Optimising Clubhead Speed - Is this the real way?

[flyingwedges]

6 hours ago, Wildthing said:

 

You said

"It is extremely obvious that he is a hitter.  Hogan was a hitter, Snead was a hitter"

I don't think it's very obvious at all because the definition is very vague. What do you mean by a right-side motion being different to a left-side motion? Are you saying that DC, Hogan and Snead predominantly used their trail arm to swing the club rather than a lead side body pivot to help propel their lead arm in the downswing?

 

Just found a youtube video that might provide an explanation? Is this how you would define a hitter vs swinger?

 

 

 

[flyingwedges]

6 hours ago, Wildthing said:

 

You said

"It is extremely obvious that he is a hitter.  Hogan was a hitter, Snead was a hitter"

I don't think it's very obvious at all because the definition is very vague. What do you mean by a right-side motion being different to a left-side motion? Are you saying that DC, Hogan and Snead predominantly used their trail arm to swing the club rather than a lead side body pivot to help propel their lead arm in the downswing?

 

Just found a youtube video that might provide an explanation? Is this how you would define a hitter vs swinger?

 

 

 

[flyingwedges]

6 hours ago, Wildthing said:

 

You said

"It is extremely obvious that he is a hitter.  Hogan was a hitter, Snead was a hitter"

I don't think it's very obvious at all because the definition is very vague. What do you mean by a right-side motion being different to a left-side motion? Are you saying that DC, Hogan and Snead predominantly used their trail arm to swing the club rather than a lead side body pivot to help propel their lead arm in the downswing?

 

Just found a youtube video that might provide an explanation? Is this how you would define a hitter vs swinger?

 

 

 

[flyingwedges]

6 hours ago, Wildthing said:

 

You said

"It is extremely obvious that he is a hitter.  Hogan was a hitter, Snead was a hitter"

I don't think it's very obvious at all because the definition is very vague. What do you mean by a right-side motion being different to a left-side motion? Are you saying that DC, Hogan and Snead predominantly used their trail arm to swing the club rather than a lead side body pivot to help propel their lead arm in the downswing?

 

Just found a youtube video that might provide an explanation? Is this how you would define a hitter vs swinger?

 

 

This video provides an answer to your original question about the action of the left wrist: 

 

[flyingwedges]

6 hours ago, Wildthing said:

 

You said

"It is extremely obvious that he is a hitter.  Hogan was a hitter, Snead was a hitter"

I don't think it's very obvious at all because the definition is very vague. What do you mean by a right-side motion being different to a left-side motion? Are you saying that DC, Hogan and Snead predominantly used their trail arm to swing the club rather than a lead side body pivot to help propel their lead arm in the downswing?

 

Just found a youtube video that might provide an explanation? Is this how you would define a hitter vs swinger?

 

 

Watch impact position: 

 

[Wildthing]

23 minutes ago, flyingwedges said:

Watch impact position: 

 

Many thanks for these videos as they are very interesting indeed.

I have read about some of these actions on Dr Jeff Mann's website 

Power mechanics of swinging (perfectgolfswingreview.net)

Edited August 18, 2022 by Wildthing

[flyingwedges]

On 8/17/2022 at 7:00 PM, Wildthing said:

Many thanks for these videos as they are very interesting indeed.

I have read about some of these actions on Dr Jeff Mann's website 

Power mechanics of swinging (perfectgolfswingreview.net)

Good link.  IMHO, so many non TGM instructors like to go out of their way to say they aren't reaching TGM, when in reality, nearly every instructor uses TGM terminology, methodology, and left vs right comparison, without having any basic knowledge of TGM.   As with any teaching method, how the instructor coveys the info is key to the student's success. Mann gets a bit deep in the weeds, but he is understandable for those of us who think in that way.

Edited September 10, 2022 by flyingwedges

[vandyland]

I just bought the No Turn Cast video series. Based on the last few pages here I imagine I will have some thoughts about a month from now when I have given it a fair shake. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I just bought the No Turn Cast video series. Based on the last few pages here I imagine I will have some thoughts about a month from now when I have given it a fair shake. 

Based on the video you posted the day the ntc series will be good for you.

especially the no turn portion 

[Glenmore5]

Every one has a swing unique to their body strength etc. We should not get hyped up on the elite athletes and their amazing abilities...rather get the basics right and then use our coaches to fine tune our best abilities.

 

How often have we seen..how the hell can he or she swing like that only to see the ball fly away and then think...everyone has a different way to play the game.....lets just enjoy.

[MacTourney]

38 minutes ago, glenmore5 said:

Every one has a swing unique to their body strength etc. We should not get hyped up on the elite athletes and their amazing abilities...rather get the basics right and then use our coaches to fine tune our best abilities.

