Jump to content

Optimising Clubhead Speed - Is this the real way?


Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Here is the graph that Dr Scott Lynn produced which contradicts Dr Sasho MacKenzie's graph that I recently posted.

image.png.74c6626b6c9d7132a51ae4370d35fa8a.png

 

There isn't any large correlation compared to Dr MacKenzie's graph, so I asked him why.

Here is his reply:

-------------------------------------------

 "I don’t know much about Scott’s data, but I’m not surprised by the results.  I’ve plotted this graph from about 5 different data sets over the years.  Correlations have ranged from about .65 to .91.   The graph below was the highest I’ve seen.

My data has been from a heterogenous group of golfers.  From the graph you can see that I had players swinging below 80 mph.  Scott’s data is all PGA Tour players.  It is less likely to find high correlations in a homogenous sample.  There would be little correlation between height and points per game in the NBA. Yet, we know height is really important in basketball.

Each of the dots in my graph represents the average of many swings by each participant.  I’m not sure how many swings Scott measured per dot."

----------------------------------------------

 

From a personal opinion, I am more inclined to believe that Dr Mackenzie's graph seems more reliable.

 

Edited by Wildthing
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

Here is the graph that Dr Scott Lynn produced which contradicts Dr Sasho MacKenzie's graph that I recently posted.

image.png.74c6626b6c9d7132a51ae4370d35fa8a.png

 

There isn't any large correlation compared to Dr MacKenzie's graph, so I asked him why.

Here is his reply:

-------------------------------------------

 "I don’t know much about Scott’s data, but I’m not surprised by the results.  I’ve plotted this graph from about 5 different data sets over the years.  Correlations have ranged from about .65 to .91.   The graph below was the highest I’ve seen.

My data has been from a heterogenous group of golfers.  From the graph you can see that I had players swinging below 80 mph.  Scott’s data is all PGA Tour players.  It is less likely to find high correlations in a homogenous sample.  There would be little correlation between height and points per game in the NBA. Yet, we know height is really important in basketball.

Each of the dots in my graph represents the average of many swings by each participant.  I’m not sure how many swings Scott measured per dot."

----------------------------------------------

 

From a personal opinion, I am more inclined to believe that Dr Mackenzie's graph seems more reliable.

 

Comfirmation bias

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Here is an interesting set of tests (devised by Mike Adams/EA Tischler) to determine a golfer's unique leg dominance test. I did mention that research found 2 categories of golfers , Front Foot and Reverse Group but the tests shown below by Dr Scott Lynn using force/pressure plates seems far more useful to 'dial' into your optimal weight pressure shift. I also suspect that this can assist with your ball position placement.

Then look at the 3rd video where they found out the pattern that fitted Molinari the best and created drills for him to help sync up his horizontal/torque/vertical grfs. The improvement in his distance and dispersion seems quite impressive.

This is (imho) where golf biomechanical research can be practically used to help discover the best way to improve a golfer's swing mechanics that suits his/her own body capabilities.

 

 

Edited by Wildthing
Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Goober said:

These posts are informative. But how in the world would one supply this vast amount of info into a casual 18 hole round? So much overkill 

One couldn’t. The information rom Sasho and others are studies that the publish. The normal consumer is anyone who is a golf instructor wanting more info on biomechanics to utilize in their teaching. Or those interested in learning about the swing.

One has to be able to take the data and be able to apply it to the golf swing and how they teach and communicate with their students, or just absorb it if they aren’t a teacher. But even then if you can’t apply it to what you see in a persons swing then it’s just more information that’s not serving a purpose 

  • Like 3

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

One couldn’t. The information rom Sasho and others are studies that the publish. The normal consumer is anyone who is a golf instructor wanting more info on biomechanics to utilize in their teaching. Or those interested in learning about the swing.

One has to be able to take the data and be able to apply it to the golf swing and how they teach and communicate with their students, or just absorb it if they aren’t a teacher. But even then if you can’t apply it to what you see in a persons swing then it’s just more information that’s not serving a purpose 

Everything always has a time and place. But most of this is overwhelming 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Goober said:

Everything always has a time and place. But most of this is overwhelming 

Pretty much a thread like some others to post what he’s read mostly from Sasho and then what others say when given thoughts about the actual movement in the swing.

Saw an Instagram story from AMG yesterday or Friday demonstrating the the arm movement In the transition and combining it with a turn. It was the same move that Monte teaches in cast a from the ntc video series.

