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Optimising Clubhead Speed - Is this the real way?


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15 minutes ago, MacTourney said:

It's a big part of it, yes.  🤣  I like to believe one can learn more during one hour in a vacant field with their own thoughts along with a couple balls and a stick rather than diving into the abyss of math and myth.  

Have you been to a driving range lately. You can give people multiple hours across a week and they aren’t going to improve their swing and or results. 
 

I was watching guys on Sunday I see regularly at the range. Their swing a land ball flight look the same as it has over the last two years and they both watch several of the popular British YouTube instructors.

Most golfers will either continue to engrain bad habits in their swing or engrain new ones trying something they watch or read about.

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There are indeed characters and 'strivers with drivers' at driving ranges.

I like to believe most will not need assistance from another but I also know that is a large divide to cross as people approach the game from many different places, directions,  talents, athleticism, goals, aspirations, motivations, and the like, and many generally lack what they need most- paying attention to process and outcome without being critical.     In line with this thread I would say to those folks instead of worrying about speed lets work on ball control first.
 

 

:macgregor-small:  :benhogan-small: :cobra-small:

 

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30 minutes ago, MacTourney said:

There are indeed characters and 'strivers with drivers' at driving ranges.

I like to believe most will not need assistance from another but I also know that is a large divide to cross as people approach the game from many different places, directions,  talents, athleticism, goals, aspirations, motivations, and the like, and many generally lack what they need most- paying attention to process and outcome without being critical.     In line with this thread I would say to those folks instead of worrying about speed lets work on ball control first.
 

 

As Monte says people can’t walk right or even throw a ball properly. Thinking people can pickup a club and make a good swing based on ball control isn’t going to happen.

Despite being a decent athlete, my swing was self taught and it was a disaster despite hours on the range. Even with lessons it’s not as efficient as it can be.

 

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

As Monte says people can’t walk right or even throw a ball properly. Thinking people can pickup a club and make a good swing based on ball control isn’t going to happen.

Despite being a decent athlete, my swing was self taught and it was a disaster despite hours on the range. Even with lessons it’s not as efficient as it can be.

 

There are those who fall prey to 'let's fix your slice or hook' advertisements and there are those that may embrace those shot patterns, as they are patterns.   I've seen several folks get to good swings quicker, as defined by a straighter shot,  going after ball control first, than pursuing swing first thinking it will lead to ball control later.    But to each their own. 

 

Edited by MacTourney

:macgregor-small:  :benhogan-small: :cobra-small:

 

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On 8/24/2022 at 12:01 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

As Monte says people can’t walk right or even throw a ball properly. Thinking people can pickup a club and make a good swing based on ball control isn’t going to happen.

Despite being a decent athlete, my swing was self taught and it was a disaster despite hours on the range. Even with lessons it’s not as efficient as it can be.

 

Spot on post. If someone has little to no athletic ability than they have very little chance. Those are the ones who will always be searching for that magic feel. Or the ones who go crazy for the YouTube “ this secret will give you 50 yards” Mumbo jumbo. It’s just how it goes. Not being a prude, but this is a very hard game/ and the golf swing itself is a very precise athletic movement. It would be really wonderful if all golfers would be able to experience an round in the 80’s /70’s or even 90’s . Some just don’t have it in their dna 

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On 8/24/2022 at 12:01 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

As Monte says people can’t walk right or even throw a ball properly.

Just as an aside, I find Monte's teaching style and feels to line up very well with my game (so far). I am probably in the "waaaaay to early to start celebrating" phase but in two weeks of NTC my ball striking has gotten so much better. I am looking forward to hitting long irons which is....a new thing. 

Also, I watched his "Use the Bounce" series which is free despite the fact that my pitching and chipping is the strongest part of my game. He re-affirmed a few of my beliefs (so I won't be lead astray) and his bunker advice was exceptionally simple and I went 2/2 on sand saves this weekend (I'm probably a career 30-40% sand save guy, not a strength for me). He saved me $$$ because I was going to go back for in person lessons last month because my ballstriking was so bad. 