 

How often have we seen..how the hell can he or she swing like that only to see the ball fly away and then think...everyone has a different way to play the game.....lets just enjoy.

Sounds about right. 

Using Jim Furyk and Miller Barber as bookends to Ernie Els tells us there is no one way, there is your way, and if that way acquires real estate in rather precisely directed increments you can play.  

[Adolfo00]

Everyone you show SAYS he swings the weight back to the right.  Every one you showed begins by pressing his weight into his forward leg, then simply and slightly moves his head back to the right.  From there gravity gets him back and through with speed.  The stack and tilt guys were not wrong.  They just overdid it.  It’s very subtle. If you can find some old footage of Johnny Revolta or Jock Hutchison, you will seethe elite strikers of the wood and steel era did the same thing.

[vandyland]

15 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Based on the video you posted the day the ntc series will be good for you.

especially the no turn portion 

I went through all the videos last night and it is going to be....challenging. Literally it is going to change almost every position in my swing. I am committed to doing a month of work on it, understanding that I may get to the end of the month and still not be able to hit the ball consistently. It is so different from my current swing it is almost unbelievable but it makes a ton of sense. All the compensations I currently make in my swing are to make up for the fact that instead of doing Cast A I do almost the opposite. 

It's funny, I was watching Mac Boucher (on TXG) swing and I tried to mimic his swing from how he explained it in their compression video (see link below). I was cutting waaaaay across the ball and couldn't for the life of me get even close to neutral path. That should have been a lightbulb moment for me. I'm initially very glad I bought Monte's video because if it was just a free youtube video I might throw the methodology away because it is too hard to change my current motor patterns. Instead, since I bought it (for only about the cost of a high end golf glove but still), I feel like I have to see it through. The price is very fair for what he is offering and if it helps me to commit to working on this consistently then so be it. 

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by vandyland

[RickyBobby_PR]

14 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I went through all the videos last night and it is going to be....challenging. Literally it is going to change almost every position in my swing. I am committed to doing a month of work on it, understanding that I may get to the end of the month and still not be able to hit the ball consistently. It is so different from my current swing it is almost unbelievable but it makes a ton of sense. All the compensations I currently make in my swing are to make up for the fact that instead of doing Cast A I do almost the opposite. 

Changing movement patterns is hard. I’m in the process myself. I have some of the same tendencies in my swing as you do. 
 

Your compensations start from how you take the club away and turn. Not a lot of hip depth or turn. My biggest issue too.

Because of where you are at the swing you have to shallow with almost dumping the right side.

Like I mention in the quote of your video you have done a good job of making your swing work well to get to a 5 hdcp.

Good luck on this journey but I would give yourself more than a month.

Check out the no turn cast thread on wrx. You will see how long it’s taking some people to even make some small improvements 

[vandyland]

Just now, RickyBobby_PR said:

Check out the no turn cast thread on wrx. You will see how long it’s taking some people to even make some small improvements 

That thread is what gave me confidence to go on this journey. It's also up to 70 pages which is almost impossible to read all of that. But I find Monte's teaching style to be interesting and compelling. Also, I took lessons for close to a year and an idea like this never came up in regards to shallowing the club. The feel makes sense to me but it is going to take a while to get myself truly throwing out to 8 o'clock. Last night on camera I was probably throwing to 6:30 which still felt VERY alien to me, haha. 

2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Because of where you are at the swing you have to shallow with almost dumping the right side.

Oh yeah, that was/is me. I basically have to tilt like crazy coming into the ball and scoop at the bottom. On a good day it is fine, on a bad day it can go ANYWHERE. So while I am a 4-5 HDCP that's because every other round I can shoot 73-75 and my 85-86s rarely end up counting. In truth, I am a terrible partner to have in a HDCP-based match. Best of luck to both of us @RickyBobby_PR! I've always appreciated your input on various threads. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 minutes ago, vandyland said:

That thread is what gave me confidence to go on this journey. It's also up to 70 pages which is almost impossible to read all of that. But I find Monte's teaching style to be interesting and compelling. Also, I took lessons for close to a year and an idea like this never came up in regards to shallowing the club. The feel makes sense to me but it is going to take a while to get myself truly throwing out to 8 o'clock. Last night on camera I was probably throwing to 6:30 which still felt VERY alien to me, haha. 

Oh yeah, that was/is me. I basically have to tilt like crazy coming into the ball and scoop at the bottom. On a good day it is fine, on a bad day it can go ANYWHERE. So while I am a 4-5 HDCP that's because every other round I can shoot 73-75 and my 85-86s rarely end up counting. In truth, I am a terrible partner to have in a HDCP-based match. Best of luck to both of us @RickyBobby_PR! I've always appreciated your input on various threads. 

