Optimising Clubhead Speed - Is this the real way?

[Wildthing]

4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The right palm is going to go point at the ground. If it doesn’t he isn’t going to get into this position.

 

 

 

The images you've shown above is TW using a short iron. The swing mechanics of the short game is different to driving or full long irons.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 minute ago, Wildthing said:

 

The images you've shown above is TW using a short iron. The swing mechanics of the short game is different to driving or full long irons.

Really. You think that the mechanics change between a long and short iron?

Im out

[Wildthing]

Here is a video of TW's hands using a driver.

 

 

Here is Adam Scott

 

Gary Woodland

 

Note that their trail palms are not facing the ground approaching a few feet from impact and their trail forearms are still frankly supinated at impact. If they did pronate their trail forearms so that the palms were facing the ground, the club would topple over 'off plane' from a down the line view.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

56 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Picking quotes from some of the guys who are just starting with the ntc series or those who are barely into the change in their swing doesn’t support your case. Guys are making movement pattern changes and that doesn’t happen overnight or even a few months.

But once again I’ll post one of the best in the worlds swing and you can see he does exactly what the ntc series teaches.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CcIrF8XjHfD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

Wait but there’s another in Koepka (btw monte also points out his swing flaw, so all the other stuff about learning what the pros do, you have to pick a pro because like I said the all have differences in what they do based on their swing, but what they all do is add some amount of flexion in the lead wrist or if they choose the trial wrist then it’s extension, both work together)

https://www.instagram.com/tv/Cb-aUgXlrMy/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

But wait there’s even another long ball hitting in Bryson doing the same move

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEPXFpvFFzD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

Choosing various pro swings and then implying they are all doing this NTC technique is a big assumption. All I see is a kinematic sequence pelvis/torso/arms/club but if instructors wish to add their own ideas, that's fine too. 

This early cast is assumed to close the clubface and that may be true if ulnar deviation of the lead wrist causes flexion too, but there is no guarantee that will happen in all golfers. However, if the golfer used an active wrist coupling motion of ulnar deviation and flexion happening at the same time, it will cause supination of the forearm and close the clubface relative to the clubhead path. But the potential drawback is that the ulnar deviation will cause a loss of lag angle between club shaft and lead arm, which might cause early release issues. 

Personally, I'd rather use passive wrists in the golf swing with less tension and manipulation.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Wildthing

[MacTourney]

15 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Some of Monte Scheinblum's videos resonate with some but not with others.

Not at all unusual in golf instruction, or other teaching disciplines,  as we know beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

13 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Golfwrx are full of posters marketing Monte's or Tyler Ferrell instruction and if you raise a post debating their integrity, some of the 'shills' collaborate together to get you banned.

No doubt on this one, but some claim getting banned from GolfWRX might be a mark of distinction as it relates to the Instruction and Academy forum.    Instead of shills, more like proxy warriors.  Monte has some potential but is quite rough around the edges for my taste.

[MacTourney]

13 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Look at this AMG video

I don't know the difference between adduction or a duck's shins but it's fine for the trail arm to move inward, but again the video seems to be dissecting for the sake of dissecting, why, I have no idea.

 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

Couldn’t help it. Here’s another long ball hitter practicing ntc cast move. Btw it’s Finau.

Very simple. Some flexion of lead wrist or extension of trail wrist depending on what the golfer prefers to feel. Some in folding of the trail and turn.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CguWVzsFqvZ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Before that some movement away from the ball, could be very little and unnoticeable to some guys who move way off the back. Between the takeaway and club parallel wrist get set(amount varies by golfer. DJ and Couples are the extremes) and the trail hip moves back(Jack calls it the right packet back) and then around towards target as arms raise a little. Butt of the club points at or inside ball line(haven’t found a teacher who doesn’t teach this. 