  • Like 1

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Pretty much a thread like some others to post what he’s read mostly from Sasho and then what others say when given thoughts about the actual movement in the swing.

Saw an Instagram story from AMG yesterday or Friday demonstrating the the arm movement In the transition and combining it with a turn. It was the same move that Monte teaches in cast a from the ntc video series.

I have to check out that no turn cast drill. Monte sounds like a good chap 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Goober said:

These posts are informative. But how in the world would one supply this vast amount of info into a casual 18 hole round? So much overkill 

They wouldn't, its much ado about nothing much in the grand scheme of things, even for instructors that may use sight and sound primarily over radar, pressure plates, and other such luxuries, but I have no doubt the art v. science debate will continue as long as the game does.

  • Like 2

:macgregor-small:  :benhogan-small: :cobra-small:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Goober said:

I have to check out that no turn cast drill. Monte sounds like a good chap 

If you are still taking lessons I would focus on what your instructor is having you do and it bring in outside thoughts, concepts.

Monte is a former long drive champion and a top teaching pro. 

  • Like 2

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Some of Monte Scheinblum's videos resonate with some but not with others.

For example, what he says in this video about the body squaring the club is at odds with what AMG state and doesn't make sense when you look at 3D graphs of tour pro golfers.

 

The squaring of the clubface is mainly lead forearm rotation and not the body pivot.

The 'No Turn Cast' drill is a strange approach where he is assuming a golfer will do the correct movements when being instructed not to do some other movement, which might work for some but not for others.

The casting aspect is where he is purposely instructing the golfer to cast from the top and is opining that the golfer will end up doing the correct movement!!!

 

From a purely physics perspective, attempting to use active firing of wrist torque to release your wrist angles will slow your arm swing and not speed them up.

 

 

Edited by Wildthing
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

The 'No Turn Cast' drill is a strange approach where he is assuming a golfer will do the correct movements when being instructed not to do some other movement, which might work for some but not for others.

The casting aspect is where he is purposely instructing the golfer to cast from the top and is opining that the golfer will end up doing the correct movement!!!

You might want to go spend sometime on his Instagram and check out the cast a drill which I’ve posted several times in various threads or spend the money to buy the no turn cast video series. This way you will see that he’s expanded on this video and teaches the no turn part and the cast a and b.

Btw there’s also a 70 page thread on wrx with a bunch of people who have had success using this original video as well as the video series. Not to mention numerous reviews of people who have worked with Monte over the years that have made significant improvements in their game and their swing.

  • Sad 1

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You might want to go spend sometime on his Instagram and check out the cast a drill which I’ve posted several times in various threads or spend the money to buy the no turn cast video series. This way you will see that he’s expanded on this video and teaches the no turn part and the cast a and b.

Btw there’s also a 70 page thread on wrx with a bunch of people who have had success using this original video as well as the video series. Not to mention numerous reviews of people who have worked with Monte over the years that have made significant improvements in their game and their swing.

You said on another thread that AMG and Monte work together and teach the same concepts like the 'no turn cast'. I've just posted 2 videos where their beliefs about squaring the clubface are polar opposites. 

Golfwrx are full of posters marketing Monte's or Tyler Ferrell instruction and if you raise a post debating their integrity, some of the 'shills' collaborate together to get you banned.

Why would I buy a video that has no evidence to back it up apart from the obvious favourable reviews? Prove to me that the no cast drill has improved the mechanics of most of the people who bought Monte's videos. Show me your before and after swing for example.

PS. AMG also ban people who raise comments on their you-tube videos if they dispute some of their cause-and-effect opinions.

Edited by Wildthing
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Look at this AMG video which was analysed by Dr Jeff Mann.

9:00 - 9:30 minute time point of the video where Mike Granato states that it is a "killer move" to actively adduct the right arm towards the right side of the right mid-upper torso between P4 and P5.5 and to actively drive the right elbow to a pitch location in front of the right hip area by P5.5/P6. They both claim that this "killer move" is not seen in pro golfers.

Here are three examples of pro golfers who actively adduct their right arm close towards the right side of their mid-torso during their early-mid downswing and who have their right elbow in a pitch location near the front of their right hip area at P5.5/P6.

 

DJ / Cameron Champ /Sergio Garcia

image.png.48ff37c93e744784817ba4f8df8c6ea5.png

Edited by Wildthing
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Here's another AMG video

 

Again, they are suggesting a drill where the trail palm faces the ground and that is not what is happening in tour pro golf swings. The trail forearm is actually supinating, not pronating until just before impact.