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On 8/24/2022 at 4:52 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Have you been to a driving range lately. You can give people multiple hours across a week and they aren’t going to improve their swing and or results. 
 

I was watching guys on Sunday I see regularly at the range. Their swing a land ball flight look the same as it has over the last two years and they both watch several of the popular British YouTube instructors.

Most golfers will either continue to engrain bad habits in their swing or engrain new ones trying something they watch or read about.

You mean like the ABS swing technique you are promoting on another forum and mentioned on 'Be Better Golf'. Lol!   I should have known better than to read your posts.

Science Validates Erickson - Public Forum—Concepts in Advanced Ball Striking - Advanced Ball Striking Forum

I’ve really broken apart John E’s swing for a few months now. After he came out with his Orbit Pull videos. And his latest videos of him rolling a ball off his club face at a low launch angle nailed it for me. That is the sign of what the greats did for control and major consistency. Why they got those long bacon strip divots as well. That was post acceleration mod right down to a tee. His swing starts at the ball into the finish. Where your pushing the impact bag with all your forces down the target line. The body oddly will do it’s thing supporting this move. Where everyone else is hitting up on their drives now and flipping like a mad man for high launch angles. With their whippy 53 inch shafts and offsetting 7 degree loft angle. He is doing the opposite. My bet is hogan was launching the ball at extremely low piercing launch angles doing this. Great explanation John, and great videos showing what your intents are. Sadly people just want to bomb and gouge it now a days. They all have this goofy stupid look on their faces when they cork one 300 way left or right. It’s the era of GET ER DONE. It’s what the industry is doing to make the game cool so the masses want to play. Where swinging like a true ball striker like yourself is tough to promote at times

--------------------------------

I see you repeated the same post here on the ABS forum too but left out the parts about buying Monte Scheinblums video (which would not go down well with ABS acolytes)

You keep saying you don’t swing like a pro or not trying to swing like a pro, but yet you are studying the biomechanics of what the pros do so you can apply it to your swing. What they do isn’t applicable to you. Pros don’t swing like pros. Jim Furyk, Brooks Koepka, DJ, Rory, Viktor Hovland, Colin Moirkawa, John Rahm, Matt Wolff, Freddie Couples, Tony Finau, Cameron Champ.

They all swing differently. The pressures they have in the feet, how much their wrist moves, the amount of torque or forces they apply to a shaft, are all going to vary.

If you want to learn the biomechanics of the swing that’s great as it teaches how the body moves but we all have different bodies and leverages. You have to understand what your leverages are in order to figure out your swing.

You would probably be better off watching videos on the movement patterns good golfers make like a small shift off the ball to start and getting pressure to be around 70/30 on the trail leg, how to properly set the wrist and when to set it, how to turn the hips and get pressure back to 50/50 by lead arm parallel and to 70/30 front side by the top of the swing and leave it there then slowly increase it into impact. Learn how the wrists flex and release on the transition and the trail arm unfolds to help shallow the shaft.

Edited by Wildthing
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24 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

You mean like the ABS swing technique you are promoting on another forum and mentioned on 'Be Better Golf'. Lol!   I should have known better than to read your posts.

Science Validates Erickson - Public Forum—Concepts in Advanced Ball Striking - Advanced Ball Striking Forum

I’ve really broken apart John E’s swing for a few months now. After he came out with his Orbit Pull videos. And his latest videos of him rolling a ball off his club face at a low launch angle nailed it for me. That is the sign of what the greats did for control and major consistency. Why they got those long bacon strip divots as well. That was post acceleration mod right down to a tee. His swing starts at the ball into the finish. Where your pushing the impact bag with all your forces down the target line. The body oddly will do it’s thing supporting this move. Where everyone else is hitting up on their drives now and flipping like a mad man for high launch angles. With their whippy 53 inch shafts and offsetting 7 degree loft angle. He is doing the opposite. My bet is hogan was launching the ball at extremely low piercing launch angles doing this. Great explanation John, and great videos showing what your intents are. Sadly people just want to bomb and gouge it now a days. They all have this goofy stupid look on their faces when they cork one 300 way left or right. It’s the era of GET ER DONE. It’s what the industry is doing to make the game cool so the masses want to play. Where swinging like a true ball striker like yourself is tough to promote at times