Now I’m out 

[RollingGreens]

Their is no right way for everyone. Some don’t have enough modbility through their spine or shoulders/wrists to do these movements. Others don’t have the strength to make meaningful gains. Their are many variables why something does or doesn’t work. Once you make changes, equipment may need adjusted. Too many variables to be all in on one way. Their are too many theories to not take bits and pieces to make meaningful gains. Lifting, over speed training, and swing changes… many do not even have the ability to digest all the mechanical terms that go into the golf swing. 

[Goober]

First off. I have total respect for all golf teachers (both online or in person instructors). Sounds like it is such a competitive field to be in. You really have to develop a swing methodology that works well for all skill levels. Being a great communicator/listener/ and tremendous amounts of patience

when it comes to wild things posts. I would suggest practicing swings starting at hip high. Get in a semi squat move, have the face closed where it aligns with your spine, right elbow on right hip. From there thing right palm to target turning hard low and left with a feeling of the trail elbow frozen on your side until after impact.  That one drill really opened up my eyes to the rest of the golf swing.
 

not a bio mechanics wizard by any means. Keep it simple my friend  

[Wildthing]

8 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Couldn’t help it. Here’s another long ball hitter practicing ntc cast move. Btw it’s Finau.

Very simple. Some flexion of lead wrist or extension of trail wrist depending on what the golfer prefers to feel. Some in folding of the trail and turn.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CguWVzsFqvZ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Before that some movement away from the ball, could be very little and unnoticeable to some guys who move way off the back. Between the takeaway and club parallel wrist get set(amount varies by golfer. DJ and Couples are the extremes) and the trail hip moves back(Jack calls it the right packet back) and then around towards target as arms raise a little. Butt of the club points at or inside ball line(haven’t found a teacher who doesn’t teach this. 

Now I’m out 

Here is Adam Scott and Justin Rose and I don't see them doing this ntc move (ie. a little wrist casting action at the top of the backswing - to make the clubhead move up and back behind the golfer).

I'm sure I can find others.

 

[Wildthing]

Here is a video with Larry Rinker and Jon Sinclair .

I think the ntc 'move' is described by Jon Sinclair at 24:22- 25:21

 

Here is another video where he describes what I think is the ntc 'move' by Trevor Immelman at 24:00 -25:30

 

I'm assuming Monte has used this data to formulate his 'No Turn Cast' concept. Further, I am assuming Tyler Ferrell is also using this same data to create his 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' concept. 

Question 1 : Is NTC and 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' essentially the same but being named differently?

Question 2:  Can we really assume that this move is advantageous in some shape or form? Where is the evidence?

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Wildthing

[Chester3488]

On 5/19/2022 at 1:33 PM, IONEPUTT said:

I just watched the 16 minute video by Dr. Sasho Mackenzie and while I think i understood what he was saying I'm pretty sure I did NOT learn anything that I can take to the driving range to use to gain any clubhead speed. The Dr. provided lots of science but I'm not sure he provided any helpful infomation on HOW to swing the clubhead faster.  

 

This

[Wildthing]

On 8/9/2022 at 12:39 PM, Chester3488 said:

This

The Dr Sasho MacKenzie videos are basically showing the 'kinetics' of a golf swing which are the forces/torques involved.  It would be futile (nigh impossible) to try and teach a golfer to apply this amount of force/torque via his hands at this point in time in his golf swing. 

It just gives you a general idea that at the start of the downswing the club is being pulled more in the direction of the shaft to create clubhead speed. That any couple or torque applied to the grip via the hands is passive and the golfer must be wary of not using excessive musculature wrist torque (uncocking /casting action) which would cause clubhead speed too peak too early.  The golfer must also not try and hold lag with stiffer wrists to try and create a more energetic 'Release' later in the downswing because the timing needs to be impeccable. Get is slightly wrong and you will not optimise clubhead speed by impact.  Also having stiffer wrists means less capability to allow your club to be angularly accelerated by the 'In Plane Moment Of Force' (ie. compare a rusted joint to an oily one).

You should also be aware that approaching impact, the club's angular velocity is so large that the wrist joints (and therefore hands) cannot keep up. The club is essentially pulling on the hands (from an angular rotation perspective) which end up applying a negative torque on the grip, which causes even more forward shaft bend than is expected at impact.

