cast the club by uncocking your wrist aggressively and notice what happens.  Your lower and upper body rotates the opposite way that the club shaft is rotating (ie.  a body stall). To prevent an early body pivot stall, you will need to use your legs more to interact with the ground.

The lead forearm supination is by far the main contributor to squaring the clubface and I can show you several graphs from 3D technology to prove it.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

10 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

Sorry but I don't wish to register on instagram to open your links. 

You don’t have to. The video will open on it own with no account. 

You can literally talk to Monte about this for free as well. All you need to do is go into the ntc thread on wrx and tag him in a post with a question or you could create a thread about whatever portion or subject you want and get him as well as other swing experts opinion.

12 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

I have already shown why I think it is sub-optimal to do an early cast because it decreases the moment arm for the 'In Plane MOF' which means less angular acceleration of the club. The clubhead speed will also peak too early before impact unless you can find a way to prevent the clubshaft from overtaking your lead hand/arm before impact (flipping). If Monte thinks that an early cast actually subconsciously forces the golfer to do the latter, then that is just a gross assumption (just like the 'no turn' element).

Actually you have only posted about it in the concept of early cast without all the moving parts of the swing similar to how I pointed out the flaw you tried to point out using Dr Keon’s video and how it’s exactly what Monte teaches as well as marring Chuck, amg and numerous other instructors.

Ive also told you that your own threads about he swing debunk what you post like the thread about body not squaring the clubface.

You looked at that video to prove a point about the body not squaring the club and missed what the video shows, which is the same move as cast a. 
 

Just like Dr kwon says in the video monte explains in his ntc series as well as other videos that turn the move isn’t a cast without turn the cast a move is the typically amateur move and what causes many of the “flipping” issues.

You are so focused on the kinematic sequence as you understand that you can’t see it in other swings.

And definitely now going to back to being out of this thread as you will see things how you want and imo despite what you have read don’t really understand the golf swing itself 

[Wildthing]

28 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You don’t have to. The video will open on it own with no account. 

You can literally talk to Monte about this for free as well. All you need to do is go into the ntc thread on wrx and tag him in a post with a question or you could create a thread about whatever portion or subject you want and get him as well as other swing experts opinion.

Actually you have only posted about it in the concept of early cast without all the moving parts of the swing similar to how I pointed out the flaw you tried to point out using Dr Keon’s video and how it’s exactly what Monte teaches as well as marring Chuck, amg and numerous other instructors.

Ive also told you that your own threads about he swing debunk what you post like the thread about body not squaring the clubface.

You looked at that video to prove a point about the body not squaring the club and missed what the video shows, which is the same move as cast a. 
 

Just like Dr kwon says in the video monte explains in his ntc series as well as other videos that turn the move isn’t a cast without turn the cast a move is the typically amateur move and what causes many of the “flipping” issues.

You are so focused on the kinematic sequence as you understand that you can’t see it in other swings.

And definitely now going to back to being out of this thread as you will see things how you want and imo despite what you have read don’t really understand the golf swing itself 

It is bizarre that Monte says it's the body pivot that squares the club as in this video below.

 

Yet he has seen the 3D stats of golf pros which shows that its left forearm supination which is the main contributor.

Even Tyler Ferrell demonstrates this fact below

 

PS.  Those instagram videos do not open up. They force you to register with them for those links to open up automatically.

Further:

"You can literally talk to Monte about this for free as well. All you need to do is go into the ntc thread on wrx and tag him in a post with a question or you could create a thread about whatever portion or subject you want and get him as well as other swing experts opinion"

Anyone who posts an opinion (with evidence) about an instructor's concept (who may also be a sponsor of wrx)  gets banned.

I questioned the 'Tyler Ferrell' motorcycle move but was then abused by their shills and banned without an explanation. 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

They banned me from Golfwrx because I quoted from Dr Jeff Mann's website the following:

"Tyler Ferrell has presented no evidence that bowing the lead wrist in the later downswing between P6 => P7 (in a golfer who uses a weak-neutral lead hand grip strength) will decrease the amount of lead forearm supination required in the later downswing in order to square the clubface by impact!"