--------------------------------

I see you repeated the same post here on the ABS forum too but left out the parts about buying Monte Scheinblums video (which would not go down well with ABS acolytes)

You keep saying you don’t swing like a pro or not trying to swing like a pro, but yet you are studying the biomechanics of what the pros do so you can apply it to your swing. What they do isn’t applicable to you. Pros don’t swing like pros. Jim Furyk, Brooks Koepka, DJ, Rory, Viktor Hovland, Colin Moirkawa, John Rahm, Matt Wolff, Freddie Couples, Tony Finau, Cameron Champ.

They all swing differently. The pressures they have in the feet, how much their wrist moves, the amount of torque or forces they apply to a shaft, are all going to vary.

If you want to learn the biomechanics of the swing that’s great as it teaches how the body moves but we all have different bodies and leverages. You have to understand what your leverages are in order to figure out your swing.

You would probably be better off watching videos on the movement patterns good golfers make like a small shift off the ball to start and getting pressure to be around 70/30 on the trail leg, how to properly set the wrist and when to set it, how to turn the hips and get pressure back to 50/50 by lead arm parallel and to 70/30 front side by the top of the swing and leave it there then slowly increase it into impact. Learn how the wrists flex and release on the transition and the trail arm unfolds to help shallow the shaft.

You got me confused wit someone else. I rarely post on any other forums and have zero to do with be better golf.

The only two forums I’m on are here and wrx.

So nice try but another fail on your part.

 

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On 8/2/2022 at 8:34 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

You keep saying you don’t swing like a pro or not trying to swing like a pro, but yet you are studying the biomechanics of what the pros do so you can apply it to your swing. What they do isn’t applicable to you. Pros don’t swing like pros. Jim Furyk, Brooks Koepka, DJ, Rory, Viktor Hovland, Colin Moirkawa, John Rahm, Matt Wolff, Freddie Couples, Tony Finau, Cameron Champ.

They all swing differently. The pressures they have in the feet, how much their wrist moves, the amount of torque or forces they apply to a shaft, are all going to vary. 
 

If you want to learn the biomechanics of the swing that’s great as it teaches how the body moves but we all have different bodies and leverages. You have to understand what your leverages are in order to figure out your swing.

You would probably be better off watching videos on the movement patterns good golfers make like a small shift off the ball to start and getting pressure to be around 70/30 on the trail leg, how to properly set the wrist and when to set it, how to turn the hips and get pressure back to 50/50 by lead arm parallel and to 70/30 front side by the top of the swing and leave it there then slowly increase it into impact. Learn how the wrists flex and release on the transition and the trail arm unfolds to help shallow the shaft.

I bet you could learn more about the swing paying about $30 for one of Monte’s swing videos like no turn cast, broom force or the efficient said 

Need I add more!!!  Lol!!!

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44 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

Need I add more!!!  Lol!!!

You are still wrong I am only on two forums and rarely post on wrx and I only glance they wrx once or twice a day to see if any interesting threads are new.

So if I’m positing on a forum it’s here. 

You can try to pin someone’s posts on me all you want but it’s not me and will never be me.

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You are still wrong I am only on two forums and rarely post on wrx and I only glance they wrx once or twice a day to see if any interesting threads are new.

So if I’m positing on a forum it’s here. 

You can try to pin someone’s posts on me all you want but it’s not me and will never be me.

 

 

 

image.png.0af6fe9ab5f4ad058635a535cd1c8bc8.png

 

 

See how you removed any mention of Monte's NTC swing instruction on the ABS forum. 