Just that little piece of knowledge that I've mentioned above should raise 'warning signs' when you see some golf instruction videos recently published on 'Be Better Golf'.

 

This instructor is claiming he and several other pros like Lee Trevino, George Knudson, Ben Hogan all created lagging shaft flex approaching and through impact. This means they are claiming to apply positive torque on the grip (not the negative torque one would normally see on inverse dynamic graphs as shown in Dr Sasho MacKenzie's videos).

The instructor is also claiming that by maintaining lag tension (ie. lagging bend) and accelerating though impact (with a firmer grip) he can reduce dispersion for off-centre hits.  

He is claiming a 'Hitting' action is superior to a 'Swinging' action.

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 8/9/2022 at 6:55 AM, Wildthing said:

Question 1 : Is NTC and 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' essentially the same but being named differently?

Question 2:  Can we really assume that this move is advantageous in some shape or form? Where is the evidence?

#1 Well for the NTC what needs to be pointed out is that it’s two parts. The no turn which is a feeling and one actually turns but it’s caused by then arms and upper body moving the hips. This fixes what most amateurs have in either no turn or too much too early.

The cast A part is the reverse motorcycle move but is also unfolding if the trail arm. Then there’s is cast B which is the release. 
 

#2 there’s no need to assume it’s advantageous. It’s literally what every golf golfer does. The amount of added flexion and unfolding of the trail arm is going to vary by golfer. The move in of itself isn’t what’s advantageous it’s the combination of a proper turn in the downswing. Also that’s combined with proper pressure shifts in the swing. 
 

The thread you stated about the body doesn’t square the face is a perfect example of this happening. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

Here’s 4 videos how how the swing works. The application of all the biomechanics and what all the good ones do.

178-183 ball speed from an out of shape 50+ year old I would say is pretty good proof that the proper shift combined with cast A generates speed 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CfPDW0YlxRe/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CdBTqyqjTBH/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cam-GP6J6mQ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYPAO5_IKNJ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CVn1axEDHif/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[Goober]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Here’s 4 videos how how the swing works. The application of all the biomechanics and what all the good ones do.

178-183 ball speed from an out of shape 50+ year old I would say is pretty good proof that the proper shift combined with cast A generates speed 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CfPDW0YlxRe/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CdBTqyqjTBH/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cam-GP6J6mQ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYPAO5_IKNJ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CVn1axEDHif/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

That young man has a real nice motion 

[flyingwedges]

On 5/18/2019 at 7:15 AM, Wildthing said:

This is again for those mainly interested in the biomechanics of the golf swing (ie. what is going on rather than how). Just thought it might interest others who are trying to figure out what many of the pros are doing to drive that ball 300+ yards.

Lets use  DJ as an example about optimising clubhead speed.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/JohnsonHandArcPath.jpg

The secret to his high clubhead speed seems to fit in with physics.

1. From Image 1  to just before image 3  , he has somehow made biomechanical movements that have created a hand path on a 'straightish'  path (or an arc with a long radius).

2. Along this 'straightish' path , he has increased his hand speed as much as he can.

3. He has retained left 'wrist cock' angle (angle between shaft and forearm) from top of backswing to just before image 3  (where one can see the 'release' of that angle happening- increasing). Physics proves that more wrist cock before a 'natural' release , the faster the clubhead speed.

4. The 'natural release' of that angle happens due to 'pseudo CF forces', because he has performed biomechanical moves that change his hand path from straightish to a more curved path. His wrists just before image 3  act as oily hinges and he is basically letting the 'momentum' of the clubhead (ie. evoked by pseudo Centrifugal Forces) uncock his wrists (ie. a natural release).

A simple 'imperfect'  analogy of point 4 is like driving in a car (ie. your hands) on a straight road increasing your speed and then taking a very tight corner turn. Any objects (ie. the clubhead ) in the back seat will go sliding across the seat very fast. 