Here is someone who squares his clubface with lead forearm supination.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Here's why golf instructors have possibly misinterpreted the impact of the bowing of the lead wrist in closing the clubface early in the downswing.

Am open to changing my opinion if they can prove otherwise.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Wildthing
Image was wrong so editing and replacing

[flyingwedges]

10 hours ago, Wildthing said:

It is bizarre that Monte says it's the body pivot that squares the club as in this video below.

 

Yet he has seen the 3D stats of golf pros which shows that its left forearm supination which is the main contributor.

Even Tyler Ferrell demonstrates this fact below

 

PS.  Those instagram videos do not open up. They force you to register with them for those links to open up automatically.

Further:

"You can literally talk to Monte about this for free as well. All you need to do is go into the ntc thread on wrx and tag him in a post with a question or you could create a thread about whatever portion or subject you want and get him as well as other swing experts opinion"

Anyone who posts an opinion (with evidence) about an instructor's concept (who may also be a sponsor of wrx)  gets banned.

I questioned the 'Tyler Ferrell' motorcycle move but was then abused by their shills and banned without an explanation. 

So much of this is how you feel particular parts of the body working, be they hips, shoulders, arms, etc. Some feel the proper articulation of the hip socket / head of femur, while others are more in tune with arm movement: still others are more in touch with torso.  I never believe anyone who tells me they fell this or that, and thus it's the magic bullet. Show me the video that supports that opinion.   I spent hours, in person, listening to Manuel de la Torre, in a one person lesson, with one of Manuel's successful disciples, and another teaching pro from S Africa who is pretty damn good but has different swing theories.  Manuel did not describe very well what he wanted the student to do nor what he himself was  doing, and I would never have paid him a penny.  His successful disciple, too, was horrible with instruction.  The Other teaching pro and I spent all of 15 minutes with the student, a very good scratch, with nearly 90 tournament wins and some USGA success also, tightened up his motion, got him to cover the ball, use his hips correctly, and he gained 15 yards immediately with a 7 iron, and then every other club in the bag.   The point is, instructors need to understand two things:  (1) how the student processes information, and (2) How to speak to the student in how they process information.    I don't process Monte's teaching style very well, and I do process Jim Waldron, who most would find too technical.  I think you guys are talking past each other.

[flyingwedges]

8 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Here's why golf instructors have possibly misinterpreted the impact of the bowing of the lead wrist in closing the clubface early in the downswing.

Am open to changing my opinion if they can prove otherwise.

 

 

Might you begin to understand the beauty of the right forearm and not focus so much on the left arm.?

[RickyBobby_PR]

32 minutes ago, flyingwedges said:

Might you begin to understand the beauty of the right forearm and not focus so much on the left arm.?

Imagine if he looked into what the greats like hogan, Snead, Jack, Norman and many others in those eras did that allowed them to be great ball strikers and some of the longest hitters. Or just looked into Bradley Hughes teaching which is based on what those guys did.

Jack said you can’t release early enough, but that also comes with a good turn. Basically the samething Monte and others reach about the trail arm and wrist along with the shifting of pressure into lead leg. All before technology allowed us to see what they did.

[Wildthing]

13 hours ago, flyingwedges said:

Might you begin to understand the beauty of the right forearm and not focus so much on the left arm.?

 I'm talking about the concept of bowing the lead wrist which many golf instructors (even some scientists) seem to believe closes the clubface relative to the path. This is the reasoning behind the 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' and even Monte's 'No Turn Cast' swing instruction.  If the bowing of the lead wrist is due to some movement of the trail wrist (ie. extension), the net result is the same, the bowing of the lead wrist and the assumption that the clubface closes relative to path. The theory being that early clubface closure relative to path will mean less need to rotate the lead forearm to square the clubface later in the downswing.