Edited by Wildthing
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9 hours ago, Wildthing said:

image.png.0af6fe9ab5f4ad058635a535cd1c8bc8.png

 

 

See how you removed any mention of Monte's NTC swing instruction on the ABS forum. 

I’ll say this one more time, it’s not me. I don’t even know what ABS is and I have never been on be better golf.

You do realize mgs is a public forum and someone can easily take what I write and copy and paste it elsewhere.

Also I would never use a screen name with bigdaddy in it.

I’m now going to back to not reading posts I have marked as ignored, and won’t be addressing this false claim of me posting or promoting anything on another forum or forums that I have never been on or nor do I care to be on.

 

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49 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I’ll say this one more time, it’s not me. I don’t even know what ABS is and I have never been on be better golf.

You do realize mgs is a public forum and someone can easily take what I write and copy and paste it elsewhere.

Also I would never use a screen name with bigdaddy in it.

I’m now going to back to not reading posts I have marked as ignored, and won’t be addressing this false claim of me posting or promoting anything on another forum or forums that I have never been on or nor do I care to be on.

 

This is what you said in one of your earlier posts:

--------------------------------------

"Imagine if he looked into what the greats like hogan, Snead, Jack, Norman and many others in those eras did that allowed them to be great ball strikers and some of the longest hitters. Or just looked into Bradley Hughes teaching which is based on what those guys did.

Jack said you can’t release early enough, but that also comes with a good turn. Basically the samething Monte and others reach about the trail arm and wrist along with the shifting of pressure into lead leg. All before technology allowed us to see what they did.

----------------------------------

Bradley Hughes is an ABS poster boy.

Bradley Hughes Golf Podcast- John Erickson | Bradley Hughes Golf Podcast (blubrry.net)

Time to ignore your posts from now on.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Confusing information found in 2 research articles by Dr Sasho MacKenzie

Here is Dave Tutelman website link:

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/swing/models3.php

Here is an optimised swing using Dr Mackenzie's model golfer.

MacK_torques.gif

Lead forearm rotation torque is the graph  M_Arm and there does seem to be a significant degree of angular impulse (which would be the area under the graph).  Angular impulse will cause a change in the angular momentum of the club but I'm unsure how this impacts clubhead speed.

Here is also a link to a golf research article dated 5th Jan 2012, where Dr MacKenzie is using the same model to investigate the following:

"Club position relative to the golfer’s swing plane meaningfully affects swing dynamics"

(PDF) Club position relative to the golfer's swing plane meaningfully affects swing dynamics (researchgate.net)

In that article he says the following:

"The clubhead speed at impact for Sim3 (44.1 m/s) was 24% higher than that generated during Sim4 (35.5 m/s; Table II). The optimization algorithm found the muscle coordination pattern that resulted in the highest clubhead speed at impact while also ensuring the clubface was square to the target line. The clubhead speed for Sim3 (44.1 m/s) was 22% higher than that generated during Sim1 (36.2 m/s), which indicates as to how much active rotation of the forearm from a muscular torque can contribute to clubhead speed"

Downswing scenarios for SIM1 and SIM3 .

"Sim1 started with the forearm angle set to -10 degrees (Figure 3a), which placed the center of mass of the club 7.3 cm below the golfer’s swing plane (Figure 3b)."

""For both Sim1 and Sim2, the forearm torque generator was set to zero for the entire downswing. In other words, the golfer model was not capable of actively supinating the forearm to square the clubface for impact"

""Simulation 3 (Sim3) was considered the reference condition, as the downswing swing was initiated with the shaft perfectly within the golfer’s swing plane and the optimization was conducted with all the torque generators available to supply energy to the system"

So, the above article, unless I've misinterpreted, seems to infer that active musculature forearm rotation (in this case the lead arm, which is given more torque capability than can be generated by a real human, to complement the missing right arm in the model) can increase clubhead speed by 22% versus a swing that does not use any musculature forearm rotation to square the clubface. 