The counterintuitive part  is that his 'wrists/hands' end up actually restricting the 'angular velocity' of the clubhead because it is rotating faster than the hands can keep up.  This is proven by physics which says that forward shaft bend into impact means 'negative torque' at the hands (see image below).

 

So now we know what DJ's hands are doing , the puzzle is figuring out 'how' he is moving his body parts to create the dynamics and geometry of his 'hand speed/path'.

Obviously , the above is just about creating clubhead speed and not the biomechanics involved in squaring the clubface (a different matter altogether).

So has anyone got any ideas how DJ creates that straight path in the downswing?

PS.

I thought it would be a good idea to show the hand path of Bobby Jones (in red below) which shows a more circular hand path , where he also had an 'earlier' natural release. He couldn't replicate the hand path of DJ because of the limitations on the strength of hickory shafts . If he tried stressing the shaft  using  DJ's hand path (ie. straight path and then speedy acute 'corner turn') the shaft would have broken.

 

 

Science, it's what's for dinner  ! 

[Wildthing]

24 minutes ago, flyingwedges said:

Science, it's what's for dinner  ! 

It can also be very non-intuitive and frustrating to understand.

[Wildthing]

6 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Here’s 4 videos how how the swing works. The application of all the biomechanics and what all the good ones do.

178-183 ball speed from an out of shape 50+ year old I would say is pretty good proof that the proper shift combined with cast A generates speed 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CfPDW0YlxRe/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CdBTqyqjTBH/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cam-GP6J6mQ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYPAO5_IKNJ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CVn1axEDHif/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

I can't open these links for some reason.

I suppose you have to register on instagram to view them.

[flyingwedges]

On 8/8/2022 at 7:15 AM, Wildthing said:

 

The images you've shown above is TW using a short iron. The swing mechanics of the short game is different to driving or full long irons.

They are not.  I can and do hit wedges and 9 irons for practice, go to the first tee, and nail a driver, without a doubt.  Same body / shoulders / hips / hands / tendons / muscles.

Edited August 10, 2022 by flyingwedges

[Wildthing]

1 hour ago, flyingwedges said:

They are not.  I can and do hit wedges and 9 irons for practice, go to the first tee, and nail a driver, without a doubt.  Same body / shoulders / hips / hands / tendons / muscles.

So you use your longer game swing mechanics when you perform these shots?

• Pitches
• Pitch and Run
• Chips
• Chip In
• Bump and Run / Chip and Run
• Flop Lob
• Bunker Shots
• Blast Explosion
• Sandie Sandy
• Up and Down
• Putts
• Lags
• Off Green Putts

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

40 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

So you use your longer game swing mechanics when you perform these shots?

• Pitches
• Pitch and Run
• Chips
• Chip In
• Bump and Run / Chip and Run
• Flop Lob
• Bunker Shots
• Blast Explosion
• Sandie Sandy
• Up and Down
• Putts
• Lags
• Off Green Putts

 

This post is silly.

But pitches, chips, bump and run use the basic fundamentals of the swing with it being pivot driven. You would be surprised to find out that bunker shots use the same swing as a regular swing and one doesn’t have to have a different swing. Checkout use the bounce 2.0 or use the bounce bunkers on rebelliongolf.

But for full swings whether it’s a driver or a full swing wedge then mechanics are the same. The amount of shallowing of the shaft and the plane will change due to the length of the club but they all have the same movement pattern 

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Wildthing said:

 

I can't open these links for some reason.

I suppose you have to register on instagram to view them.

You actually don’t. If they don’t open automatically for you you could copy and paste into your browser 

[RickyBobby_PR]

Here’s Martin Chuck talking about shallowing. Watch the movement of his wrist and arms around the 2 min mark. It’s the same movement as cast a in ntc.

 

[Wildthing]

10 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

This post is silly.

But pitches, chips, bump and run use the basic fundamentals of the swing with it being pivot driven. You would be surprised to find out that bunker shots use the same swing as a regular swing and one doesn’t have to have a different swing. Checkout use the bounce 2.0 or use the bounce bunkers on rebelliongolf.