I have raised the question whether that assumption is correct or not by posting some images. Does closing the clubface when the club path is more in line with the shaft still cause the clubface to remain closed to the club path when the shaft becomes normal to the club path?

I have already posted graphs of tour pros showing the trail forearm rotation but if you have an opinion on its use in the golf swing, please feel free to share.

With regards Jim Waldron's arm swing illusion, I did look at this quite some time ago. Here is a link that provides a good overview.

The Arm Swing Illusion - Golf's Missing Link - Jim Waldron (holetheputt.com)

Did Jim Waldron ever define what he meant by being 'On Plane'?

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Wildthing

[flyingwedges]

On 8/13/2022 at 7:29 PM, Wildthing said:

 I'm talking about the concept of bowing the lead wrist which many golf instructors (even some scientists) seem to believe closes the clubface relative to the path. This is the reasoning behind the 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' and even Monte's 'No Turn Cast' swing instruction.  If the bowing of the lead wrist is due to some movement of the trail wrist (ie. extension), the net result is the same, the bowing of the lead wrist and the assumption that the clubface closes relative to path. The theory being that early clubface closure relative to path will mean less need to rotate the lead forearm to square the clubface later in the downswing.

I have raised the question whether that assumption is correct or not by posting some images. Does closing the clubface when the club path is more in line with the shaft still cause the clubface to remain closed to the club path when the shaft becomes normal to the club path?

I have already posted graphs of tour pros showing the trail forearm rotation but if you have an opinion on its use in the golf swing, please feel free to share.

With regards Jim Waldron's arm swing illusion, I did look at this quite some time ago. Here is a link that provides a good overview.

The Arm Swing Illusion - Golf's Missing Link - Jim Waldron (holetheputt.com)

Did Jim Waldron ever define what he meant by being 'On Plane'?

 

Are you a swinger(left side) or a hitter (right side)?

[Wildthing]

On 8/15/2022 at 2:44 AM, flyingwedges said:

Are you a swinger(left side) or a hitter (right side)?

I swing right-handed but am a left hander. How do you define a hitter?

Edited August 16, 2022 by Wildthing

[flyingwedges]

3 hours ago, Wildthing said:

I swing right-handed but am a left hander. How do you define a hitter?

Hitter is a right side motion for  a right handed player. It's a different motion than a left side motion for a right handed player, which is a swinging motion.

 

Darren Clarke is a hitter for example. 

[Wildthing]

35 minutes ago, flyingwedges said:

Hitter is a right side motion for  a right handed player. It's a different motion than a left side motion for a right handed player, which is a swinging motion.

 

Darren Clarke is a hitter for example. 

Here is an analysis of DC's swing by Mark Crossfield.  I cannot easily see how one can discern whether he is a hitter or a swinger. 

 

[flyingwedges]

7 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Here is an analysis of DC's swing by Mark Crossfield.  I cannot easily see how one can discern whether he is a hitter or a swinger. 

 

It is extermely obvious that he is a hitter.  Hogan was a hitter, Snead was a hitter

[flyingwedges]

7 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Here is an analysis of DC's swing by Mark Crossfield.  I cannot easily see how one can discern whether he is a hitter or a swinger. 

 

 

[flyingwedges]

7 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Here is an analysis of DC's swing by Mark Crossfield.  I cannot easily see how one can discern whether he is a hitter or a swinger. 

 

Listen to what he says about how the swing is esssentially the same for every club.  This motion is a hittting motion  

 

[Wildthing]

16 hours ago, flyingwedges said:

Listen to what he says about how the swing is esssentially the same for every club.  This motion is a hittting motion  

 

 

You said

"It is extremely obvious that he is a hitter.  Hogan was a hitter, Snead was a hitter"

I don't think it's very obvious at all because the definition is very vague. What do you mean by a right-side motion being different to a left-side motion? Are you saying that DC, Hogan and Snead predominantly used their trail arm to swing the club rather than a lead side body pivot to help propel their lead arm in the downswing?

 

Just found a youtube video that might provide an explanation? Is this how you would define a hitter vs swinger?

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Wildthing