Look at these 3 golfers as an example where the right palm is not facing groundward, and their forearms are supinating.

Adam Scott, Justin Rose and Rory McIlroy

image.png.2d0f7689c32f4f4fb5f677e5a23c3cce.png

 

And guess what? AMG went full circle and created another video below. Spot the difference between the 2 videos.

PS.

looks like they've 'climbed on board' the TGM concept of 'Flying Wedges' as per the Lynn Blake video I previously posted. 

Edited by Wildthing
Link to comment
Share on other sites

92118F3A-E22C-4256-95C0-424DE702F9E0.jpe
 

where do you think tiger’s right palm is going to go?

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've looked at some recent posts from the Golfwrx 'No Turn Cast' thread and just published a few below that didn't work for several golfers. So, it's not some new and universal way to create better swing mechanics for all golfers who use this instruction.

To be fair, there are many posts where golfers said they have improved so it's up to the individual if they wish to pursue this technique.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Been hitting slight chunks over draws, pull draws and pulls in the beginning. Saw Monte's post that this may happen and to work through the process let the body react don't give up.

Driver is still in an unplayable state, either hit it with massive top spin and get it barely into play with a 100 yard dive or 45 degrees off the face and lost into the woods 50 yards to the right. Iron play is the best it's been in my life, but every range session I've been shanking 1/4 bucket worth of drives waiting on a breakthrough.

The feeling of casting from the top has increased my swing speed by ~5 mph.  I have noticed however that I have a slightly out-to-in clubpath (~-2°). Just wondering if there is a drill that can be done with the "cast" feeling to get more of an inside-out swing path? Try to hit some good ol' push hooks?

When I feel like I'm swinging the driver exactly like my irons, I'm hitting a huge pull hook or completely failing to get the ball off the ground.

Couldn't match the success with driver

Has anyone doing the NTC run into consistent slices/fades? Using Trackman I repeatedly see this, where the club face is open at impact and the club path is left.

How many have lost speed while working on the NTC? I lost about 5mph on my 7i and closer to 10mph on my driver.

When I first started with NTC I got some pretty bad wrist tendonitis

----------------------------------------------------

In my opinion the No Turn Cast drill seems reminiscent of the very old Leslie King instruction but without the active casting action (which he thought was sub-optimal). 

See some extracts of Leslie King instruction below:

 

image.png.e93103c40cf2d1ffaa569e269f5dc242.png

 

 

image.png.008982c1b8e95ed4ce0dfa4b2d7b0273.png

 

image.png.3e9da7170180da35584c63527d6e7ce3.png

 

It is quite possible to “throw out” from the top and yet maintain a good line into the ball. However, since power has been released early, it is almost certain that the point of release will vary with each swing. Hence, shots with the same club will vary in length as the point of “release” varies. A caddie will find it difficult to club you correctly. In short, throwing-out makes for weak shots of variable length. It also causes hitting the ground before the ball is struck. 

Now, maintaining the shoulders in the fully turned position, we simply commence the downward swing of the left hand and arm. That is how the downswing starts, and nothing could be simpler!

I stress again, the shoulders must remain in the fully turned position at the beginning of the downswing! The same left foot action that has “charged” the hands with power is enabling us to control the shoulders.
By keeping the shoulders fully turned the left hand and arm can swing freely from the left shoulder, taking the club-head down into the ball on a club line that will result in a swing into and along the line of flight through impact.

image.png.1ccd2b82ceb44df8a63c216bd4f15367.png

 

Hold your shoulders in the fully turned position as the left hand and arm begins to swing down – this ensures good club line through the ball

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

92118F3A-E22C-4256-95C0-424DE702F9E0.jpe
 

where do you think tiger’s right palm is going to go?

 

 

I would suspect it still continues to supinate to about approximately the yellow club shaft position (as per image below) before it starts to pronate a bit. 

The right forearm will still be in a state of supination by impact.

image.png.8ec95492bbe36476d7e5d9bf3e4f903a.png

 

Here is the 3D graph data of tour pros trail wrist rotation. It's difficult to see, but MD (MID-Downswing) position is P6 as per TW's image above. The red arrow in the image below is moving over the MD position as it crosses the zero axis but the trail wrist is still supinating to approximately  a few feet before impact (maybe P6.7).

SinclairRightForearmSupinationTwo.jpg

 

 

 

image.png

Edited by Wildthing
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

I've looked at some recent posts from the Golfwrx 'No Turn Cast' thread and just published a few below that didn't work for several golfers. So, it's not some new and universal way to create better swing mechanics for all golfers who use this instruction.