But for full swings whether it’s a driver or a full swing wedge then mechanics are the same. The amount of shallowing of the shaft and the plane will change due to the length of the club but they all have the same movement pattern 

Not sure what you mean by them having the same 'movement pattern'.

The vertical ground reaction forces are a 'barometer' of what the golfer is doing with the rest of his body during the golf swing. If the golfer has the same movement pattern than you would expect the ground reaction forces to have a similar pattern.  But that doesn't seem to be the case when you do a comparison of the graphs of dual force plate data for three  +1 hcp golfers (Driver vs 8 iron full swings). The blue graph is the trail leg force plate vertical force while the pink is for the lead leg vertical force. 

The left graph is for a Driver swing while the right is for an 8 iron for 3 subjects , Paul, David and Warren (all +1 hcp).

Seems clear to me that they show different patterns which in turn mean that their body movement patterns must also be different.

 

Here is the magnified image of Paul's Driver graph so you can see where the backswing/downswing phases are plus contact/impact point.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Not sure what you mean by them having the same 'movement pattern'.

The vertical ground reaction forces are a 'barometer' of what the golfer is doing with the rest of his body during the golf swing. If the golfer has the same movement pattern than you would expect the ground reaction forces to have a similar pattern.  But that doesn't seem to be the case when you do a comparison of the graphs of dual force plate data for three  +1 hcp golfers (Driver vs 8 iron full swings). The blue graph is the trail leg force plate vertical force while the pink is for the lead leg vertical force. 

The left graph is for a Driver swing while the right is for an 8 iron for 3 subjects , Paul, David and Warren (all +1 hcp).

Seems clear to me that they show different patterns which in turn mean that their body movement patterns must also be different.

 

Here is the magnified image of Paul's Driver graph so you can see where the backswing/downswing phases are plus contact/impact point.

 

 

You keep posting all this data and haven’t learned the actual golf swing. A golfer doesn’t create the same about of force with a scoring iron as driver because they are trying to control the iron shot.

The full swing is a shift to the trail leg early in the swing, wrist set between when the hands reach the trail leg and shaft parallel or lead arm parallel for those who set “early”, will be later for those that have a float load.

The hips rotate ~15° from when when the hands reach trail leg to shaft parallel. Another ~15° to lead arm parallel there is some inertial rotation of the lead arm from shaft parallel to lead arm parallel and the shoulders have turned about twice as much as the hips. By time lead arm is parallel the good golfers are back to 50/50 pressure and by top of the swing which is just them finishing the turn from lead arm parallel they are getting to 70/30 onto the lead leg.

Transition and into downswing is added flex in the knees regaining flex at the waist and some added lead side bend.

The trail arm straightens some as the lead wrist gains some amount of flexion(varies by golfer). Trail arm has gone into some external rotation as well and the golfer is turning hips and torso at the same time. While the golfer is now starting to push thru the lead leg gaining  in pressure from that 70% going towards 100 towards impact.

Thats the motion for all full swings. The amount of pressure will change due to the club length and where pressure starts. With shorter irons the initial pressure on lead leg will be closer to 60% whereas with driver it will be between 30-40%.

Based on side tilts at address pressure is going to shift towards the side where the tilt is. A wedge and short iron is only going to have a couple degrees of side tilt towards trail leg where driver is going to be closer to 10° therefore pressure is going to start higher with driver in the trail leg.

[Wildthing]

17 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You keep posting all this data and haven’t learned the actual golf swing. A golfer doesn’t create the same about of force with a scoring iron as driver because they are trying to control the iron shot.

The full swing is a shift to the trail leg early in the swing, wrist set between when the hands reach the trail leg and shaft parallel or lead arm parallel for those who set “early”, will be later for those that have a float load.