I know the feeling of the ups and downs of rounds. 
 

Thanks and feel free to drop any questions along the way. I have that video series and have watched it several times. Just haven’t had the time to practice so I back burnered it. I’m going thru Milo lines online course right now. Some similarities in his teaching with Monte and gg

[ChuckZ]

A hitter is one who can make good solid contact with the ball consistently and own their swing.  Good example, Moe Norman and Ben Hogan. 

In January 2005, Tiger Woods, told Golf Digest's Jaime Diaz that only tow golfers in history have owned their swings.  Moe Norman and Ben Hogan and he hoped to be the third.    

[DukeStKing]

On 5/20/2022 at 9:04 AM, ejgaudette said:

I enjoyed these even if I can't full understand them. I found this video from Crossfield that I think can help show how information like what @Wildthing is sharing gets trickled down from this advanced theory to coaches on the cutting edge, to coaches more on the front lines. They talk about creating depth and width in the swing and Mark even demos the want to move the hands up and away while the front side moves closer to the target as an exaggerated move. This idea I think is a bit more of the practical application of some of what has been shared above. Really interesting to see how swing coaching evolves. From cupped wrists are the best position at the top to now everyone wants a flat or bowed wrist.

 

Isn’t all this techno mumbo-jumbo just “get to your left side?” 
 

[ejgaudette]

4 minutes ago, DukeStKing said:

Isn’t all this techno mumbo-jumbo just “get to your left side?” 
 

That might be a phrase that used after understanding this for a given student, another might be given a cue about how to move their hands. I  am sure unless a student really asked for this type of data and detail and the coach thought it would help they would not share it and stick to more movement patterns like you are talking about.

In a recent Hack It Out podcast about online teaching he was mentioning that with the advent of all this tech it has allowed him to teach more basically with even lees technical language. The technology gives the numbers so he can simplify it. As long as he understands he optimal way to swing then he can give cues to move the delivery and the numbers to that direction. Most don't care to understand all this and just want the cues, but to some its interesting.

[MacTourney]

2 hours ago, DukeStKing said:

Isn’t all this techno mumbo-jumbo just “get to your left side?” 
 

It's a big part of it, yes.    I like to believe one can learn more during one hour in a vacant field with their own thoughts along with a couple balls and a stick rather than diving into the abyss of math and myth.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

15 minutes ago, MacTourney said:

It's a big part of it, yes.    I like to believe one can learn more during one hour in a vacant field with their own thoughts along with a couple balls and a stick rather than diving into the abyss of math and myth.  

Have you been to a driving range lately. You can give people multiple hours across a week and they aren’t going to improve their swing and or results. 
 

I was watching guys on Sunday I see regularly at the range. Their swing a land ball flight look the same as it has over the last two years and they both watch several of the popular British YouTube instructors.

Most golfers will either continue to engrain bad habits in their swing or engrain new ones trying something they watch or read about.

[MacTourney]

There are indeed characters and 'strivers with drivers' at driving ranges.

I like to believe most will not need assistance from another but I also know that is a large divide to cross as people approach the game from many different places, directions,  talents, athleticism, goals, aspirations, motivations, and the like, and many generally lack what they need most- paying attention to process and outcome without being critical.     In line with this thread I would say to those folks instead of worrying about speed lets work on ball control first.
 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

30 minutes ago, MacTourney said:

There are indeed characters and 'strivers with drivers' at driving ranges.

I like to believe most will not need assistance from another but I also know that is a large divide to cross as people approach the game from many different places, directions,  talents, athleticism, goals, aspirations, motivations, and the like, and many generally lack what they need most- paying attention to process and outcome without being critical.     In line with this thread I would say to those folks instead of worrying about speed lets work on ball control first.
 

 

As Monte says people can’t walk right or even throw a ball properly. Thinking people can pickup a club and make a good swing based on ball control isn’t going to happen.

Despite being a decent athlete, my swing was self taught and it was a disaster despite hours on the range. Even with lessons it’s not as efficient as it can be.

 

[MacTourney]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

As Monte says people can’t walk right or even throw a ball properly. Thinking people can pickup a club and make a good swing based on ball control isn’t going to happen.

Despite being a decent athlete, my swing was self taught and it was a disaster despite hours on the range. Even with lessons it’s not as efficient as it can be.