To be fair, there are many posts where golfers said they have improved so it's up to the individual if they wish to pursue this technique.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Been hitting slight chunks over draws, pull draws and pulls in the beginning. Saw Monte's post that this may happen and to work through the process let the body react don't give up.

Driver is still in an unplayable state, either hit it with massive top spin and get it barely into play with a 100 yard dive or 45 degrees off the face and lost into the woods 50 yards to the right. Iron play is the best it's been in my life, but every range session I've been shanking 1/4 bucket worth of drives waiting on a breakthrough.

The feeling of casting from the top has increased my swing speed by ~5 mph.  I have noticed however that I have a slightly out-to-in clubpath (~-2°). Just wondering if there is a drill that can be done with the "cast" feeling to get more of an inside-out swing path? Try to hit some good ol' push hooks?

When I feel like I'm swinging the driver exactly like my irons, I'm hitting a huge pull hook or completely failing to get the ball off the ground.

Couldn't match the success with driver

Has anyone doing the NTC run into consistent slices/fades? Using Trackman I repeatedly see this, where the club face is open at impact and the club path is left.

How many have lost speed while working on the NTC? I lost about 5mph on my 7i and closer to 10mph on my driver.

When I first started with NTC I got some pretty bad wrist tendonitis

----------------------------------------------------

In my opinion the No Turn Cast drill seems reminiscent of the very old Leslie King instruction but without the active casting action (which he thought was sub-optimal). 

See some extracts of Leslie King instruction below:

 

image.png.e93103c40cf2d1ffaa569e269f5dc242.png

 

 

image.png.008982c1b8e95ed4ce0dfa4b2d7b0273.png

 

image.png.3e9da7170180da35584c63527d6e7ce3.png

 

It is quite possible to “throw out” from the top and yet maintain a good line into the ball. However, since power has been released early, it is almost certain that the point of release will vary with each swing. Hence, shots with the same club will vary in length as the point of “release” varies. A caddie will find it difficult to club you correctly. In short, throwing-out makes for weak shots of variable length. It also causes hitting the ground before the ball is struck. 

Now, maintaining the shoulders in the fully turned position, we simply commence the downward swing of the left hand and arm. That is how the downswing starts, and nothing could be simpler!

I stress again, the shoulders must remain in the fully turned position at the beginning of the downswing! The same left foot action that has “charged” the hands with power is enabling us to control the shoulders.
By keeping the shoulders fully turned the left hand and arm can swing freely from the left shoulder, taking the club-head down into the ball on a club line that will result in a swing into and along the line of flight through impact.

image.png.1ccd2b82ceb44df8a63c216bd4f15367.png

 

Hold your shoulders in the fully turned position as the left hand and arm begins to swing down – this ensures good club line through the ball

 

Picking quotes from some of the guys who are just starting with the ntc series or those who are barely into the change in their swing doesn’t support your case. Guys are making movement pattern changes and that doesn’t happen overnight or even a few months.

But once again I’ll post one of the best in the worlds swing and you can see he does exactly what the ntc series teaches.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CcIrF8XjHfD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

Wait but there’s another in Koepka (btw monte also points out his swing flaw, so all the other stuff about learning what the pros do, you have to pick a pro because like I said the all have differences in what they do based on their swing, but what they all do is add some amount of flexion in the lead wrist or if they choose the trial wrist then it’s extension, both work together)

https://www.instagram.com/tv/Cb-aUgXlrMy/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

But wait there’s even another long ball hitting in Bryson doing the same move

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEPXFpvFFzD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

 

I would suspect it still continues to supinate to about approximately the yellow club shaft position (as per image below) before it starts to pronate a bit. 

The right forearm will still be in a state of supination by impact.

image.png.8ec95492bbe36476d7e5d9bf3e4f903a.png

 

Here is the 3D graph data of tour pros trail wrist rotation. It's difficult to see, but MD (MID-Downswing) position is P6 as per TW's image above. The red arrow in the image below is moving over the MD position as it crosses the zero axis but the trail wrist is still supinating to approximately  a few feet before impact (maybe P6.7).

SinclairRightForearmSupinationTwo.jpg

 

 

 

image.png

The right palm is going to go point at the ground. If it doesn’t he isn’t going to get into this position.

 

 

0CA23367-18FF-41C6-9C3E-4CFF1BB109E4.jpeg

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...