The hips rotate ~15° from when when the hands reach trail leg to shaft parallel. Another ~15° to lead arm parallel there is some inertial rotation of the lead arm from shaft parallel to lead arm parallel and the shoulders have turned about twice as much as the hips. By time lead arm is parallel the good golfers are back to 50/50 pressure and by top of the swing which is just them finishing the turn from lead arm parallel they are getting to 70/30 onto the lead leg.

Transition and into downswing is added flex in the knees regaining flex at the waist and some added lead side bend.

The trail arm straightens some as the lead wrist gains some amount of flexion(varies by golfer). Trail arm has gone into some external rotation as well and the golfer is turning hips and torso at the same time. While the golfer is now starting to push thru the lead leg gaining  in pressure from that 70% going towards 100 towards impact.

Thats the motion for all full swings. The amount of pressure will change due to the club length and where pressure starts. With shorter irons the initial pressure on lead leg will be closer to 60% whereas with driver it will be between 30-40%.

On the contrary, I have learned about the kinematics of the golf swing as they form part of the study of biomechanics. If you are really interested in delving deeper into the kinematics of the golf swing (including how body parts are being moved) then you should consider visiting this website which has 1000's of pages of information (I've read most of it)

Perfect Golf Swing (perfectgolfswingreview.net)

Check the downswing chapter which has been updated over the years as and when new research data can influence the content.

I'm assuming you haven't learnt the kinetics of the golf swing which is why you have problems with the data I post.

 

[Wildthing]

Here is Dr Jeff Mann's recent analysis of the No Turn Cast concept.

--------------------------------

In this post, I am going to analyse Monte Scheinblum's (MS's) "no-turn cast" swing technique and I will explain why I think that it represents sub-optimal golf instruction.

I am unwilling to waste $30 to purchase MS's 16-part video series on the "no-turn cast" swing technique, but I believe that I can still clearly understand MS's "no-turn cast" opinions based on watching a number of videos and after reading this GolfWRX thread - forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1756226-montes-new-no-turn-cast/

 

The term "no-turn" refers to his opinions on how to perform the backswing action, and I will not discuss the "no-turn" topic in this post because it is not irrational, and I can generally agree with his basic intention/instruction. I am only going to discuss what MS states should happen in the early downswing between P4 => P6

 

MS states that one needs to position the clubhead and clubface in a proper position during the transition so that the body can react appropriately. It would seem that a major focus of MS's "proper positioning" opinions is based on the idea that one should keep the club's COM behind the hands during the early-mid downswing.

 

Here is an introductory video by MS on this topic.

 

Here is a capture image from the video.

Note the drawn clock where the 12 o'clock position is oriented towards the target.

 

Note that MS's club is oriented roughly towards 8 o'clock when he is reaching the P6 position, and that it is ~45 degrees angled back and not parallel to the ball-target at P6. In other words, it shows how much MS wants the club's COM to be kept behind the hands during the P4 => P6 time period. 

 

The following Instagram-based video best shows how MS performs the early-mid downswing action using his "no-turn cast" methodology.

 

www.instagram.com/reel/CeGss5DjwO3/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

I will now analyse this video.

 

 

In the first part of the video, he presents a close-up view of his wrist/hand action at the start of the downswing.

 

Note that is performing the reverse motorcycle manoeuvre with a degree of twistaway - where he palmar flexes his lead hand while it is radially deviated and that causes the club handle to twist clockwise around its longitudinal axis. He is simultaneously moving his lead wrist very slightly in an ulnar direction during his palmar flexion manoeuvre so that it becomes slightly less radially deviated. Also, note how his trail wrist becomes more extended as the clubshaft becomes slightly more shallowed-out secondary to his lead wrist actions.  

 

Here are capture images from a DTL perspective

 

Image 1 is at the P4 position, image 2 is at the P4.5 position, image 3 is at the P5 position, and image 4 is at the P6 position (when the clubshaft is parallel to the ground).