 

There are those who fall prey to 'let's fix your slice or hook' advertisements and there are those that may embrace those shot patterns, as they are patterns.   I've seen several folks get to good swings quicker, as defined by a straighter shot,  going after ball control first, than pursuing swing first thinking it will lead to ball control later.    But to each their own. 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by MacTourney

[Goober]

On 8/24/2022 at 12:01 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

As Monte says people can’t walk right or even throw a ball properly. Thinking people can pickup a club and make a good swing based on ball control isn’t going to happen.

Despite being a decent athlete, my swing was self taught and it was a disaster despite hours on the range. Even with lessons it’s not as efficient as it can be.

 

Spot on post. If someone has little to no athletic ability than they have very little chance. Those are the ones who will always be searching for that magic feel. Or the ones who go crazy for the YouTube “ this secret will give you 50 yards” Mumbo jumbo. It’s just how it goes. Not being a prude, but this is a very hard game/ and the golf swing itself is a very precise athletic movement. It would be really wonderful if all golfers would be able to experience an round in the 80’s /70’s or even 90’s . Some just don’t have it in their dna 

[vandyland]

On 8/24/2022 at 12:01 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

As Monte says people can’t walk right or even throw a ball properly.

Just as an aside, I find Monte's teaching style and feels to line up very well with my game (so far). I am probably in the "waaaaay to early to start celebrating" phase but in two weeks of NTC my ball striking has gotten so much better. I am looking forward to hitting long irons which is....a new thing. 

Also, I watched his "Use the Bounce" series which is free despite the fact that my pitching and chipping is the strongest part of my game. He re-affirmed a few of my beliefs (so I won't be lead astray) and his bunker advice was exceptionally simple and I went 2/2 on sand saves this weekend (I'm probably a career 30-40% sand save guy, not a strength for me). He saved me $$$ because I was going to go back for in person lessons last month because my ballstriking was so bad. 

[Wildthing]

On 8/24/2022 at 4:52 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Have you been to a driving range lately. You can give people multiple hours across a week and they aren’t going to improve their swing and or results. 
 

I was watching guys on Sunday I see regularly at the range. Their swing a land ball flight look the same as it has over the last two years and they both watch several of the popular British YouTube instructors.

Most golfers will either continue to engrain bad habits in their swing or engrain new ones trying something they watch or read about.

You mean like the ABS swing technique you are promoting on another forum and mentioned on 'Be Better Golf'. Lol!   I should have known better than to read your posts.

Science Validates Erickson - Public Forum—Concepts in Advanced Ball Striking - Advanced Ball Striking Forum

Bigdad051972

17h

 

I’ve really broken apart John E’s swing for a few months now. After he came out with his Orbit Pull videos. And his latest videos of him rolling a ball off his club face at a low launch angle nailed it for me. That is the sign of what the greats did for control and major consistency. Why they got those long bacon strip divots as well. That was post acceleration mod right down to a tee. His swing starts at the ball into the finish. Where your pushing the impact bag with all your forces down the target line. The body oddly will do it’s thing supporting this move. Where everyone else is hitting up on their drives now and flipping like a mad man for high launch angles. With their whippy 53 inch shafts and offsetting 7 degree loft angle. He is doing the opposite. My bet is hogan was launching the ball at extremely low piercing launch angles doing this. Great explanation John, and great videos showing what your intents are. Sadly people just want to bomb and gouge it now a days. They all have this goofy stupid look on their faces when they cork one 300 way left or right. It’s the era of GET ER DONE. It’s what the industry is doing to make the game cool so the masses want to play. Where swinging like a true ball striker like yourself is tough to promote at times

--------------------------------

I see you repeated the same post here on the ABS forum too but left out the parts about buying Monte Scheinblums video (which would not go down well with ABS acolytes)

Bigdad051972

11h

 

You keep saying you don’t swing like a pro or not trying to swing like a pro, but yet you are studying the biomechanics of what the pros do so you can apply it to your swing. What they do isn’t applicable to you. Pros don’t swing like pros. Jim Furyk, Brooks Koepka, DJ, Rory, Viktor Hovland, Colin Moirkawa, John Rahm, Matt Wolff, Freddie Couples, Tony Finau, Cameron Champ.

They all swing differently. The pressures they have in the feet, how much their wrist moves, the amount of torque or forces they apply to a shaft, are all going to vary.

If you want to learn the biomechanics of the swing that’s great as it teaches how the body moves but we all have different bodies and leverages. You have to understand what your leverages are in order to figure out your swing.