Now we look at a more recent research article dated 11th June 2019 (or it could be the American date format 6th November 2019). 

http://www.rccssc.ca/pdf/How Golfers Generate Clubhead Speed.pdf

This article 7 yrs after that 1st article above says the following:

Linear Work predicts 90 % of the variability in CHS by itself

Angular Work adds extra 9% (does predict 44% if entered alone first)

 

So, if Linear Work predicts 90% variability in CHS, how can forearm rotation have increased clubhead speed by 22% in the previous research article?  

This seemed very confusing to me, so I looked at the SIM1 and SIM3 graphs

image.png.5228d31aebc2d8fab3172154bc2161b8.png

I'm assuming that in SIM3, because the MOI of the 'lead arm/club' unit is smaller about the rotational axis of the torso for a longer period, the 'lead arm/club' unit could therefore be angularly accelerated more by the torso torque generator until the 0.2sec mark  (when the lead wrist starts to unhinge)?  That this increased angular acceleration could account for most of that 22% increase in clubhead speed?

But my assumption above seems to be flawed because when you look at the clubhead speed for both SIM1 and SIM3 they seem to be the same until a point much later in the downswing when the slope of SIM3 graph gets steeper, which suggests a larger increase in clubhead acceleration compared to SIM1.

So, what is causing that steeper clubhead acceleration in the late downswing?  Is it a larger 'In Plane MOF' generated by SIM3 due to a late release & unhinging of the lead wrist or is it caused by an active musculature forearm rotation?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Wildthing
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  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

I was looking at this video (I've attached the .wmv)  on Dave Tutelman's site 

Ben Hogan, Lee Comeaux, and the Right Hand Hit (tutelman.com)

This gives an idea on how fast the wrists can uncock/unhinge using a light short PVC pipe so you can imagine the wrist actions would be somewhat slower if using a golf club such as a driver.  When the club releases due to 'eccentric' forces applied via the grip, the club angularly accelerates at such a rate that your wrists are unable to keep up, therefore they end up applying a negative hand couple at the grip end.

But what about lead forearm rotation when there is an angle between the club and forearm?  Can there still be a positive hand couple torque applied to create cylindrical pendulum motion while there still being a negative hand couple in a double-pendulum type rotation?

Edited by Wildthing
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It seems like your spinning your wheels young man.Confusion is the main reason for players struggling in this game.My suggestion is study Monty Scheinblumh.He seems to break down the golf swing into manageable parts.Maybe his wisdom might help you get out of your rut. 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Goober said:

It seems like your spinning your wheels young man.Confusion is the main reason for players struggling in this game.My suggestion is study Monty Scheinblumh.He seems to break down the golf swing into manageable parts.Maybe his wisdom might help you get out of your rut. 

Thanks for the suggestion but I find his instruction just an opinion with no evidence to support his theories. Also, what's that got to do with the question I posted?

By the way, his name is Monte Scheinblum , I'm not a young man and not in a rut. 

Rather than looking at 'magic moves' I suggest you invest a fair amount of time reading and trying to understand this article below:

https://perfectgolfswingreview.net/downswing.htm

Edited by Wildthing
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25 minutes ago, Goober said:

You can think about the golf swing with or without a club. I think your big holdup is trying to decipher it using both 

People are different; people learn differently, and sometimes people just want to learn.   @Wildthingis very interested in the physics behind the golf swing and wants to understand the theories behind what people are teaching.   I am the same about all things putting.  I want to understand the stroke, peoples movements patterns, and how the putter itself influences putting.   I like the details about putting and Wildthing likes the details about the full swing.   We just find those details interesting; why is that a bad thing?  Maybe it doesn't help us get better, but maybe that doesn't matter either. 

You talk about Monte's approaches to instruction;  his approach is good for some golfers and not good for others.  This applies to any swing tip or lesson that any person follows.  I could probably point you to instruction that works great for me but is terrible for you.  

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