 

Note how MS is radically shallowing the clubshaft between P4 => P6 in an exaggerated off-plane manner where an imaginary extension line drawn-out from the butt end of the club at P5 will point well outside the ball-target line. Note that it requires a lot of lead forearm pronation and a lot of trail forearm supination to get to that off-plane P5 position where the clubshaft is being excessively shallowed-out.

 

Note that he is not assertively adducting his trail upper arm between P4 => P5 and that his trail elbow is not below his lead elbow at P5. That is going to result in a trail elbow straightening action between P5 => P6 that will cause a significant loss of clubhead lag by P6.

 

Note how his clubshaft is not parallel to the ball-target line at his P6 position and it is angled much too far inside.

 

Note how the lead wrist bowing/twistaway manoeuvre causes his clubface to become slightly closed relative to his clubhead path by P5.

 

Note how much he has ulnar-deviated (uncocked) his lead wrist between P4 => P6.

 

Capture image from a face-on perspective.

 

 

 

Image 1 is P4 and image 2 is at P6.

 

I don't object to his P4 position where he has a ~50-degree pelvic rotation and a ~90-degree upper torso rotation, where he has an intact LFFW that is seemingly on-plane, and where his RFFW is correctly positioned relative to his intact LFFW.

 

However, look at his P6 position where there are so many sub-optimal biomechanical features. Note how high his trail elbow is positioned relative to his trail hip area due to a very sluggish trail upper arm adduction manoeuvre and a very sluggish pitch motion of his trail elbow. Those sub-optimal biomechanical actions, which when combined with an excessive amount of ulnar-deviation motion of his lead wrist and an excessive trail elbow straightening action, causes him to lose a lot of his clubhead lag angle by P6.

 

Note that the back of his trail hand is facing skywards at P6 due to an excessive clubshaft shallowing action (involving an exaggerated amount of lead forearm pronation) that caused his clubshaft to move off-plane between P4 => P6.

 

Note how his clubshaft is angled too much inside at his P6 position, and it is not parallel to the ball-target line.

 

I do not object to the bowed lead wrist technique (as an alternative to the intact LFFW swing technique) and I only object to MS's excessive shallowing action that produces an off-plane motion of the clubshaft between P4 => P6 and that causes the clubshaft to be angled much too much inside at the P6 position.

 

If one wants to use the bowed lead wrist technique, then I think that one should use Dustin Johnson as a role model.

 

Consider DJs P4 => P6 golf swing action as viewed from a DTL perspective

 

 

Image 1 is at P4, image 2 is at P5, and image 3 is at P5.5.

 

The red splined path represents DJ's hand arc path. Note that DJ shallows his clubshaft between P4 => P5.5 and that keeps his club's COM behind his hands during his early-mid downswing. However, DJ does not shallow his clubshaft excessively and he keeps his clubshaft continuously on-plane (where an imaginary line drawn-out from the butt end of the club continuously points at the ball-target line) between P4 => P5.5.

 

Note how assertively DJ adducts his trail upper arm between P4 => P5 and that causes his trail elbow to be positioned well below his lead elbow at P5. Note how DJ's trail elbow is positioned in an optimum pitch elbow position in front of his trail hip at P5.5 and that he has retained the ~90 degree trail elbow bend angle at P5.5, which allows him to retain his clubhead lag angle to a much better degree than seen in the MS capture images.

 

Note that the back of his lead hand is more vertical at P5.5 (compared to MS's lead hand at a similar position) because he did not shallow his clubshaft excessively.

 

Here is another DTL capture image of DJ which includes his P6 position.

 

Image 3 is at his P6 position. Note that the clubshaft is parallel to the ball-target line, and it is not angled too much inside.

 

Consider DJs' P4 => P5.5 early-mid downswing action as viewed from a face-on perspective

Image 1 is at P4, image 2 is at P5, and image 3 is at P5.5.

 

The red splined path represents his hand arc path.

 

Note how assertively DJ adducts his trail upper arm between P4 => P5 and that his trail elbow is positioned well below his lead elbow at P5. Note how he continues to assertively adduct his trail elbow between P5 => P5.5, while performing a pitch elbow motion of his trail elbow, and that gets his trail elbow well positioned in front of his trail hip area by P5.5.