You would probably be better off watching videos on the movement patterns good golfers make like a small shift off the ball to start and getting pressure to be around 70/30 on the trail leg, how to properly set the wrist and when to set it, how to turn the hips and get pressure back to 50/50 by lead arm parallel and to 70/30 front side by the top of the swing and leave it there then slowly increase it into impact. Learn how the wrists flex and release on the transition and the trail arm unfolds to help shallow the shaft.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

24 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

You mean like the ABS swing technique you are promoting on another forum and mentioned on 'Be Better Golf'. Lol!   I should have known better than to read your posts.

Science Validates Erickson - Public Forum—Concepts in Advanced Ball Striking - Advanced Ball Striking Forum

Bigdad051972

17h

 

I’ve really broken apart John E’s swing for a few months now. After he came out with his Orbit Pull videos. And his latest videos of him rolling a ball off his club face at a low launch angle nailed it for me. That is the sign of what the greats did for control and major consistency. Why they got those long bacon strip divots as well. That was post acceleration mod right down to a tee. His swing starts at the ball into the finish. Where your pushing the impact bag with all your forces down the target line. The body oddly will do it’s thing supporting this move. Where everyone else is hitting up on their drives now and flipping like a mad man for high launch angles. With their whippy 53 inch shafts and offsetting 7 degree loft angle. He is doing the opposite. My bet is hogan was launching the ball at extremely low piercing launch angles doing this. Great explanation John, and great videos showing what your intents are. Sadly people just want to bomb and gouge it now a days. They all have this goofy stupid look on their faces when they cork one 300 way left or right. It’s the era of GET ER DONE. It’s what the industry is doing to make the game cool so the masses want to play. Where swinging like a true ball striker like yourself is tough to promote at times

--------------------------------

I see you repeated the same post here on the ABS forum too but left out the parts about buying Monte Scheinblums video (which would not go down well with ABS acolytes)

Bigdad051972

11h

 

You keep saying you don’t swing like a pro or not trying to swing like a pro, but yet you are studying the biomechanics of what the pros do so you can apply it to your swing. What they do isn’t applicable to you. Pros don’t swing like pros. Jim Furyk, Brooks Koepka, DJ, Rory, Viktor Hovland, Colin Moirkawa, John Rahm, Matt Wolff, Freddie Couples, Tony Finau, Cameron Champ.

They all swing differently. The pressures they have in the feet, how much their wrist moves, the amount of torque or forces they apply to a shaft, are all going to vary.

If you want to learn the biomechanics of the swing that’s great as it teaches how the body moves but we all have different bodies and leverages. You have to understand what your leverages are in order to figure out your swing.

You would probably be better off watching videos on the movement patterns good golfers make like a small shift off the ball to start and getting pressure to be around 70/30 on the trail leg, how to properly set the wrist and when to set it, how to turn the hips and get pressure back to 50/50 by lead arm parallel and to 70/30 front side by the top of the swing and leave it there then slowly increase it into impact. Learn how the wrists flex and release on the transition and the trail arm unfolds to help shallow the shaft.

You got me confused wit someone else. I rarely post on any other forums and have zero to do with be better golf.

The only two forums I’m on are here and wrx.

So nice try but another fail on your part.

 

[Wildthing]

On 8/2/2022 at 8:34 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

You keep saying you don’t swing like a pro or not trying to swing like a pro, but yet you are studying the biomechanics of what the pros do so you can apply it to your swing. What they do isn’t applicable to you. Pros don’t swing like pros. Jim Furyk, Brooks Koepka, DJ, Rory, Viktor Hovland, Colin Moirkawa, John Rahm, Matt Wolff, Freddie Couples, Tony Finau, Cameron Champ.

They all swing differently. The pressures they have in the feet, how much their wrist moves, the amount of torque or forces they apply to a shaft, are all going to vary. 
 

If you want to learn the biomechanics of the swing that’s great as it teaches how the body moves but we all have different bodies and leverages. You have to understand what your leverages are in order to figure out your swing.

You would probably be better off watching videos on the movement patterns good golfers make like a small shift off the ball to start and getting pressure to be around 70/30 on the trail leg, how to properly set the wrist and when to set it, how to turn the hips and get pressure back to 50/50 by lead arm parallel and to 70/30 front side by the top of the swing and leave it there then slowly increase it into impact. Learn how the wrists flex and release on the transition and the trail arm unfolds to help shallow the shaft.

I bet you could learn more about the swing paying about $30 for one of Monte’s swing videos like no turn cast, broom force or the efficient said 

Need I add more!!!  Lol!!!

[RickyBobby_PR]

44 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

Need I add more!!!  Lol!!!

You are still wrong I am only on two forums and rarely post on wrx and I only glance they wrx once or twice a day to see if any interesting threads are new.

So if I’m positing on a forum it’s here. 

You can try to pin someone’s posts on me all you want but it’s not me and will never be me.