 

Note that he is not excessively shallowing his clubshaft between P4 => P5.5 due to excessive lead forearm pronation (as seen in the MS capture images) and that the back of his lead hand is more vertical at P5.5.

 

In conclusion, I much prefer DJ's clubshaft shallowing action where he keeps the clubshaft continuously on-plane between P4 => P6 and where he ends up at P6 with his clubshaft parallel to the ball-target line and where he has not lost a lot of his clubhead lag angle due to excessive trail elbow straightening between P5 => P6 (as seen in the MS capture images).

 

Jeff.

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

On the contrary, I have learned about the kinematics of the golf swing as they form part of the study of biomechanics. If you are really interested in delving deeper into the kinematics of the golf swing (including how body parts are being moved) then you should consider visiting this website which has 1000's of pages of information (I've read most of it)

Perfect Golf Swing (perfectgolfswingreview.net)

Check the downswing chapter which has been updated over the years as and when new research data can influence the content.

I'm assuming you haven't learnt the kinetics of the golf swing which is why you have problems with the data I post.

 

I don’t care about how much pressure, torque, rotational forces get applied in a swing.

I care about what the movement patterns are and how to make them in the swing as well as how to fix faults.

What I explained above is the sequence of the swing. It’s what instructors teach and is what’s beneficial when looking at video to diagnose what’s going wrong on the swing.

 

Heres two videos of Sergio with driver and a partial wedge. Due to the length of the wedge shot he doesn’t have to shallow the club as much as a full swing but you can see the body moves in similar patterns 

 

https://youtu.be/B0ojOEwiMHE

 

https://youtu.be/xxbCQaOtUL0

 

to the topic of how to optimize club head speed. It’s very simple. Shift off the ball, have a good sequence in the swing, recenter and get pressure to lead side with a good sequence in transition and rotate.

Whatever one wants to do in the swing in the transition they need to have that intent before the swing gets to lead arm parallel. The swing is 1/2 over at this point and from the top of the swing it’s ~.25 seconds to impact.

 

[Wildthing]

12 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I don’t care about how much pressure, torque, rotational forces get applied in a swing.

I care about what the movement patterns are and how to make them in the swing as well as how to fix faults.

What I explained above is the sequence of the swing. It’s what instructors teach and is what’s beneficial when looking at video to diagnose what’s going wrong on the swing.

 

Heres two videos of Sergio with driver and a partial wedge. Due to the length of the wedge shot he doesn’t have to shallow the club as much as a full swing but you can see the body moves in similar patterns 

 

https://youtu.be/B0ojOEwiMHE

 

https://youtu.be/xxbCQaOtUL0

 

to the topic of how to optimize club head speed. It’s very simple. Shift off the ball, have a good sequence in the swing, recenter and get pressure to lead side with a good sequence in transition and rotate.

Whatever one wants to do in the swing in the transition they need to have that intent before the swing gets to lead arm parallel. The swing is 1/2 over at this point and from the top of the swing it’s ~.25 seconds to impact.

 

The difference between how we think about the golf swing is you prefer to just look at positions, movement patterns, pressure shifts but I prefer to know the reasons how and why we do them.

For example, if a student asked the instructor why do I need a full body turn what would be your answer? What is the purpose of the full body turn?

What is the optimal way to move the pelvis?

What is the optimal way to create ground reaction forces to generate angular momentum in the golfer's body /swing?

How does the golfer move his ribcage in the downswing?

How does the golfer move his arms in the downswing?

How does the golfer create space for his arms to swing in front of his lower and upper body?

What is the role of the right arm in the golf swing?

What is the role of the left arm in the golf swing?

How does a golfer keep his swing 'On Plane'

How does a golfer square the clubface?

How does a golfer create clubhead speed?

How does the spine move in the golf swing?

What are the optimal hand release actions?

What are the different arm release actions?

All of the above (and much more) is in that website link I posted.